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Brikyaat Development Project


GRDadof3

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So you are saying that the reason to give Mack and Stormzand streets historical status is due to the lack of off-street parking? I hate when these discussions lead to the evil automobile. Would I like a mass-transit system? Yes. But your reasoning behind preserving these streets lacks the practicality of "the way the world is" as opposed to "the way the world ought to be".

I'm sure if you ask *ANY* developer on this forum, one of the first questions that comes up is available parking.

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This vision of the Farmer's Market looks like it would demolish the existing market stalls. Is that right? What's there now, which has been there as is since???? , the existing single, center walkaway and stalls framed by that simple, green-painted metal-pipe structure and covered by temporary screens that let sunlight and air waft through...that all goes in the dumpster, right?

And the established layout of the market stalls, sloping gently down from Fulton to Fountain with such elegant simplicity, the sight of people and produce visible to anyone passing by on Fulton, that's broomed to make way for four totally new structures, all of them completely covered with fixed roofs, and laid out in a new U-shape that conceals the activity within from the street?

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Is it possible to expand the market while preserving its character? The current layout seems inadequate for the number of customers it attracts.

Alternatively, would it be possible to establish auxiliary markets in nearby locations? I'm picturing the open lot on the corner of Fuller and Wealthy, and I'm sure there are others near by. This could bring fresh produce and economic activity to a broader area. Just brainstorming.

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One thing I was wondering about the farmers market. If you look at the footprint of the market itself, is there anyway to rearrange the layout to add more (and permanent) space without expanding the borders? Since the market does draw its fair share of care traffic, is there anywhere close by that could become parking, while the entire footprint of the market was used strictly for vendors and shoppers?

It also like to see a nice entrance to the Farmers Market. Something arched and iron comes to mind to me.

With all of this debate about historic status of the Brikyaat (which is a great name), I still love the farmer's market and the idea of keeping it in the neighborhood. I'd just like to see it co-exist with the neighborhood instead of totally envelop it.

Joe

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All the discussion about historic status is interesting, but keep in mind that the first and foremost goal of this endeavor is the creation of an area specific plan that will become part of the city's master plan. This process has started with the recent presentations to the city planning commission and city commission and will continue.

The importance of this is that this area specific plan can become a guide to future development, meaning that there will be protection for certain elements of the Brikyaat, ie-the entire neighborhood will not be leveled for new development, similar to what happened at Midtown Village. We all understand that in order to get something, we need to give something. We can not expand the farmers market without sacrificing some fabric. We could keep the farmers market exactly the way it is, but that was not the mandate developed during the intensive public input process. The farmers market can not be expanded without making some changes.

The economic goals and the preservation goals can exist together, they are not mutually exclusive. Overall, the sacrifice of some fabric for the greater good is required in a plan like this, and overall a lot of good building stock is planned to be preserved. But if development occurs, it will ultimately need to follow the guidelines of this plan.

The historic status is really not an integral part of this plan or its implementation. It is a key feature, but all of this can occur with or without it. It is a recommendation to be considered. There are a variety of options when it comes to creating historic status, one of which is a conservation zone, which would not be governed by the HPC, but would not allow the tearing down of structures. Obviously making it a historic district would be much more restrictive. In any case, the residents would be the drivers of this, they would have to vote to implement these designation zones, and a majority of them would need to say yes to make it happen.

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One thing I was wondering about the farmers market. If you look at the footprint of the market itself, is there anyway to rearrange the layout to add more (and permanent) space without expanding the borders? Since the market does draw its fair share of care traffic, is there anywhere close by that could become parking, while the entire footprint of the market was used strictly for vendors and shoppers?

It also like to see a nice entrance to the Farmers Market. Something arched and iron comes to mind to me.

With all of this debate about historic status of the Brikyaat (which is a great name), I still love the farmer's market and the idea of keeping it in the neighborhood. I'd just like to see it co-exist with the neighborhood instead of totally envelop it.

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I'll throw my two cents in here. I wasn't at the planning sessions because I don't live in Midtown/Brikyaat area, FWIW.

Anyway, I'm surprised that the neighborhood would want the farmer's market there to become such a big attraction. There are only so many people who can walk there, with the rest driving there, and the traffic on market days is horrendous to say the least. Point to prove that suburbanites will seek out a unique retail environment if done well and offers an alternative. I do like the open air feel of the market now, but it certainly could use some upgrades, maybe even being modeled after Holland's 8th Street Market:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/57/197204076_71690641db_o.jpg

I think a full scale large market, with possibly added meat stands, should be located downtown. The old Sonnevelt facility on Ionia South of Wealthy was proposed to be that type of market, and I think that might get revived some day in the future (hopefully).

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Historic preservation whole-hog once a property is over a certain age is not unheard of. That being said I agree that designation of any sort should be thought out. I love living in the Brikyaat. The homes are modest and yes, the residents are diverse in many ways and yes....are also passionate about where they live as well. Preservation designation as I understand it is not being sought nearer the Farmers Market but to the West nearer Diamond and to the Fulton Street Cemetery. I suppose it's possibleto look at the interest in designation not only protecting the homes from redevelopment, which many of us neighbors are against West of Dimaond. Such designation would also firm-up the safety measures of the Fulton Street Cemetery. I think that the two areas of the Brikyaat are distinctly different, which is why neighbors on that western end ("my" stomping grounds) are looking at preservation and the folks on the eastern edge are considering the ramifications of farmers market expansion. It seems, from what I can tell, after attending meetings and talking to folks on both sides of the Brikyaat, that the hyper-concentration of absentee landlords coupled with abandonded homes (which have been over-valued based on rental income and under-appreciated based on the very QUALITIES that make the streets desireable from my point of view) is the primary driver for market expansion. Take 5 minutes to drive down a smattering of the Brikyaat streets and it is painfully apparent where the forward momentum is and where it isn't.

