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Encore has to wait...


it's just dave

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I don't disagree with your thoughts in general, but I do disagree in this instance that the Encore is ugly, and that it will loom over the Schermerhorn and that that's uncool. The Encore may be bland but is also could be just understated and classy, which I think given its proposed location is a good thing. Like i've stated before, the great thing about urban environments is variety and a sort of visual overload that comes with so many architectural styles and sizes and people and stuff crammed together in a small space. A specific example is the presbyterian church on the corner of 5th and Church. It's a magnificent building that is in no way diminished by being surrounded by skyscrapers (baby skyscrapers?).

I totally agree with you. I personally beleive surrounding the Schermerhorn with tall building will not diminish the building in the least. By their own contrast these taller buildings will emphasize the architectural stle and beauty of the Schermerhorn. The concert hall's low height ensures that it can never stand out in the overall skyline of Nashville, so it really doesn't matter how tall the building's built around it are. Mid-rise structures would block views of it just as much. I think your example of the Presbyterian church on Church St is a perfect example of what we're talking about.

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Yes, it is frustrating, Its not everyday that Nashville has a developer like Tony G that's very aggressive in building large scale buildings in downtown. If a high rise cant go in downtown, where else can it go?

So Bo area is rip for this type of development. Excelent views of the skyline probably the best. Views of the street life of Broadway. The baseball stadium and the Cumberland River.

In all, the city needs to open the doors wide open to the notion that being a big growing city is a good thing. Developers like Tony G have a vision of what a true complete downtown could be with the help of more residences and retail downtown.

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I totally agree with you. I personally beleive surrounding the Schermerhorn with tall building will not diminish the building in the least. By their own contrast these taller buildings will emphasize the architectural stle and beauty of the Schermerhorn. The concert hall's low height ensures that it can never stand out in the overall skyline of Nashville, so it really doesn't matter how tall the building's built around it are. Mid-rise structures would block views of it just as much. I think your example of the Presbyterian church on Church St is a perfect example of what we're talking about.

I am not sure that "skyline" views are actually the goods at stake regarding the Encore's controversial height. Rather, we are concerned about the actual streetscape views enjoyed or despaired by people on the ground in the city. A high-rise erected across the street from the Paris Opera House, or Dresden's Semperopera, or London's St. Martin-in-the-Fields, or the National Capitol in D.C. or any other building of high public profile that is embellished by fine detail in the grand manner and painstakingly scaled and articulated on all sides, would simply be a nasty breach of decorum that would diminish and parody the human-scaled beauty so critical to a successful public realm.

It is not the Schermerhorn's future cameo on aerial-photo postcards which is the issue. It is the nature of the streetlife. Tall buildings on their own do not produce urbanity, and certainly not beauty, despite the fact that their sheer size entrances and captivates many good people. A street lined by attractive seven-story buildings can produce as much a sense of enclosure and place as a shadow-soaked canyon floor entombed by sheer walls of unembellished glass-and-steel. Case in point: Paris is more pleasant than downtown Detroit. Bruges (Brugge) is lovelier than downtown Houston. Savannah is much nicer than downtown Cleveland.

The Egyptian Revival Presbyterian Church on Church Street (ha) is not served by the high-rises. It looks like a spot the Corbusier-worshipping Urban Renewalists accidentally missed. It concerns me that so many of Nashville's civic-minded young intellectuals are as entranced by the skyscraper as was the wrecking-ball addicted techno-worshippers who gutted American cities in the sixties and seventies. The Swiss architect Le Corbusier proposed the demolition of large swathes of Paris, to be replaced by towers and freeways. The people there laughed him out of town. We were not so smart.

I will always be grateful to Mr. Giarratana for putting a grocery store in the ground floor of the Viridian. I think he will leave Nashville a better place than he found it. But the Encore is too high...and at the very least, too bland and cheap-looking. A Home Depot could also be described as "toned down" and "restrained," but it would still actually just be a building with absolutely nothing to say. The renderings I have seen of the Encore suggest that is mumbling something-or-other about "Art Deco" or "Postmodern Boredom", but I am afraid it will have to be a great deal more eloquent if we are to be justified in allowing it to change the civic conversation begun by the much more articulate Schermerhorn. I do not mean to be a grouch, but the building is simply inappropriate.

