Brikyaat Development Project

[GRGridGirl]

Are you thinking about counting carloads coming in the entrances or people coming through? Your numbers will probably be way off right now if you're counting cars since so many people are illegally parking on Fuller right now. I also noticed a ton more people than usual walking down the streets into the market.

I've got to say, i like the construction though because i don't feel like Frogger trying to cross Fuller!

I hope to count

# people in the market

# cars entering & exiting on Fountain

I think it would be great to find out the amount of sales the Market generates in one day too.

[GRGyp]

I hope to find that more people are at the Market on Saturday mornings then at Woodland Mall.

I don't know if you'll have the same volume, but I'd wager to guess that the traffic flow (cars per lane per hour) on the two single lane entrances is probably comparible (or greater) to the flow of traffic through Woodland's 5 multilane entrances.

[GRDadof3]

Update today on the Brikyaat plan

"We hope what that will do is give this plan teeth," Helms-Maletic said. "It will say to developers that this isn't just a far-out idea on the part of the neighborhood.

"It will say this plan has a lot of buy-in. It says if you're going to build there, you have to use this plan as your template."

[joeDowntown]

Seems like a cool idea. I like the idea of adding to the market. Historic status? I don't know if I agree with the area being of historic value. Even in the early years these houses were modest, if not downright humble. What does everyone else think?

Joe

[GRDadof3]

Seems like a cool idea. I like the idea of adding to the market. Historic status? I don't know if I agree with the area being of historic value. Even in the early years these houses were modest, if not downright humble. What does everyone else think?

Joe

[CHM]

I don't think historical status has (or should have) anything to do with how much money was spent on the homes and structures in the area. Historical status has certainly been a shot in the arm for the other areas of East Hills.

[joeDowntown]

I'm not saying it has to be based on how much money was spent on the house, but in my opinion the housing stock has no significance other than to say "a bunch of dutch immigrants lived there". Can't you basically say that about many areas of many cities in the US? I think historic districts should be reserved for historical significance and not just as an economic shot in the arm.

I don't think historical status has (or should have) anything to do with how much money was spent on the homes and structures in the area. Historical status has certainly been a shot in the arm for the other areas of East Hills.

[GRDadof3]

I'm not saying it has to be based on how much money was spent on the house, but in my opinion the housing stock has no significance other than to say "a bunch of dutch immigrants lived there". Can't you basically say that about many areas of many cities in the US? I think historic districts should be reserved for historical significance and not just as an economic shot in the arm.

[joeDowntown]

I don't know about that. I just don't think the Brikyaat area has enough historical significance to become a historic district. And I believe that it is a slippery slope to start slapping Historic District designation on any neighborhood that has a strong neighborhood assocation and a dream. Believe me, I am a history buff, an old building devotee and think it is a shame when most old buildings are torn down. But this seems more the about economic engine than the historical significance. Plus, at the surface, it seems that they would first tear down some homes to make the farmer's market bigger (which I'm all for), but then they'd turn around, slap historic status on the area and protect the rest.

Again, to me it seems economically motivated, not historically.

A tough point for me to make since I would love to see the Brikyaat area thrive.

Joe

[Mark Miller]

I think that the significance of this area is not just about the fact that Dutch Immigrants lived there (the cultural and social significance). While these cultural ties are important (and significant) to this area, the fact that there is such a large grouping of what would be considered work force housing along with an excellent example of neighborhood retail and a decent urban street network (within the "historic section") makes it significant.

To date, much of what has been protected was originally built as more upper income type stuff. This area is representative of something else, and preserving it as a resource is important for future generations as well as maintaining a tie to the past. An area such as this, along with the current historic districts would provide for a nice cross section of urban fabric from years past.

The economic part is important as well, but I do not think that it is the primary driver.

[winjer]

Plus, at the surface, it seems that they would first tear down some homes to make the farmer's market bigger (which I'm all for), but then they'd turn around, slap historic status on the area and protect the rest.

[Avocado]

I grew up about a block south of the farmer's market, and lived on Caroline for a while too. I have great memories of these neighborhoods and am pleased to see the community is forming a plan for the future. From what I've seen, these proposals look great and I hope all efforts are made to enact them.

That said, I think that applying Historical District status while simultaneously altering the neighborhood in a drastic fashion is rather curious. Like Joe, I see this designation motivated primarily by economic goals rather than a desire to preserve.

I don't see this as a major issue, nor do I think that it should stand in the way of these proposals. I'm greatly looking forward to walking to an expanded market in summers to come.

[Mark Miller]

The following are images from the final document, which is about 1" thick and contains a plethora of information that was accumulated during the charrettes and feedback sessions.

Here is an image of existing conditions

Transformation plan, which highlights the parts of the existing conditions that could be changed. Red represents new streets and orange represents areas that could be redeveloped.

Master plan

Rendering...

Cottage court on northwest side....

[Avocado]

The following are images from the final document, which is about 1" thick and contains a plethora of information that was accumulated during the charrettes and feedback sessions.

[GRGridGirl]

I've lived in this neighborhood for the past five years & now this is the last weekend I'm staying in my house on Fountain. I'm moving SOW, in the VOK. I loved living so close to major landmarks, public places, work, and my stomping grounds. This is sad for me, though I know I'll love living in my new place, it's only ten blocks away. I guess you feel this way when you really care about the neighborhood you've lived in. Now, I can only be an associate of the Fountain Street beotche$. I hope I get to serve coffee this summer at the Farmer's Market.

I heart Fountain Street in the Brikyaat....

