Triangle architecture & design

[Unifour]

Most of the posters seem really enthusiastic about them, that's entirely what I meant.

[Neo]

Most of the posters seem really enthusiastic about them, that's entirely what I meant.

This is because history has proven that when you go vertical then your city is becoming of more power. Going vertical usually adds to and stems from dense areas. We are however urban centric, not skyscraper centric as skyscrapers alone do not make up urbanity. Just look at Atlanta.

Joking about Atlanta, hehe!

[Unifour]

I hope what I said isn't taken out of context... I did not say that being skyscraper centric was bad, and there is nothing wrong with wanting them or liking them. I love skycrapers, in the right environment.

Build your skyscrapers wisely, Raleigh, else they destroy your urban lifestyle. As Neo states, Atlanta is a case in point of how NOT, I repeat NOT, to develop. Although, as Atlanta also shows, it is possible to recover from the past and create a healthy urban environment from a psuedo-urban culture.

[dmccall]

Just a few notes on Atlanta since the time when they looked like Raleigh:

1967: Hyatt Regency - John Portman designs the first tall atrium lobby with glass elevators. Revolving restaurant on the top is a symbol for the city and has everyone excited about coming downtown to see it. The base totally ignores two of the four streets and the main build of the building is a bit simple.

1973: Peachtree Plaza Hotel - Portman adds the worlds tallest hotel to the skyline. Exterior glass elevator, revolving restaurant atop, and all-glass cylinder shape becomes Atlanta's trademark for at least a decade.

1987: IBM Building (One Peachtree Center) - Philip Johnson adds my favorite point tower on the planet to midtown. This is the first of a large wave of buildings in midtown.

1992: Bank of America Plaza - Pelli point tower that is so proportionally dramatic, nobody notices the ugly windows.

1992: SunTrust Plaza - The last great Portman building, if you ask me. However, with its stand-offish base plaza and cold lobby, it is definitely the worst of this list.

During this 25-year period Atlanta got several other tall buildings that add to the skyline, but these 5 are and were special. They helped to give Atlanta an inspiring, proud skyline. I'm talking SKYLINE; not the most important part to a downtown, but important nevertheless. The bases of these buildings is the subject of another discussion. We can build the most wonderfully functional, engaging street level buildings, but if they continue to be bland at the top, the pride in downtown and national recognition won't develop. We need BOTH. The new Marriott, One and Two Hannover, Center Plaza, Radisson (Sheraton), Public Safety Center, Courthouse: None of these buildings add charm and excitement to the skyline. WE need to take advantage of this opportunity.

The addition of the Hyatt in ATL was the equivalent of our 1991 First Union and Two Hannover buildings. Over the following 20 years, we will have added the very nice Progess Energy building (which is hidden from most skyline shots), a Marriott that is being debated, the RBC Tower and the Reynolds building. We have a lot of work to do if those buildings are going to match up with the impact, importance, and charm of Atlanta's Hyatt, Peachtree Plaza, and One Peachtree Center buildings. Not that we are "competing with Atlanta", but the point is that if they did THAT in those 20 years, we certainly ought to be able to do that with good bases. Atlanta's sluggish downtown life over the last 30 years probably has to do more with public safety than building design.

This diatribe purposely ignores the effects of sprawl, transit, and the economy during those periods. They are essentially the same for the two cities during those same periods.

[romec]

When Raleigh grows to the point that you can't build a 30 story box and grab attention on the skyline, then we'll see architects start to gamble with exciting designs. We're getting there. Whenever we look at pictures of beautiful skylines, noone ever focuses on the boxes (Unless they are WTC big). Without the boxes, however, the special buildings don't look as special.

It really is all about momentum. It is difficult to take a risk and deviate from whats there. Once its been done though, its easier for others to innovate.

