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Lenox Square/Phipps Plaza


Temeteron

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I wonder what the impact of the Buckhead Avenues project will be to Lenox/Phipps.

Positive, I would think. Although they can't have the same stores due to restrictive covenants, it should reinforce uptown Atlanta as the city's premier retail/hotel district. If you add in the other major shopping zones around Buckhead (Bennett Street, West Village, ADAC, Miami Circle, 2300 Peachtree, etc.) you've got a huge amount of retail. They're not exactly exotic but malls like Peachtree Battle and the Peach still do a ton of business and they actually have some pretty cool stores.

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I think it will have a positive effect, but not to the degree that a lot of people are expecting. I think a lot of people are expecting Buckhead Avenues to bring in the luxury designers that only open at streetscape retail locations (Atlanta's Rodeo/Fifth/Michigan/Newbury/Worth), but with the closing of several of Phipps' most exclusive stores over the past five years and with most of the retail already at Phipps/Lenox... I don't know if the timing of this project is too soon. I think there will be many great boutiques (which I actually personally prefer), but I see a lot of people expecting the former. But I think this area could use more local high-end boutiques with great selection.

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I think you are close to the mark with your analysis of The Streets of Buckhead but the rise of the Midtown Mile will surprise some with the names they are attracting as well. Overall, the city's retail scene is going to be better with more and varied options re price points;location and brand offerings.

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I think Midtown Mile has hope ....

Surely the prospects for the Midtown Mile are not dependent on Buckhead. While it's hard to envision uptown Atlanta (Buckhead) being displaced as the city's retail epicentre, that doesn't mean the midtown area can't also support plenty of nice retail. Atlanta is big enough to maintain many thriving retail zones. I would imagine the vast majority of Atlantans rarely venture inside the Perimeter to shop anyway.

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Atlanta's retail market is no longer strictly local/regional because the increased tourism and convention trade so the competitive edge formerly enjoyed by Buckhead no longer exists as the mall is no longer the sole venue of choice for the sophisticated/ tourist customer. In fact, the international customer is more prone to be drawn to the total urban experience,ie food.shopping and clubing on the same same street envoirnment.

The Midtown Mile is going to get a great deal of the renown retail because it is promising a look and feel that is ,IMO, the anthesis of Buckhead image: snooty and snobby.So it is no longer a question of either or in Atlanta re retail but both and; so it is not Buckhead's loss per se but Atlanta's gain as a city with someplace for almost every taste.

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I was going to say much of the same but I couldn't have said it better. Buckhead will always have its draw and its nice to have an upscale enclave in the city but I think its much better for the overall health of the city that Buckhead doesn't have a complete retail/upscale monopoly.

Edited by Martinman
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I tend to view Phipps/Lenox as only one aspect (and for me, not the dominant one) of Buckhead retail. I live within walking distance of the malls but rarely set foot in either one except to go to the movies at Phipps, have dinner at one of the restaurants, or maybe take out of town guests who want to check them out. My guess is that's pretty common among people who live in Buckhead -- I don't know anyone who shops there regularly and can't recall ever seeing any neighbors there.

On the other hand, I do patronize many of the other boutiques, galleries and retail centers around Buckhead. I'd have to think that non-mall shopping significantly exceeds what goes on at Lenox and Phipps.

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Atlanta's retail market is no longer strictly local/regional because the increased tourism and convention trade so the competitive edge formerly enjoyed by Buckhead no longer exists as the mall is no longer the sole venue of choice for the sophisticated/ tourist customer. In fact, the international customer is more prone to be drawn to the total urban experience,ie food.shopping and clubing on the same same street envoirnment.

The Midtown Mile is going to get a great deal of the renown retail because it is promising a look and feel that is ,IMO, the anthesis of Buckhead image: snooty and snobby.So it is no longer a question of either or in Atlanta re retail but both and; so it is not Buckhead's loss per se but Atlanta's gain as a city with someplace for almost every taste.

First off, I don't think retailers really weigh-in the perceived "snootiness and snobbiness" of one location versus the other (as if Buckhead has a higher perception of snootiness than Beverly Hills, Manhasset, Short Hills, Palm Beach, etc.) One challenge for Midtown Mile is, many of the more upscale retailers that ATL will be trying to woo aren't they type to test out a new shopping district. LV, Gucci, Tiffanys, Burberry, these retailers have higher revenues, less risk, and more established brand names, aka more capability to test out new shopping districts (and these already exist at Phipps/Lenox.) It will be difficult (I think) to lure these more high profile retailers to Midtown Mile over an established luxury enclave like Phipps/Lenox. I don't see why retailers like Valentino or YSL would want to open up alone at Midtown over standing next door to Giorgio Armani and Jimmy Choo. Of course, some stores like Prada or Luca Luca prefer the streetscape retail, but they aren't going to open up alone if all the retail is still going to Phipps.

