Hampton Roads/ Richmond Metropolitan area?

[babiko]

It is inevitable that the two metros will begin to merge. Development has been creeping to the northern end of James City County, and south from New Kent. Someone living in either of these two counties can easily commute to the other metro area (from New Kent to NN and JCC to Richmond).

Has anyone noticed that on Wikipedia and other information websites now list that Richmond and even Hampton Roads have become part of the BosNyWash Megalopolis. Any feelings?

[erdogs]

There is so much waist land between Williamsburg and Richmond it just does not make a whole lot of sense. In case anyone has doughts Williamsburg is a part of Hampton Roads not Richmond. Richmond can have Fredricksburg.

[mclawsdrive]

There is so much waist land between Williamsburg and Richmond it just does not make a whole lot of sense. In case anyone has doughts Williamsburg is a part of Hampton Roads not Richmond. Richmond can have Fredricksburg.

I think its too late for richmond to claim Fredericksburg. Northern Va swallowed F-burg up over the last 20 years and the commuting patterns are very well established. Fredericksburg is now a DC suburb. I agree that Williamsburg is much more a part of HR than of Richmond, although its about equi-distant.

I think we'll see Richmond and Charlottesville grow together. Richmond is growing west along 64 faster than any other direction and C-ville is growing east along 64 as well. Speaking of c-ville, has anyone noticed all the subdivisions WEST of Waynesboro that popped up all along the interstate. These neighborhoods (25-30 minutes west of C-ville, over afton mt.) can be attributed to Charlottesville commuters. Charlotteville real estate has become prohibitively expensive.

[wrldcoupe4]

In case anyone has doughts Williamsburg is a part of Hampton Roads not Richmond. Richmond can have Fredricksburg.

Why does it even matter?

[Culpeper Hokie]

It is inevitable that the two metros will begin to merge. Development has been creeping to the northern end of James City County, and south from New Kent. Someone living in either of these two counties can easily commute to the other metro area (from New Kent to NN and JCC to Richmond).

Has anyone noticed that on Wikipedia and other information websites now list that Richmond and even Hampton Roads have become part of the BosNyWash Megalopolis. Any feelings?

I think the tsunami from NOVA/DC will sweep over the Richmond metro long before Richmond and Tidewater meld. Right now, there is a ton of new commercial and residential development as far south as the Massaponax exit on I-95, and even a bloom of residential development farther south to Ladysmith in Caroline County. From the looks of those houses, they aren't being built by farmers from Bowling Green, but more likely by NOVAn's moving farther down the corridor in order to be able to afford decent housing.

Being that Richmond's fringe is already out past Ashland in Hanover County, the two waves are about to smash together VERY soon. To make a long story short, yes, I think Richmond is about to become part of the "BosWash" Megolopolis, which will probably soon become the "BosNor" or "BosOBX" super-megolopolis.

[JWCJ]

Accually its more possible for Richmond in Norfolk to become on metro are then DC because we are just a little bet to far south and development in Richmond is staring to look east. Plus all there is between Ashland and Fredricksburg is like wasteland evenmore then between Sandston and Williamsburg. I expect for Richmond and Hampton Roads to become one Metro within the next 5 to 10 years. Plus DC metro is seeming like its moving more West and east now not south.

[JWCJ]

Plus everything from Virginia Beach north to Augusta, Maine is counted now as part of the Northeast Megalopolis. Like I said it is like 67% more likely that RIC/TC and HR will become one first because Richmonders travel throw the hampton roads like its a normal thing. Its not the same when it come to DC.

HR about 30 miles, DC/BALT about 75 to 80 miles.

[Jerseyman4]

Right now, there is a ton of new commercial and residential development as far south as the Massaponax exit on I-95, and even a bloom of residential development farther south to Ladysmith in Caroline County. From the looks of those houses, they aren't being built by farmers from Bowling Green, but more likely by NOVAn's moving farther down the corridor in order to be able to afford decent housing.

Last i traveled US 1 between Fredericksburg and Ashland, its still reletively rural and makes a good alternative over I-95 if you dont feel like driving the posted speed limit (65).

[lammius]

There's less distance between developed portions of HR & RIC than between RIC & DC, but the growth of NOVA south is FAST.

BUT, even if all the land between all three metros were developed, you're not likely to see a merging of MSAs into a CMSA. At least not for decades beyond. The cores of the various regions have so little exchange between them that they are not one metropolitan unit. HR & RIC are far behind other metros for which there is tons of buzz about merging. Maybe within a few decades NYC & Philly, LA & SD, Chicago & Milwaukee, and Boston & Providence will merge. I think all of those would happen long before any merger of the Virginia metros.

I think this topic is more of a fun "what if" conversation than a likely reality anytime soon.

[JWCJ]

New York in Philly are too far apart to merge together it would be DC/Baltimore/ Philly. LA and SD are possible but that would take 3 to 5 more decades becaste there far apart. Not even the OC is in the LA metro and they're right beside LA county.