I think that the Soleil Center, even though its not downtown, has the potential to get everyone thinking outside of the box (pun intended)

[bdp]

whoa... a lot has been said since I put that article up at 630 or so this morning... I wasn't sure what to make of it, probably because I had not had my coffee yet. First of all, I want to echo raleighsfinest and say I am in awe of dmccall's website, his renderings and the fact that he puts so much time and effort into building what raleigh is so in need of (in my opinion) -- community. By this I mean getting people to be involved, to think about what is happening around town and to speak up about it. I felt like I was alone in a city of Nimby's and John Locke/Wake County Tax Payers Association people (no offense if you are one, everyone has their opinions) Since I found this site and raleighing.com a few weeks ago, it has been like a breath of fresh air for me personally, so... thanks for that! Anyway, regarding the NandO article... I think that Raleigh is on the right track... public discourse is actually pretty high right now, by Raleigh standards, for one thing. If we don't get that architectually inspiring building now, it will come soon. So we get a collection of big boxes with street level retail etc... that is a pretty damn good start considering where Raleigh was ten years ago. Sooner, rather than later someone will want to stand out with their design and Raleigh will have its signature building. Isn't there a quote or something about great cities not being built over night? Rome wasn't built in a day? I think that's it... I guess what I am trying to say is that with all that is going on right now, in Jan. 2006, (Fayetteville Street Renaissance, the convention center/hotel, RBC, Green Square, Quorum, Palladium, Blount Street, Reynolds-maybe? etc) this is just the beginning! Of course, it would rock for Raleigh have all that we expect a big, thriving metropolis to, while I am still in my twenties... but living here through all the changes is fun! I am just one citizen that plans on doing my part to be involved as much as I can with the process (like we all should!). If you don't like what is being done, write your city council rep, and if you do like something, write them about that too. Raleigh will get its cool buildings, probably sooner than we all think. I mean, who saw the Soleil Center coming? Ok, that's my 2 cents...

PS Does anyone else think the round Clarion is kinda cool? I think they could do a lot more with it, whitwash it, wrap the top in neon or something, and give a bit of Miami to Raleigh... hahah... anyway...

[turbocraig]

^^Just a clarification. Cesar Pelli designed Charlotte's BofA tower. Roche, Dinkaloo & Assoc. designed the Altanta (then C&S Sovran) tower. But, the point of your post is well taken.

[MR-2]

Boxes aren't the problem. When you have enough of them, they start to look good. The windows are the problem. If they aren't any good, the building will look shabby at night. These gray elephants are all over Raleigh's skyline, and they're the real problems we have to live with.

The Judicial building, the Prison, the AT&T building, all have the misfortune of being on the same side of the city, and creating a wall of gray at all times of the day. It's a damn shame. RBC might be building a huge-ass box, but at least it'll be mostly glass. Whatever Reynolds builds, hopefully it'll have good windows too.

Now, the Judicial building is going to be replaced in a few years, and they could attract a developer to the site for the old one, and possibly try to demolish it/replace it with something much more suitable for its spot.

[dmccall]

^^Just a clarification. Cesar Pelli designed Charlotte's BofA tower. Roche, Dinkaloo & Assoc. designed the Altanta (then C&S Sovran) tower. But, the point of your post is well taken.

Thanks for that. I don't know where I picked up the Pelli thing for Atlanta, but you are right. There is actually a Wikipedia entry for it.

Does anyone remember the old C&S HQ that was in that same block? It was round and brown. The size and proportions were almost exactly like the Clarion on H-boro St., but the facade was brown panels and glass. There is an MCV building in Richmond with this facade, too. It was very "period", but a decent little building. I went by there in '93 and saw this 200' tall concrete shaft sticking in the air. It was the core of the old C&S building during the demolition - which they did piece by piece. Can't find a photo of it on the web.

[dmccall]

I can't remember where someone requested a composite rendering, but here goes:

Current:

Proposed (so far!):

[dmccall]

If I could design the RBC building, I would make it a half pyramid. Let me explain...

One side of the building, facing Fayetteville St. would be straight upward with no setback about 40 stories. The sides facing Martin St. and the Hudson would also rise with no setbacks. But the side facing Wilmington would slant backwards from street level all the way to the top above Fayetteville St.

The whole thing should be glass. It would be iconic. The top "floor" where the pyramid wouldn't permit any office or residential space, could be a crown that was lit up at night.

You could adjust the design for the parking structure, if necessary, so that the slanting side didn't begin to slant for 7 stories (or however many are necessary for parking).

I think this would look great in downtown Raleigh. I wish I could photoshop it.

Do you mean something like this?

Nutty.

[Damien]

The cc hotel is certainly a big bore. There is a bright side though. The Lafayette will block part of the view of it.

[krazeeboi]

Proposed (so far!):

It's interesting that the convention center will actually form a prominent part of the skyline. I don't know of any other cities in which that is the case off the top of my head.

[Raleighsfinest]

I remember people on here criticizing the Westin hotel tower in Charlottle. I actually wish something like that could get built in Raleigh to compliment our skyline. It would be a nice contrast against all of the tan colors. It's very unique.