My worry is exactly on this tourism. Yes there is an increase in tourism, but I think Atlanta's retail market is waivering right now and I don't think anyone can accurately describe its current fluctuations. As stated earlier, a number of prime stores closed not too many years ago. One effect that I think will dent Atlanta a little more is precisely this regionalism. More and more luxury retailers are discovering new markets in the Southeast (Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, New Orleans, Charleston), taking more of the regional travelers away from ATL. Is the increase in tourism going to be able to adjust for this? I hope so. It will be interesting to see how Midtown Mile unfolds.

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First off, I don't think retailers really weigh-in the perceived "snootiness and snobbiness" of one location versus the other (as if Buckhead has a higher perception of snootiness than Beverly Hills, Manhasset, Short Hills, Palm Beach, etc.) One challenge for Midtown Mile is, many of the more upscale retailers that ATL will be trying to woo aren't they type to test out a new shopping district. LV, Gucci, Tiffanys, Burberry, these retailers have higher revenues, less risk, and more established brand names, aka more capability to test out new shopping districts (and these already exist at Phipps/Lenox.) It will be difficult (I think) to lure these more high profile retailers to Midtown Mile over an established luxury enclave like Phipps/Lenox. I don't see why retailers like Valentino or YSL would want to open up alone at Midtown over standing next door to Giorgio Armani and Jimmy Choo. Of course, some stores like Prada or Luca Luca prefer the streetscape retail, but they aren't going to open up alone if all the retail is still going to Phipps.

My worry is exactly on this tourism. Yes there is an increase in tourism, but I think Atlanta's retail market is waivering right now and I don't think anyone can accurately describe its current fluctuations. As stated earlier, a number of prime stores closed not too many years ago. One effect that I think will dent Atlanta a little more is precisely this regionalism. More and more luxury retailers are discovering new markets in the Southeast (Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, New Orleans, Charleston), taking more of the regional travelers away from ATL. Is the increase in tourism going to be able to adjust for this? I hope so. It will be interesting to see how Midtown Mile unfolds.

Your statement makes a lot of sense. I think Atlanta is going to have to rely on its own population for retail more and more (which probably shouldn't be a problem.) Here in Orlando in the past up until the new millenium when we went on shopping exursions (unique and upscale) we had two choices to drive to. Number one was Miami and if we wanted a different atmosphere number two would be Atlanta. Currently you don't really hear anybody talking about big shopping trips out of town. So Atlanta has probably lost a lot of that type of retail business. People from Tampa/St. Pete that used to go to Atlanta now have more hometown retail options and what they can't get there it's just a short drive to Orlando. A recent survey in the Orlando Sentinel stated that the biggest out of town retail market for Orlando are day trippers from Jacksonville, but now Jacksonville is starting to develop more mid-upscale retail, so Atlanta probably lost a lot of business from Jacksonville and soon will lose some business to Jacksonville from south Georgia. And then North Carolina is a whole other story with the retail expansion in Charlotte will keep those people home and also draw more people away from Atlanta to Charlotte. So what we have here in the southeast now is several big city metro areas that are developing their own upscale shopping areas for their own populations. Most big retail projects that are being developed also have residential included. I'm not sure if the CBD of Atlanta has many residents or retail/dining, but here in Orlando there is a lot of high rise condo and apartments being built directly in the city core and is attracting a lot of dining and retail in the CBD, Tampa and St. Pete as well. Just curious, is the same thing happening in Atlanta or is everything in the Midtown-Buckhead area? Also, what are the names of the big retail developments (websites) happening in Atlanta now or have opened recently. I haven't been up there in a few years and am curious to what has been happening or what is being planned. Thanks to anyone who has that info!

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I think the impact of shoppers from other cities in the region is being way overstated here. The tourism/convention business in Atlanta is on the increase regardless of what part of the country (or world) they're from. I've also read where several Buckhead retailers are doing record business which explains why they're expanding and building larger stores.

Btw what do you mean by this development

I think Midtown Mile has hope (this development is heavily courting Barneys.)
Edited by Martinman
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1st of all, Im from SAV, which is South GA. I havn't heard that many people saying they want to go anywhere in FLA to shop. Not Jacksonville-because there is not enough there and the rest of the places are to far and expensive to stay. Maybe South FLA but again not too many people can aford to go there just to shop. And no one, at least in GA, wants to go to Orlando just to shop. Those customers are coming from theme parks. I think FLA is being a bit overhyped.

And as far as people choosing to shop in Charlotte instead of Atlanta. Im pretty sure its because Charlotte is closer and I mean a hell of a lot closer.