DC is moveing not more south anymore more like south west and some southeastern movement. Its hard to develope in a area that far away from the center stage(s) (DC & BALT). But DC's metro may come down to northern Hanover, Hanover is too close to Richmond to be part of DC's metro area. Richmonds way to far away to be apart oif it either. The only way Richmond and The Hampton Roads would become one metro is if both were building towards eachother, which is starting to happen now. So in about 1 to 2 decades I beleive there will be a RIC,TC/HR CMSA, and a DC/Philly/Baltimore Megalopolis.

Richmond/Tri-Cities and Hampton Roads just need to start buiding more in Providence Forge, which is accually between both of them by about 15 to 10 miles.

[lammius]

I think your idea of distances is a bit off.

Distances between city centers:

Los Angeles to San Diego 121 mi

Virginia Beach (Census Bureau's idea of "central HR") to Ric 108 mi

Washington to Richmond 106 mi

New York to Philadelphia 101 mi

Baltimore to Philadelphia 99 mi

Norfolk to Richmond 94 mi

Chicago to Milwaukee 93 mi

Boston to Providence 50 mi

Not to draw this argument out longer than it needs to be, but I just don't believe HR-Richmond is closer to becoming a large CMSA than the other areas mentioned.

Philly

Philadelphia is pretty much equidistant from Baltimore and New York. Between Balt & Philly there's the largely rural areas on the northern Chesapeake Bay. Between NYC and Philly there are very few pockets of rural land. NYC & Philly's outer metro areas are overlapping in a strange way. in 1990 Mercer County NJ (formerly part of Philly's CMSA) switched and became part of New York's CMSA. New York is starting to gobble away at Philly from the northeast. I think these two cities will continue to develop a relationship but a merger is decades off.

LA-SD

The farthest apart among the areas listed, but there's non-stop highly developed land between LA-Camp Pendleton and from Camp Pendleton to San Diego. The base is the only thing between these areas. Orange County is part of the Los Angeles CMSA.

Chicago-Milwaukee

There's nothing between these cities except suburban mess. Commuter rail is operating between Mil & Chi and people who feel they're being priced out of Chi yet still want urban living are flocking to Kenosha and Milwaukee (same is happening between NYC & Phila, btw).

Boston-Providence

There's not much buzz about a merger between these two areas, but they're so close and there's no easy way to tell where affiliations toward one end and the other begin. The census boundary is the state line but I find that kind of arbitrary (although Fall River, MA is part of Providence's MSA). There's quite an exchange between these cities.

Washington-Richmond

Not expected to merge anytime soon, but growth is pushing outward from both. Richmond isn't growing north nearly as fast as Nova is pushing south. Granted, Nova is growing west faster than it's growing south, but the southward movement is happening. Fredericksburg was annexed by Nova and I'm surprised to see that formerly non-metro Caroline County was added to the Richmond column, not the DC/Balt column. Still, any merger would be far off into the future.

Norfolk-Va Beach-NN & Richmond

There is growth occurring between them, but it is fairly slow and the MSAs themselves are relatively slow-growing. There also isn't much of a relationship between the two metros. I once knew a woman who commuted from Portsmouth to Richmond 3 days a week. But that practice is highly uncommon. I'd wager you're more likely to find people who will take a train from Milwaukee to Chi or Philly to NYC. The amount of undeveloped land coupled with the level of relationship between these two metros make a merger highly unlikely anytime soon. And that's not a bad thing! Take it from someone who lives in the country's most densely populated state--a bit of open space between metro areas would be nice!

[JWCJ]

The Richmond Metro is accually grow alot faster then the HRs one its just the hampton roads are starting to cool down.

Youn are right. But Richmond and HR do have a heck of a more change of become one metro then RIC and DC.

In Richmond we just got signs of growth east yesterday from a mall being builded in the east end, and the expasion of the canal walk from dowtown richmond to williamsburg or jamestown. New Kent is starting to grow rappedly, and Mayor Wilder is trying to build up the east end. James City is growing west. So my time line I think will stick.

3 to 6 years till a Hampton Roads/Richmond-Tri Cities CMSA!

1 to 2 decades I meant.

[wrldcoupe4]

It's not a mall being built in the East End, it's a big shopping center.

here's a diagram of the siteplan:

White Oak Village

And the Canal Walk will end at Great Shiplock Park. Maybe you mean the capital trail thing, which will go from Richmond to Williamsburg, using the canal walk as part of the route?

[JWCJ]

Well thank you for fixing my words.

But I think that should pull development east.

[Cadeho]

The east had development, but recently it shifted to the west which is now over-developed.

[vdogg]

This should help liven the debate a bit. Whether Richmond and HR ever grow together Richmond and D.C. may be there already.

From the Washington post Extreme Sprawl in Va.

^^^This is a very interesting article.

[rusthebuss]

It is a very interesting article.

[babiko]

That is interesting, yet isnt this happenning to JCC and New Kent county? Look at the Home Section of the daily press every saturday, and you will see that most of the new subdivisions in JCC are in its western end, near New Kent. Both of these counties are among Virginias fastest growing, and at least for me here in NN, Richmond feels very close, one hour flat from intersate exit 258 to downtown Richmond.