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I don't remember much about my old architecture class at Vandy, but I remember that Mies intended for his glass boxes to reflect the variety of elegant architectural styles surrounding it.

Of course, like everything new and fresh, we Americans took the International style too far, and every street corner in the downtown areas of every major city had a glass box. The 70s took this a step further by using gag-o-matic reflective glass for "energy efficiency". Unfortunately, most larger Southern cities were jumping on this bandwagon.

So I can understand the reaction against mirror glass among you guys. However, I think this is a perfect latter-day application of Mies' idea. The Schermerhorn would have a great reflection off the Encore.

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Are you sure this is reflective glass? I know that SunTrust Plaza will have it, but I'm not sure about the Encore. It just looked blue, to me. I may be wrong, though.

Good question. I had assumed it, but I don't know for sure. It looks like it in the rendering.

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I don't remember much about my old architecture class at Vandy, but I remember that Mies intended for his glass boxes to reflect the variety of elegant architectural styles surrounding it.

Of course, like everything new and fresh, we Americans took the International style too far, and every street corner in the downtown areas of every major city had a glass box. The 70s took this a step further by using gag-o-matic reflective glass for "energy efficiency". Unfortunately, most larger Southern cities were jumping on this bandwagon.

So I can understand the reaction against mirror glass among you guys. However, I think this is a perfect latter-day application of Mies' idea. The Schermerhorn would have a great reflection off the Encore.

I am not sure if I am getting this right...the idea is that a good building like the Schermerhorn, which is full of architectural language and well-expressed symbolism and structural articulation, can have an idiot for a neighbor as long as that idiot repeats what the Schermerhorn says?

So, an appropriate response to an intelligent and dignified statement is to simply repeat it with gaping mouth, distorted and louder? Why don't we stick some Jumbotrons on the side of the Encore, and CCTV some rotating closeups of the Schermerhorn all up and down the plasma-screen facade?

Why is it so hard to gather a consensus that a detailed, human-scaled, elegant building would be more appropriate across the street from what will likely be the least incompetently designed public classical building in two generations?

The Encore should, at the sidewalk line, rise no higher than six stories. If it must go higher, the remaining stories should be significantly set back from the street, on all sides or at least the side facing the Schermerhorn. The basic elevation thus resulting would then enable the Novare Group to construct a sensible, profitable, dignified building. Whether they would design one or not, I don't know. But the urban design issues here are about as common sense as they get. Considering the amount of land being reserved for Encore Part Two (is that an encore Encore?), I don't see why they don't cut the building height down, cover the whole site, use some classical principles like symmetry and embellishment and decorum and then sell the units for lots of money. This is a wasted opportunity for both Giarratana, Novare, the Nashville Symphony, and the whole of Middle Tennessee. No amount of abstracted thinking on architecture or urbanism is going to change the fact that a generic corporate office-tower-gone-condo super block presenting a sheer face to the Schermerhorn could do anything but insult all parties.

I apologize for my eagery-beavery gusto, but this is important stuff, and unlike many development opportunities in Nashville this one has some real potential for a world-class moment that is about to be squandered.

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Can someone post a link to the rendering of the Encore?

I am not sure if I am getting this right...the idea is that a good building like the Schermerhorn, which is full of architectural language and well-expressed symbolism and structural articulation, can have an idiot for a neighbor as long as that idiot repeats what the Schermerhorn says?

So, an appropriate response to an intelligent and dignified statement is to simply repeat it with gaping mouth, distorted and louder? Why don't we stick some Jumbotrons on the side of the Encore, and CCTV some rotating closeups of the Schermerhorn all up and down the plasma-screen facade?

Why is it so hard to gather a consensus that a detailed, human-scaled, elegant building would be more appropriate across the street from what will likely be the least incompetently designed public classical building in two generations?

The Encore should, at the sidewalk line, extent no higher than six stories. If it must go higher, the remaining stories should be significantly set back from the street, on all sides or at least the side facing the Schermerhorn. The basic elevation thus resulting would then enable the Novare Group to construct a sensible, profitable, dignified building. Whether they would design one or not, I don't know. But the urban design issues here are about as common sense as they get. Considering the amount of land being reserved for Encore Part Two (is that an encore Encore?), I don't see why they don't cut the building height down, cover the whole site, use some classical principles like symmetry and embellishment and decorum and then sell the units for lots of money. This is a wasted opportunity for both Giarratana, Novare, the Nashville Symphony, and the whole of Middle Tennessee. No amount of abstracted thinking on architecture or urbanism is going to change the fact that a generic corporate office-tower-gone-condo super block presenting a sheer face to the Schermerhorn could do anything but insult all parties.