And acually, Atlanta is getting more and more tourist so it'll probably rely more on out of towners than intowner. more and more people are coming here for all sorts of things.

And like I've said before. Atlanta is just in the center of everything. Miami is way down there and Charlotte is a bit far north and depending on where your coming from, Nashville is just out of the way. Atlanta wins by default.

Edited by SAV
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I think the impact of shoppers from other cities in the region is being way overstated here. The tourism/convention business in Atlanta is on the increase regardless of what part of the country (or world) they're from. I've also read where several Buckhead retailers are doing record business which explains why they're expanding and building larger stores.

Btw what do you mean by this development

Sorry I meant developer. Every retail "street" still has a developer (various parts of Michigan Ave are owned by different people, Newbury, Melrose, Wilshire, Rodeo, etc.) I forget which developer though.

1st of all, Im from SAV, which is South GA. I havn't heard that many people saying they want to go anywhere in FLA to shop. Not Jacksonville-because there is not enough there and the rest of the places are to far and expensive to stay. Maybe South FLA but again not too many people can aford to go there just to shop. And no one, at least in GA, wants to go to Orlando just to shop. Those customers are coming from theme parks. I think FLA is being a bit overhyped.

And as far as people choosing to shop in Charlotte instead of Atlanta. Im pretty sure its because Charlotte is closer and I mean a hell of a lot closer.

And acually, Atlanta is getting more and more tourist so it'll probably rely more on out of towners than intowner. more and more people are coming here for all sorts of things.

And like I've said before. Atlanta is just in the center of everything. Miami is way down there and Charlotte is a bit far north and depending on where your coming from, Nashville is just out of the way. Atlanta wins by default.

I think you misread what both metrowester and I were talking about. I'm not talking about Georgians traveling to ATL, but residents of nearby states traveling to Georgia. Its not people "choosing" Charlotte over ATL, but its Charlotte residents staying in Charlotte because now they have more retail options.

The impact of SE regional shoppers is not overstated at all. Phipps/Lenox owe part of its huge past success due to this regionalism Phipps/Lenox has enjoyed. These two malls have long been the premiere (and more importantly, sole) shopping destination in the intermediate south, since most luxury retail was unavailable elsewhere. Clearly, its too early to really find out what the true impact is and if the increase in overall tourism will balance this, but keep in mind, not all these tourists are coming to atlanta to drop $500 at jimmy choo.

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Sorry I meant developer. Every retail "street" still has a developer (various parts of Michigan Ave are owned by different people, Newbury, Melrose, Wilshire, Rodeo, etc.) I forget which developer though.

I think you misread what both metrowester and I were talking about. I'm not talking about Georgians traveling to ATL, but residents of nearby states traveling to Georgia. Its not people "choosing" Charlotte over ATL, but its Charlotte residents staying in Charlotte because now they have more retail options.

The impact of SE regional shoppers is not overstated at all. Phipps/Lenox owe part of its huge past success due to this regionalism Phipps/Lenox has enjoyed. These two malls have long been the premiere (and more importo tantly, sole) shopping destination in the intermediate south, since most luxury retail was unavailable elsewhere. Clearly, its too early to really find out what the true impact is and if the increase in overall tourism will balance this, but keep in mind, not all these tourists are coming to atlanta to drop $500 at jimmy choo.

That is exactly what I am saying! We USED to travel to Atlanta just to shop, just like most of the southeast if we wanted the premiere shopping at Lenox/Phipps that was not available anywhere else in the southeast (Miami excluded.) Now that our cities have grown and we've gotten much of the same options, we don't go to Atlanta especially to shop anymore. We, meaning Tampa, Orlando, Charlotte, and now Jacksonville, maybe Nashville....And regionally, yes people travel to Orlando just to shop as opposed to driving all the way to Atlanta, same for Charlotte, Tampa, etc. I don't know what you mean by Florida being overstated, there's almost 20,000,000 people here and quite a considerable amount of wealth. Check out Palm Beach County, Sarasota, and Naples and see the retail they have for cities of their size. Many Southerners in Alabama and Georgia, Louisiana, and Mississippi mainly only know Florida by their spring break/vacation experiences in the Panhandle, in Pensacola, Ft. Walton Beach, Destin, and Panama City. If you are calling that area "Florida" then, while it has beautiful beaches ,it is so far away economically, politically, culturally, and by sheer distance from the real Florida.

And their is no "winning" by default, it is what it is. I love Atlanta and most people I know really like it a lot. That has nothing to do with the direction that retail is heading in Atlanta and Lenox/Phipps and the rapidly changing retail scene in the Southeast and how the malls are dealing with it. Atlanta has been growing so fast and gotten so huge that it has its own economy like a small country and it's time for it's residents to enjoy their new urban lifestyle. You don't have to worry about your perception by the rest of us anymore, we know you've got it all, so enjoy it. And those of us in the new big cities in the southeast will do the same and watch our cities grow and change with the same excitement that people in Atlanta have done for the past 30 years.