[GRguy]

I posted on this a year or so ago and got blasted for it. I know Ted, Grid Girl and Town Planner all worked on this and it is a pretty document. I just don't see how they can have it both ways. They suggest knocking over the most interesting streets and replacing them with townhomes or apartments and then tell everyone they want historic status? Preservation is not about removing what is inconvenient or that is standing in the way of your building plans. I don't understand why people are giving them a pass on this issue.

I predict that if this comes to pass, we, as a city, will regret this demolition like we do the old city hall.

[concretepoem]

I posted on this a year or so ago and got blasted for it. I know Ted, Grid Girl and Town Planner all worked on this and it is a pretty document. I just don't see how they can have it both ways. They suggest knocking over the most interesting streets and replacing them with townhomes or apartments and then tell everyone they want historic status? Preservation is not about removing what is inconvenient or that is standing in the way of your building plans. I don't understand why people are giving them a pass on this issue.

[joeDowntown]

I love the renderings and like to see all the infill properties that have been added along Fulton in the renderings, but I'm still not keen on the historic status.

I hope this project happens, thrives and goes as planned sans the historic designation. It seems to me that affordable housing stock with walkable streets and amenities would be quite sought after whether it's a historict district or not.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

I love the renderings and like to see all the infill properties that have been added along Fulton in the renderings, but I'm still not keen on the historic status.

I hope this project happens, thrives and goes as planned sans the historic designation. It seems to me that affordable housing stock with walkable streets and amenities would be quite sought after whether it's a historict district or not.

Joe

[joeDowntown]

Personally, I think historic designation should be used only when it is fitting to protect something unique and truly historic. If we allow anyone to slap a historic district marker anywhere in the city, it will dillute the areas that are truly historic and impede the city's ability to reinvent itself.

If the entire city of Grand Rapids were turned into a historic district, where would we go from there?

And could the "environment" of the Brikyaat area be replicated today? Why would anyone?! I think everyone likes to wax nostalgic about an area that has no real significance other than tenacity of the people who live there. Do I mourn the loss of the streets lost to Midtowne Village? No. From a livability standpoint, do I think the housing stock was more appealing and unique than what we have in Brikyaat? Definitely.

Historic districts are a treasure for our city. If we allow anything that has four walls to be deemed historic, you are taking away what makes historic districts unique.

As far as Historic districts being a status symbol of the fortunate few, we have 6 Historic Districts: Heritage Hill, Heartside, Ledyard, Cherry Hill, Wealthy Street Theatre and Fairmount. Honestly, how many of these districts would you consider to be for the "fortunate few"?

Joe

I don't see what the big deal is about giving it historical status. Couldn't an argument be made that the entire city of Grand Rapids should be turned into an historic district? The whole city has an interesting history as to how it grew, all of the streetcar neighborhoods, how different ethnicities settled different areas, and so on. It's not a status symbol for the fortunate few, it's a tool designed to preserve the built environment that pretty much can't be readily replicated today. Right?

I too agree that it seems counterintuitive to both ask for designation and then wipe out a lot of housing stock at the same time.

[GRDadof3]

Personally, I think historic designation should be used only when it is fitting to protect something unique and truly historic. If we allow anyone to slap a historic district marker anywhere in the city, it will dillute the areas that are truly historic and impede the city's ability to reinvent itself.

If the entire city of Grand Rapids were turned into a historic district, where would we go from there?

And could the "environment" of the Brikyaat area be replicated today? Why would anyone?! I think everyone likes to wax nostalgic about an area that has no real significance other than tenacity of the people who live there. Do I mourn the loss of the streets lost to Midtowne Village? No. From a livability standpoint, do I think the housing stock was more appealing and unique than what we have in Brikyaat? Definitely.

Historic districts are a treasure for our city. If we allow anything that has four walls to be deemed historic, you are taking away what makes historic districts unique.

As far as Historic districts being a status symbol of the fortunate few, we have 6 Historic Districts: Heritage Hill, Heartside, Ledyard, Cherry Hill, Wealthy Street Theatre and Fairmount. Honestly, how many of these districts would you consider to be for the "fortunate few"?

Joe

[PRCH]

Is it a tool to preserve our history of the built environment, or is it a tool to make a neighborhood more desirable for investment?

[concretepoem]

I'm not arguing with you Joe, just trying to "understand" what is the real purpose of historical status. Hopefully from someone who has historical status expertise (definitely not me).

Is it a tool to preserve our history of the built environment, or is it a tool to make a neighborhood more desirable for investment?

[GRguy]

I agree, to scrap them would be a waste, but especially to scrap them for Wyoming style apartment complexes (you will note the rendering left off the sea of parking and replaced it with grass and trees).

[joeDowntown]

So you are saying that the reason to give Mack and Stormzand streets historical status is due to the lack of off-street parking? I hate when these discussions lead to the evil automobile. Would I like a mass-transit system? Yes. But your reasoning behind preserving these streets lacks the practicality of "the way the world is" as opposed to "the way the world ought to be".

I'm sure if you ask *ANY* developer on this forum, one of the first questions that comes up is available parking.

To a culture that thinks almost exclusively in terms of 'economy of scale', it forces us stop and think about how people lived, in the case of Mack and Stormzand and some of the other streets in question, people of modest means. The most important reason to preserve streets like Mack and Stormzand as they exist is to remind us that it was once possible to live someplace and get along just fine without two cars in every garage. We'll need to start living that way again soon. Mack and Stormzand are decades ahead of their time. To scrape them would be a waste.