Sensitive improvement to the homes, especially west of Diamond, has been underway for a few years now. 30-something Uuban homesteaders have been blazing trails of freshly painted, wood-windows-intact, plant a tree for goodness-sake home improvment even before talk of preservation began. Don't underestimate or undervalue those efforts. Is it possible that those "homesteaders" are looking for a stronger set of "teeth" (as the project director says) with which to chew up would-be redevelopers west of diamond? I for one wouldn't mind having a back up plan in the event someone arrived on my doorstep with an option & a smile. In my humble opinion it would be nice to keep those sharks away from my space. It is small, but precious to me and while I will fight tooth and nail, and yes....yell really loud, money talks in this silly city and us little guys need protecting.

So what if designation made my house more valuable....or it didn't. I live there because I love it in a way no Kentwoodian-Suburabnite could ever understand. There is something to be said for NOT having a 90 degree angle anywhere to be found....and in knowing that if protected, these homes could be around for another 100 years.

Trying to be "on subject" for once I will add that market customers already have the option of parking at the Salvation Army, and do it en force.

Try calling Midtown Neighborhood Associaiton at 732-9191 and talk to their staff person. She knows alot about this project and makes time for you if you ask.

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Are you trying to change the subject, GRGridGirl?

Seriously, I was hoping you'd weigh in with your responses to some of the opinions and issues brought up in this thread over the past couple of days, knowing you were part of the process of the Midtown plan. Did you spend your weekend moving SOW?

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This is slightly, maybe quite a bit off topic but how many of you know the history of the Farmer's Markets? Yes plural since there were at least 3. This one, one at Leonard & Front (north between Front & the river) and another on Cottage Grove west of Madison (I think that was where that one was). They were wholesale markets for the farmers and others to sell their goods to the small grocery's that dotted the city and the hucksters that peddled produce door to door. (Where I grew up in the northend there were at least 4 small stores within a half mile of my house.) The markets were used for driver's training courses towards the end on the days the markets were not open.

As super markets were built - A&P's and IGA's and early Meijer's, the markets were used less and less so the city closed all but Fulton Street for the retail trade and consolidated the wholesale market in a new facility on the end of Hall Street west of Godfrey. Besteman Produce is still there and the VanErdens' building is now Michigan Turkey Processors. There produce was sold by the truckloads or partial truckloads. Buyers for the stores would get there at 4 or 5 in the morning and literally open the doors, look at the produce and buy or not buy. The produce would either be unloaded into Besteman's or Van Erdens warehouse, the buyers trucks, or delivered to the Spartan or Meijer warehouse etc. Today, most of the produce is delivered directly to the Besteman, VanErden (on Ionia s of Wealthy), Spartan or Meijer warehouses or directly to the stores themselves.

Hope this wasn't too far off topic - it's a trip down memory lane for me :)

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This is slightly, maybe quite a bit off topic but how many of you know the history of the Farmer's Markets? Yes plural since there were at least 3. This one, one at Leonard & Front (north between Front & the river) and another on Cottage Grove west of Madison (I think that was where that one was). They were wholesale markets for the farmers and others to sell their goods to the small grocery's that dotted the city and the hucksters that peddled produce door to door.

Hope this wasn't too far off topic ...

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This is slightly, maybe quite a bit off topic but how many of you know the history of the Farmer's Markets? Yes plural since there were at least 3. This one, one at Leonard & Front (north between Front & the river) and another on Cottage Grove west of Madison (I think that was where that one was). They were wholesale markets for the farmers and others to sell their goods to the small grocery's that dotted the city and the hucksters that peddled produce door to door...
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East of Fuller and South of Fulton, outside the Midtown Association's sphere of influence by about a block in each direction. Though I could probably hit the Farmer's Market with a well-thrown snowball from my front porch.
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Well, that would explain it. We did concentrate our efforts among people who would most likely be affected by development in the planning area (though Grid Girl--who we will sorely miss--did post our February 13 Community meeting date, time and place on this Page on January 23, 2006), namely property owners, residents and business owners.
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This is slightly, maybe quite a bit off topic but how many of you know the history of the Farmer's Markets? Yes plural since there were at least 3. This one, one at Leonard & Front (north between Front & the river) and another on Cottage Grove west of Madison (I think that was where that one was). They were wholesale markets for the farmers and others to sell their goods to the small grocery's that dotted the city and the hucksters that peddled produce door to door. (Where I grew up in the northend there were at least 4 small stores within a half mile of my house.) The markets were used for driver's training courses towards the end on the days the markets were not open.

As super markets were built - A&P's and IGA's and early Meijer's, the markets were used less and less so the city closed all but Fulton Street for the retail trade and consolidated the wholesale market in a new facility on the end of Hall Street west of Godfrey. Besteman Produce is still there and the VanErdens' building is now Michigan Turkey Processors. There produce was sold by the truckloads or partial truckloads. Buyers for the stores would get there at 4 or 5 in the morning and literally open the doors, look at the produce and buy or not buy. The produce would either be unloaded into Besteman's or Van Erdens warehouse, the buyers trucks, or delivered to the Spartan or Meijer warehouse etc. Today, most of the produce is delivered directly to the Besteman, VanErden (on Ionia s of Wealthy), Spartan or Meijer warehouses or directly to the stores themselves.

Hope this wasn't too far off topic - it's a trip down memory lane for me :)

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