I apologize for my eagery-beavery gusto, but this is important stuff, and unlike many development opportunities in Nashville this one has some real potential for a world-class moment that is about to be squandered.

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What a debate this has turned out to be. Geez. Over a freakin design no less. Look. Downtown Nashville is full of classical designs like the Capital, War Memorial, etc. The symphony hall is no different, but does the tall structures around the afore mentioned buildings take away from them? Not really. Look at the street level and gauge from there. I doubt anyone will give a rats arse about the building when they pass by on the interstate. Not that we shouldn't care, but what difference is it going to make when you have a building cattie-corner from it that looks like a giant piano?

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During the zoning meeting, a street called Almond kept coming up. In all my years of exploring downtown Nashville, I don't recall ever even knowing that, one, a street named Almond existed, or two, where it was. Almond plays an important role in this discussion.

Today, for the first time in my life, I walked on Almond Street. Today, it's not much more than an alley that runs smack dab into the Demonbreun St. side of the Schermerhorn. There are so entrances or exits on this side of the building, but beautiful in form nonetheless with its function serving mainly as an anchor on the street.

If you'll study the rendering, and I'm not sure if this is the most recent or not, the 7 story structure with the streetside shops face Almond Street...that little street that may as well not exist at this point. It was until today that I realized that those shops were not on 3rd, but on a little street I didn't know was there. Anyone driving down Almond will not have an obstructed view of the SC, but will not that undoubtedly something stately lies just ahead. Those leaving the shop doors and turning right will have the Symphony Center in their sites. The tower itself is very narrow and is positioned to be the width of a very narrow part of the SC itself. One can only see this if actually standing there. Tony has worked long and hard to already make concessions to this, and I feel he'd done a commendable job.

If one were 300 ft. tall, standing in SoBro, maybe, just maybe, this tower would obstruct the view. Otherwise, we, as little bitty people, will have a sweet street treat before us.

The biggest challenge before us is not the Encore, but Encore 2, which if placed too closely to 4th Avenue and has a wall 20 stories tall would create a possibly damaging view of the Schermerhorn's magnificent columned courtyard area and fountain. The 4th Avenue streetscape including the new Gateway Blvd, the Hampton Suites, etc. is the total re-working of that part of the city.

The tall tower portion of the building that will sit at 3rd is somewhat at downtown's back door, next to the SC's back door and loading docks. This will create a different theme, but not a bad one by any means.

I agree with your concerns New Towner, but I think the concerns should be directed at not this tower that's proposed, but the next one. The empty lot in the rendering is the one that should face the ultimate scrutiny.

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Dave, your Almond Street deal confused the heck out of me. What is it? Can you drive on it? Is there anything on it right now? Will there be shops in the Encore that will face it? In relation to the Encore development as a whole (both towers, if the second one will ever exist), where is it? Does it split them in half? I'm confused.

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If I'm correct almond street would run right down the middle of Encore 1&2. Its not really a street its more of an alley. I dont think either one of these towers would hurt the views of the SC. IMO the best view of the SC will come from 4th avenue. I think the Encore would be great for this property that is currently an eye sore. Hopefully they will pass the SPV next go round.

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Why is it so hard to gather a consensus that a detailed, human-scaled, elegant building would be more appropriate across the street from what will likely be the least incompetently designed public classical building in two generations?

Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Accordingly, the opinions of what little we've seen of the Encore are subjective.

I think what most here on the board are arguing is that the BZA shouldn't simply nix this project b/c it's 35 feet higher than the recommended height. Regardless, the zoning allows far more than the six floors (70-80 ft) you'd like to see.

It appears that the initial design has been submitted to the board. If the BZA agrees with TG, then he'll get his building. If they don't then he may build the same building, but 35 feet shorter. I think its design is beside the point in this context.

BTW: I think one of the coolest vistas in Nashville is that looking westward up Deaderick at the War Memorial Auditorium with the blandly modern Tennessee Tower looming behind it. I think that's what Mies meant with his statement.