[Transplant]

Aside from Large Towers, Raleigh needs some smaller 8-12 story buildings to balance out the enviroment. Hopefully, this is what the areas like Warehouse Dist. will get. I don't think the current traffic pattern in the warehouse area could handle much more. (yes, the TTA would relieve some, but not all the traffic caused by huge buildings). Plus, you need some transition to the residential areas west of DT.

[plus2]

Do you mean something like this?

Nutty.

Well, sorta. I imagined it blue glass and shorter. It looks better in my head.

[dmccall]

The cc hotel is certainly a big bore. There is a bright side though. The Lafayette will block part of the view of it.

I think that because the Lafayette will be on the block south of the Marriott, it will only block the One Hannover building (brick). I honestly can't imagine anything ever blocking this convention hotel in the future. Downtown is poised to grow east/west with height.

It's going to be a building we will look at for decades and decades to come.

Here's an update to the metarendering including Site 1 and Site 4 buildings. I have a lot of free time on my hands this week

[Transplant]

Does anyone have information on the courthouse? When I looked at the City's homepage, it seemed that they were only renovating the current building.

[JunktionFET]

I rather like the fact that Raleigh's skyline isn't littered with spires. Raleigh's proposed towers fit well with the trend that has been set with its current selection of towers. The boxy modern style works well for Raleigh and it seems like it has become an identifier for the city.

It seems like so many southern cities have gone crazy with spires--I suppose because all the buildings are the same age and were built during the same styling era. Raleigh's current style is a nice change, albeit a bit boring or predictable. That's nice though. Nowadays it seems that wacky, flashy, and swoopy designs are the norm anyway, and therefore not all that spectacular.

[pack-man]

Skylines don't make people friendly places. I recommend reading up on the city of Brazilia

The BofA tower is a failure at street level which is my biggest complaint about it and a primary problem also mentioned in the article above. They blew away several blocks of street level retail and instead replaced it with a monumental building that has nothing to to show for at its base but a concrete plaza and a very very fancy lobby that only has elevators in it. It is a very bad design from a people perspective. All too often the press is quick to praise a building such as this because it had a fancy architect and a lot of floors, but that really doesn't mean it is a good design.

I agree the the Hearst is much better.

All too often, we get very fancy looking buildings, such as the BofA tower, that do little to inspire much street life. Don't confuse size and iconic buildings with people friendly places which was the point of that article.

I was simply stating the BofA tower is architecturally appealing. It is a very nice building. Its not like the guy driving down the interstate looks at the building and says "gee, i wonder if they have a pedestrian friendly lobby area on that building" No, they see the building for what it is and it sticks out visually. I agree, perhaps BofA should've incorporated a better street level, but perhaps the bank is just turning their nose up to their customers(wouldn't be surprised)

I think Raleigh can build both, visually iconic and serve the people on the ground level. I think that all the tall buildings in Raleigh do that on Fayetteville St. They all have a purpose on the ground level. I hope this trend continues.

[Rufus]

Can someone add a pic of the "signature view of downtown" with not only the RBC HQ, Conv. Center, Hotel, and Lafayette, but also the new courthouse and N&O expansion buildings (even though no true design has been released), and the southend projects that are going on? That would really help give a perspective of how Raleigh is growing yet still retaining some of the boxy designs.

[pack-man]

I see boxes!

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Can someone add a pic of the "signature view of downtown" with not only the RBC HQ, Conv. Center, Hotel, and Lafayette, but also the new courthouse and N&O expansion buildings (even though no true design has been released), and the southend projects that are going on? That would really help give a perspective of how Raleigh is growing yet still retaining some of the boxy designs.

Yeah! How about a picture of a broader downtown, (i.e. the Reynolds project), as well as the RBC HQ, Conv. Center, Hotel, and Lafayette, but also the new courthouse and N&O expansion buildings? Is there some sort of software one could purchase to create/re-create a downtown? Thanks!

[RaleighRick]

Does anyone have information on the courthouse? When I looked at the City's homepage, it seemed that they were only renovating the current building.

I have seen the courthouse and county building models on Emporis.com. It may be old info.

Linkage: Emporis.com

[dmccall]

Thanks for the link. BOY is that bland!

So the McDowell St. experience along that block will just be parking lot facades? Not so neat. How about making the first floor shops and the second and third floors look like apartments with fake windows? What do y'all think?