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Well obviously it hasn't hurt that people travel to Buckhead to shop from other cities in the region. On the other hand to say that it "depends" those people that might do so once or twice a year is a gross overstatement.

Regarding Atlanta visitors, generally speaking, guests of a St. Regis, Mansion, Mandarin, W etc. are likely to be the type that would enjoy this kind of retail.

It seems pretty clear to me that the market is a) thriving and b) expanding which suggests that the impact those cities is neglible.

Edited by Martinman
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When I say Atlanta wins by default I mean that most people would rather take a 2 hour drive to the A, shop and return within the same day, instead of basically planning an expensive trip to FLA to shop. Except, obviously , the 20,000,000 people in FLA.

And I still don't know who travels to Orlando, besides Floridians, JUST TO SHOP. I think Orlando's retail scene has had a lot of help from Tourist coming to vist the theme parks and resorts. Which I think is very cool also.

Im saying FLA is being overated because Atlanta is basically being underrated. Even though some of these other places may have a couple of luxery stores, Atlanta still has a lot that most places in the south don't have. And yes toursim as well as the Market is thriving.

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Im saying FLA is being overated because Atlanta is basically being underrated. Even though some of these other places may have a couple of luxery stores, Atlanta still has a lot that most places in the south don't have. And yes toursim as well as the Market is thriving.

I don't know about Atlanta being underrated, in these forums Atlanta retail, Lenox-Phipps, is probably overrated. Don't get me wrong, Buckhead is nice, but it's not a top 40 international retail destination, not top 15 US. The stores found in Atlanta can be found in any big city or small rich city, it doesn't have anything that's unique. It has an appropriate, maybe average, retail scene for its wealth and size.

Edited by moonshield
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I don't know about Atlanta being underrated, in these forums Atlanta retail, Lenox-Phipps, is probably overrated. Don't get me wrong, Buckhead is nice, but it's not a top 40 international retail destination, not top 15 US. The stores found in Atlanta can be found in any big city or small rich city, it doesn't have anything that's unique. It has an appropriate, maybe average, retail scene for its wealth and size.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Atlanta is a top fashion destination for the South. I know many people that come from North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Alabama to Lenox/Phipps because they offer many stores that they can't get in their own state.

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Well obviously it hasn't hurt that people travel to Buckhead to shop from other cities in the region. On the other hand to say that it "depends" those people that might do so once or twice a year is a gross overstatement.

Regarding Atlanta visitors, generally speaking, guests of a St. Regis, Mansion, Mandarin, W etc. are likely to be the type that would enjoy this kind of retail.

It seems pretty clear to me that the market is a) thriving and b) expanding which suggests that the impact those cities is neglible.

What market are you talking about? The retail market? How do you make the judgment that this market is thriving.

Also keep in mind that Atlanta has a number of the country's largest businesses (and most influential businesses.) Business travel is one thing that you should not forget.

Whoever said the retail depends on the region? All that was said a large part of Phipps/Lenox success is due to this regionalism.

When I say Atlanta wins by default I mean that most people would rather take a 2 hour drive to the A, shop and return within the same day, instead of basically planning an expensive trip to FLA to shop. Except, obviously , the 20,000,000 people in FLA.

And I still don't know who travels to Orlando, besides Floridians, JUST TO SHOP. I think Orlando's retail scene has had a lot of help from Tourist coming to vist the theme parks and resorts. Which I think is very cool also.

Im saying FLA is being overated because Atlanta is basically being underrated. Even though some of these other places may have a couple of luxery stores, Atlanta still has a lot that most places in the south don't have. And yes toursim as well as the Market is thriving.

I don't think you read the posts before you. Once again, this doesn't pertain to what has been said. All that was stated was those from Charlotte will be making less trips to Atlanta due to a new rise in retail in their own city. One thing about Orlando is it has a much bigger international and national tourist presence than Atlanta. There may not be people from Georgia traveling there to shop, but enough from around the world to justify the need for luxury retail at Millenia.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Atlanta is a top fashion destination for the South. I know many people that come from North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Alabama to Lenox/Phipps because they offer many stores that they can't get in their own state.

I don't think that says much. With the exception of Florida and Texas (which most people probably don't really categorize as the south anyways), the South has had an overwhelming underrepresentation in terms of luxury retail. Only recently are a number of cities seeing luxury retailers open shop.

I hope Atlanta will see a new revival in terms of luxury retailers. Martinman - I hope you are right in your guess. It would be disappointing to see Phipps lose more of its shops.

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