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I've got to agree with NewTowner on this one. My problem with seeing this project is that you're putting a 20+ story tower in the middle of a district of existing 2-3 story structures and parking lots. I think its a scale issue. Look at how the Renaissance seems diconnected at certain viewpoints of downtown. The only problem with this is how far removed it is from other liked-size structures.

I know this section of town is going to grow, but I feel we need more mid-rises (6-10 stories) to come in that area. Once a few of those have been built, then maybe 20 won't feel like such a sore thumb.

On another point, does everyone love the Viridian that much that they don't mind a copy of it? At first look at some of the presentations, I wandered if they took model shots from the Viridian and popped them onto this site. All one needs to do is go by the Viridian now and see how it relates to Church Street to see that it won't provide anything to engage the street level. The first 7 or 8 stories is parking garage and won't show any life/ activity.

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By the way, I'm pretty sure the phase 2 part of the Encore has been nixed. There's only going to be the one tower, the thin side will face the Schermerhorn, not the long side. NewTowner, I would like to hear you elaborate on the conversation that's being started by the Schermerhorn.

In the December 18, 2005 edition of the Tennessean an article was published called "Symphony Center facade comes alive with the sight of music" which focused on the astonishingly significant sculptural and architectural language which will flow from the Schermerhorn. The article paid special attention to the classical sculptures which Ray Kaskey is creating for the building's North pediment. It is a fantastic little piece and I would recommend it to anyone who likes reading.

Dave, the new details you have illuminated regarding the Encore's siting sounds like there may be hope for at least something in the way of dignity. The tower is designed to correspond in east-west width with a portion of the Schermerhorn? Maybe all is not lost. I still say the building ought to step back after the first four or six stories (for the experience on the street, obviously...think the Target headquarters on Nicolet Mall in Minneapolis) but I am obviously pretty alone here. Almond street sounds interesting...I would check it out myself if I wasn't "stuck" here in Savannah at the moment. If the Encore's shops face it, we might have a cozy little corridor in the making, with a nice terminating vista. Is the Schermerhorn on axis with Almond in any meaningful way?

ATLBrain, I don't mean to be a stinker, but the whole "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is old-hat Postmodernist relativist stuff--which isn't to say that it isn't true--but it simply doesn't apply when the interests of a classical building are at stake. According to the principles of classicism (firmness, utility, beauty) there are defined and concrete visual ingredients to real beauty. This beauty is about as subjective as the beauty of a human face: we might all have a different favorite, but there are some people we all agree are gorgeous because of nature-based, mathematically-tuned rules of proportion and harmony. I am not talking about pizza toppings. I am talking about common sense aesthetics. I am talking about eyes and mouth and nose. The Encore is missing a face. It could be worse, but it could be better. A lot better. We are suffering from a lack of imagination--and I don't mean Frank Gehry imagination, I mean Beaux Arts imagination. The kind of stuff one can memorize after half an hour in Paris. The renderings of the Encore on Giarratana's site are terrifying.

I wish that this conversation could occur in a pub, where my smiles and gestures would reveal the good-naturedness of my disagreements. I don't want to be antagonistic or arrogant, I just simply feel strongly about my hometown, and this happens to be my chosen field. Please know that I respect all of you and would rather lose this debate than create a feeling of tension or discomfort on this fantastic forum. I just feel compelled to cry out about the untapped potential for this particular building, even though we all know a parking lot is tons worse.

I've got to agree with NewTowner on this one. My problem with seeing this project is that you're putting a 20+ story tower in the middle of a district of existing 2-3 story structures and parking lots. I think its a scale issue. Look at how the Renaissance seems diconnected at certain viewpoints of downtown. The only problem with this is how far removed it is from other liked-size structures.

I know this section of town is going to grow, but I feel we need more mid-rises (6-10 stories) to come in that area. Once a few of those have been built, then maybe 20 won't feel like such a sore thumb.

On another point, does everyone love the Viridian that much that they don't mind a copy of it? At first look at some of the presentations, I wandered if they took model shots from the Viridian and popped them onto this site. All one needs to do is go by the Viridian now and see how it relates to Church Street to see that it won't provide anything to engage the street level. The first 7 or 8 stories is parking garage and won't show any life/ activity.

Cdub, I salute you!

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I wish that this conversation could occur in a pub, where my smiles and gestures would reveal the good-naturedness of my disagreements.

