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rusthebuss

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As for those building our skyscrapers, I am one of them. My wage has stayed the same the past 2 years because of illegal imigration, no matter what country they come. Why would you pay someone a living wage when when you can get someone to do it cheaper. They take jobs from people in the inner cities who need to make a decent wage to get off the system. Illegal imigration keeps these wages artificially low and at the same time drive up the cost of health insurrance, social security, auto insurrance, etc.. something must be done!

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Why build a fence? Just build a wall... it worked in China.

Or maybe Bush should invade Mexico next...

And what about outsourcing jobs to other countries? It's still cheap labor but Bush backs that.

Edited by Cadeho
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They should go after the employers of these illegals. If I owned a company and knew that they couldn't touch me for hiring illegals then what is it that will deter me from that cheap labor force? But if I faced seizure of my property and assets, then I would think otherwise before hiring someone with questionable documentation.

The whole outsourcing thing is different. It's the globalized World that is causing this phenom to occur. An American manufacturing plant has to pay higher union wages and benefits, which causes the cost of their widgets to rise. China Co can make those same widgets for half the cost as its American counterpart. Due to extremely low labor costs. Only when there is some sort of state sponsored tariffs or subsidies is there really a violation with regards to international organizations such as the WTO. In china's case they sponsor most state enterprises and they manipulate their currency (yuan) to give their industrial base an edge up on American and Western manufacturers. Bush needs to push harder for economic reforms in China to help our workers at home.

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They should go after the employers of these illegals. If I owned a company and knew that they couldn't touch me for hiring illegals then what is it that will deter me from that cheap labor force? But if I faced seizure of my property and assets, then I would think otherwise before hiring someone with questionable documentation.

The whole outsourcing thing is different. It's the globalized World that is causing this phenom to occur. An American manufacturing plant has to pay higher union wages and benefits, which causes the cost of their widgets to rise. China Co can make those same widgets for half the cost as its American counterpart. Due to extremely low labor costs. Only when there is some sort of state sponsored tariffs or subsidies is there really a violation with regards to international organizations such as the WTO. In china's case they sponsor most state enterprises and they manipulate their currency (yuan) to give their industrial base an edge up on American and Western manufacturers. Bush needs to push harder for economic reforms in China to help our workers at home.

The reason the Chinese build widgets is they are very hard to make or easy to make depending on your perspective. :whistling:

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Illegals are depleting our welfare system and Social Security.

I really don't see how this could be possible. In order to collect social security, you have to have a social security number, you have to be legitimate. Illegals don't pay income taxes but they also don't get social security. There isn't a social security check drive through where anyone who wants money just pulls up and makes a withdrawal from the U.S. treasury. As for welfare, I'm sure that some welfare money is going to illegals, but once again, if someone isn't a US citizen, it is difficult to go through the process of applying for welfare without the necessary documentation.

Children of illegals are going to school though and hospitals provide emergency care to anyone who comes through their doors, legal or illegal. There is a cost to that. Security is also a concern. Wages for many industries are stagnant as cost of living rises. But this is not a problem caused by the liberals. It is caused by the emerging global economy that powerful business interests have been pushing for. This isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. I'm relatively anti-free trade, but that doesn't make me a liberal or a democrat, many republicans oppose free trade and many democrats support it.

Businesses make higher profits with cheap labor and weak environmental regulations and as long as big business controls politics, we will continue to have droves of immigrants coming here, legally or otherwise. Building a fence or a wall won't solve the problem (although it might be a good idea in some areas). The border is too vast to effectively secure it without bankrupting the country.

In my opinion, the immigration debate will escalate and change the political system as we know it. We will have to analyze the role our county plays in the interconnected problems of the global economy. We are reaping what we sow, there is a cost to everything, including low prices at Wal-Mart. We can't demand cheaper goods and higher profits without an equal cost ie. illegal immigration, crime, losing american jobs, global environmental desecration. This is essentially a new version of the same system that has existed since the beginning of humanity. A small minority of elites control all institutions to maximize their profits while the rest of the population sees little reward or even suffers as a result. The difference now is that its on a global scale and 'Joe American worker' and 'Illegal emigrant Juan' are part of the same powerless population at the mercy of the global business elite.

Welcome to the new global economy :w00t:

Edited by mclawsdrive
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That sucks, I hadn't heard about that.

But honestly it seems like more of a problem with the government being succeptible to fraud than a specific problem with illegal immigrants. A lot of people work under the table (especially in the restaurant, house cleaning and child-care industries. Couldn't these people (most of whom are u.s citizens, get SS checks just like illegals? i guess I'll have to read about the details how this fraud is occuring.

I think there are two separate issues here, both of which are problematic to our country's well-being. one is illegal/legal immigrants who are willing to work for far lower wages than most americans. The other is employers willing to pay workers under the table, therefore stealing tax dollars (in potential revenue) from law abiding citizens who must pay higher taxes to make up the difference.

Obviously, part of the solution to this problem is to make sure all employees are paying taxes and are documented. I guess thats the idea of the guest worker program. Otherwise employers would just keep hiding their illegal employees, fearing they'd get deported and they wouldn't have cheap labor anymore.

And I think the other argument might be that it would be nearly impossible and very expensive to try to track down and deport all 11 million illegal immigrants already here; Especially when many businesses would be willing to break the law and help hide their employees. The hope would be that it would be easier to track the illegals and make them pay taxes by somehow legitimizing their presence here.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the guest worker program, just speculating on the justifications for it.

Edited by mclawsdrive
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That sucks, I hadn't heard about that.