[Jerseyman4]

At this time, Caroline and King George are still rural counties. While some development has been popping up, it still has a way to go before it ever reaches the heights of other Nova sprawl counties.

[johnk812]

It's hard to believe people commute from Caroline County to Washington. However I commute about 30 minutes one-way to Newport News from Portsmouth each day. It's hard to stomach after living in Philly where I walked to work. But, I like my home in Portsmouth. The school district is good for my son. My job in Newport News is working out. I guess a lot of us just get stuck; stuck in the car. I'd like to see more bike lanes and public transit options. Crossing Hampton Roads (the water that is) is not so easy by bus, which is all we have here. They should build cars that you have to peddle a little to keep going so at least I can get some exercise.

[gosscj]

Just curious: how old is your son and what schools in Portsmouth has he attended? I graduated from Portsmouth Public Schools in 2002 and, while I really enjoyed my time there and foud it pretty easy to succeed, I have to say the quality of the education I received (with the exception of a few remarkable teachers, only one or two of whom still teach in Portsmouth) was mediocre at best. I'm not writing this to disparage the city of Portsmouth, which I love dearly, but because I feel Portsmouth's citizens and politicians should not be given a reprieve for allowing their schools to continue their descent into disrepair and disorder. On a different tangent, I'm moving to Philadelphia in just under two months to attend graduate school at Temple University. I'll be living in the University City area near Drexel and UPenn. Can you give me your opinion of that area and some things I should see or do whn I get there?

[lammius]

Just curious: how old is your son and what schools in Portsmouth has he attended? I graduated from Portsmouth Public Schools in 2002 and, while I really enjoyed my time there and foud it pretty easy to succeed, I have to say the quality of the education I received (with the exception of a few remarkable teachers, only one or two of whom still teach in Portsmouth) was mediocre at best. I'm not writing this to disparage the city of Portsmouth, which I love dearly, but because I feel Portsmouth's citizens and politicians should not be given a reprieve for allowing their schools to continue their descent into disrepair and disorder. On a different tangent, I'm moving to Philadelphia in just under two months to attend graduate school at Temple University. I'll be living in the University City area near Drexel and UPenn. Can you give me your opinion of that area and some things I should see or do whn I get there?

I graduated from Churchland in 2000. That school was on a fast slide down the tubes. I agree with you--there are some great teachers who really push students to develop their intellect and to succeed, but I feel most students there were left behind. It was sad to see people in my 12th grade classes who had not yet passed the state's 6th grade Literacy Passport Test (LPT). That was in the days before SOLs. Computers and good books were lacking, air conditioning was lacking in many schools, teacher turnover was out of control, and administrators (not just at CHS) always seemed to play to childish alliances, often based simply on race. I felt fortunate to have survived and continue my education, and felt bad for people whose only opinions of what education means came from their experiences in Portsmouth Public Schools. The last time I saw my high school diploma I think I was using it as a cocktail napkin.

University City is becoming quite a great area. Of course there's a very large student population there and lots of new shops and restaurants are opening up all the time. The housing stock is old and quite charming. There are also lots of great transit options to get you into Center City, and 30th Street Station is nearby too. Philly is a great city and it's still quite affordable compared to other northeastern cities.

P.S. Sorry to continue the off-topic convo.

[vdogg]

[vaceltic]

I think the point that should be made about MSA's and how they grow and combine is a matter of economics. Economic ties between Richmond and DC are far more intertwined than those between Richmond and the Norfolk region. When someone lives in Hampton, Williamsburg, or most of the Peninsula, they are pulled to shop, dine, and spend most money in the Norfolk metropolitan area. When you look at some of the major businesses that comprise the economy of this area, they are in areas of defense, technology, and research for the military presence of the Hampton Roads area.

Richmond's economy is based on Finance, Insurance, and Manufacturing because it is the state capitol and a central transportation hub. Several aspects of these industries bind them to the Washington DC metro. Many employees in my office take the train down from DC to do work in the office here. I am not aware of many Richmonders who need to make trips to the Norfolk MSA for business.

I think these two metros will always be separate entities, with Williamsburg being the border between them. However, as sprawl continues the metros will touch with a continuous line of development, but like Philly MSA, Baltimore MSA, New York, and Boston, they are still considered their own metro areas because their economies provide different functions. Hopefully transportation improvements between Norfolk and Richmond can give both MSA's a more integrated economy and benefit both areas. If high speed rail came in, defense contractors could more easily set up shop in Richmond and Insurance companies in Norfolk. Diversifying the economy for both areas would be the greatest benefit.

[wrldcoupe4]

Richmond's economy is pretty diverse (more diverse than described) as it is, and thus is able to weather downturns in the economy very well. I think people in Williamsburg are split between Richmond and Norfolk.

Overall though, I'd agree with your assessment and agree that transportation improvements between Richmond and DC and HR would help Richmond and HR significantly. Affordable Maglev between the district, richmond and norfolk would be great!