That'd be great. :thumbsup:

I also think the Schermerhorn is a beautiful building, and development around it should be carefully considered. And this brings me to that patch of surface parking in front of it (actually across the small street) and that narrow lot that gives an open view of SC from Broadway. Does anybody know if that area will be landscaped or a parkway will go there. That glimpse from Broad would be great if the space is done right.

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cheerio, Onyte's right, Almond is nothing more than an alley at this point...but one with a green street sign that says Almond, so don't think "street'. You can drive on it.

It, for the most part bisects the block and is perpendicular to the Demonbreun side of the SC.

As for the Virdian, it's in a much tighter space and although the first ten floors are parking, I think the lobby and the grocery store will provide adequate street life. Lighted storefronts and stores with people inside will do that. I long to see that.

And NT, a cozy little corridor is what I heard Tony describing at the zoning meeting. I think there's hope for this to fit.

And just so everyone will know. I just lovin' all this discussion. It's such a pleasure to read your perspectives and in such terms I can't write, but just plain love reading.

I certainly hope Tony's continuing to read these posts. He'd be pleased to know that we here in this electronic pub are truly interested in helping him know better the thoughts of the people. You guys are pretty amazing.

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I can't help thinking that the renderings we've seen so far are simple and hastily cobbled computer pics presented primarily as a concept for the whole project.

It wouldn't surprise me if the whole building looks quite different. After all, isn't he asking for a 23 story variance? The diagrams are 20 or 21, right? And they don't show anything like what's been described for this Almond Street.

So let's just sit tight and see what TG ultimately presents. Even with today's construction costs, $80M isn't cheap for a 23 story building. That's around $25M more than Adelicia.

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I can't help thinking that the renderings we've seen so far are simple and hastily cobbled computer pics presented primarily as a concept for the whole project.

It wouldn't surprise me if the whole building looks quite different. After all, isn't he asking for a 23 story variance? The diagrams are 20 or 21, right? And they don't show anything like what's been described for this Almond Street.

So let's just sit tight and see what TG ultimately presents. Even with today's construction costs, $80M isn't cheap for a 23 story building. That's around $25M more than Adelicia.

You've got a point there, ATLBrain. Let's hope that Encore will be a symphony itself, after all...

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As for the Virdian, it's in a much tighter space and although the first ten floors are parking, I think the lobby and the grocery store will provide adequate street life. Lighted storefronts and stores with people inside will do that. I long to see that.

My issue with the Viridian (and what I think will be the case with a couple of the sides of the Encore) is that the retail is on the first floor and then you have 9 more levels of nothing before you hit the residential starting point. If you take away the 7-8 stories of parking garage and put that underground, we're then talking about a 12 story structure that begins to feel not so out of scale.

If you look at Viridian head on (hopefully I can get up and get a shot this week and post it), the first floor does have some retail, but most of the front facade is given to a drive ramp to access the parking. Feels too much like a suburban front door and not very urban.

Pulling the parking below grade allows the occupied floors to be brought down closer to street level. This helps activate the street far more than 1 retail space on 1 level, as well as helps make the street safer. Eyes on the street are a big deterrent to crime.

Look at some of the other developments and how they are spending a little extra money to put the parking below grade (Terrazo, ICON?, Suntrust). When those are up, you'll see what a difference that makes.

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cdub I like your point about having more than just 1 level of retail at street level w/the parking garage stacked on top of it--it would seem like it might kill the building's street level impact. I want to wait and see the Viridian in its finished form, however. Because even though there will be a parking garage, according to the rendering, it won't look like it--so that will definitely help.

Also, I believe that ICON is going a slightly different route. Correct me if I'm wrong--but I believe that this building will be constructed w/an above ground parking garage that will be will be wrapped by rental apartments, hiding the garage. The higher end condos will be on top of the garage and apts. Great idea.

Were you saying that you think Viridian is out of scale? I can see Encore's height maybe sticking out a little, but Viridian is in the middle of dt. I'm not in love w/the design of Encore, but it is better that a parking lot. As far is it sticking out as the only tall building around, that does not bother me. You have to start somewhere, there always has to be a first--and I think therewill be a variety of building sizes for that neighborhood anyway. It won't look out of place looking at dt from west nashville--say from 440--it will be just another midrise leading up to dt--and in 10 yrs from now, it won't be the only one anyway--hopefully.

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