But honestly it seems like more of a problem with the government being succeptible to fraud than a specific problem with illegal immigrants. A lot of people work under the table (especially in the restaurant, house cleaning and child-care industries. Couldn't these people (most of whom are u.s citizens, get SS checks just like illegals? i guess I'll have to read about the details how this fraud is occuring.

I think there are two separate issues here, both of which are problematic to our country's well-being. one is illegal/legal immigrants who are willing to work for far lower wages than most americans. The other is employers willing to pay workers under the table, therefore stealing tax dollars (in potential revenue) from law abiding citizens who must pay higher taxes to make up the difference.

Obviously, part of the solution to this problem is to make sure all employees are paying taxes and are documented. I guess thats the idea of the guest worker program. Otherwise employers would just keep hiding their illegal employees, fearing they'd get deported and they wouldn't have cheap labor anymore.

And I think the other argument might be that it would be nearly impossible and very expensive to try to track down and deport all 11 million illegal immigrants already here; Especially when many businesses would be willing to break the law and help hide their employees. The hope would be that it would be easier to track the illegals and make them pay taxes by somehow legitimizing their presence here.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the guest worker program, just speculating on the justifications for it.

There are valid points for both sides but upsets me is that the people trying to come to this country the legal way and now they are going to give people that came to this country illegally citizenship before the people doing the right thing. We have a habit of rewarding people for breaking the law.

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This entire debate is a touchy one. People who are in favor of some sort of amnesty are looked upon as being to easy on lawbreakers and beholdened to business interests. On the otherhand, folks trying to crack down are branded as being mean spirited. You'll never win this argument from both sides of table's viewpoint. I personally will take the side of doing something to stop this practice known as illegal imigration. We should build a wall in the urban areas with dense populations of folks eager to get to the other side. We must go after their potential employers...if there's no supply of jobs then the imigrant demand will drop off. And lastly, our government needs to go after those who come here legally and then over stay their visas. If they went after their sponsors then more people would obey the rules. I've known too many legal immigrants who spent many dollars and much time filing out paperwork and paying lawyers to watch a bunch of criminals get head of the line priviledges. Remember this, we have no requirement to offer jobs to the people of other countries, even in the most squalor of conditions we are not responsible for things in their countries. I think that is more of a moral issue, we should do our part to help on a humanitarian basis, but not legal. It burns me to see these demonstrators holding signs written in spanish, holding Mexican flags, who are in our country telling us that we must allow them into this country to work. Who are they to tell my government what it should or shouldn't do? I can't go to England and over stay my visit and then tell them that they must allow me to stay because my family is getting rich due to the remitances that I'm sending home. Many come here for a better life, which I applaud. Some come here for the money and that is something I can't stand. They care not for our country and don't bother to learn the language or bother to fit in. This is my rant, let me have it if you care to, I'm open to fair debate.

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Only a few blocks... not the whole city!

No one wanted to see Atlanta when it was a pile of rubble...

And he couldn't see the city during the war and he certainly didn't venture into the south before the war! So it was safe after the city was back in US posession. :)

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So that the Roanoke retail and stores thread isn't hijacked anymore, I'll carry on an off-topic discussion from there, here.

I'm going to disagree that the state promotes Richmond for business more than it does any other part of the state.

The Virginia Economic Development Partnership Website is devoted to promoting Virginia for business expansion, relocation, and other economic purposes. Peruse it if you want.

I found it particularly interesting to check out the News Center, where one can find all of their economic development press releases. It seems to have a pretty fair cross section of the state.

It's seems to me that much of the state's energy seems focuses on helping to improve the economic vitality of Southwest/Southside Virginia. That's definitely a good thing and something I hope becomes more successful.

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So that the Roanoke retail and stores thread isn't hijacked anymore, I'll carry on an off-topic discussion from there, here.

I'm going to disagree that the state promotes Richmond for business more than it does any other part of the state.

The Virginia Economic Development Partnership Website is devoted to promoting Virginia for business expansion, relocation, and other economic purposes. Peruse it if you want.

I found it particularly interesting to check out the News Center, where one can find all of their economic development press releases. It seems to have a pretty fair cross section of the state.

It's seems to me that much of the state's energy seems focuses on helping to improve the economic vitality of Southwest/Southside Virginia. That's definitely a good thing and something I hope becomes more successful.

I'm not going to get into it with you Coupe anymore cause everyone complains about me so don't worry about it

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  • 2 weeks later...

Y'all coupes right Richmond doesn't have the best bussiness in the state. Richmond only looks that way because you want it to or its because Richmond the capital and you think all politicans are slick to focus on one city. To me it looks like VB get all the attention.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Y'all coupes right Richmond doesn't have the best bussiness in the state. Richmond only looks that way because you want it to or its because Richmond the capital and you think all politicans are slick to focus on one city. To me it looks like VB get all the attention.

How does VB get all of the attention?

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  • 5 months later...

I hope everyone votes tomorrow. What does everyone think about ballot question #3? It expands on the local governments ability to provide incentives to those who build or improve in redevelopment, rehabilitation, or conservation(not trees) areas. Just thought I'd bring this up since our area is undergoing some serious redevelopment in some places. Out of curiosity, where does everyone stand on the other two questions?

1)Marriage

2)Church Incorporation

3)Development Incentives

(I'd turn this into a poll, but I don't know how.)

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I hope everyone votes tomorrow. What does everyone think about ballot question #3? It expands on the local governments ability to provide incentives to those who build or improve in redevelopment, rehabilitation, or conservation(not trees) areas. Just thought I'd bring this up since our area is undergoing some serious redevelopment in some places. Out of curiosity, where does everyone stand on the other two questions?

1)Marriage

2)Church Incorporation

3)Development Incentives

(I'd turn this into a poll, but I don't know how.)

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