New Urban Village Near Scaleybark Light Rail Station

[uptownliving]

I think the pads are narrower than that, for the Los Angeles Blue line in parts of Long Beach or for the San Francisco MUNI. We're just not used to seeing it here.

It's not any worse than waiting for the bus is already.

[monsoon]

For a light rail line, not a street car, and one that is costing a half a billion dollars, I would have hoped that would have raised the bar a bit higher than something like waiting on the bus on the side of the road. Putting a transit station in the middle of South Blvd was one of the dumbest decisions that I think they could have made and even worse, they spent a huge amount of money doing it. No wonder the city is now in the dubious position of having to pay developers to develop around this station.

If you want people to use transit, and I am talking about those that don't already use the bus, then you have to make it convenient and easy to use. This station being stuck in the middle of one of the major thoroughfares in Charlotte does not do this. And this doesn't even take into account the 4 grade crossings they created to make this tragedy possible.

It amazes me that people here continue to make excuses for what is one of the most badly run civic projects in this county. The more I see what they are doing with this system, especially the waste and bad design, and the missed opportunities to build something much better, the less hope that I have this train is going to make much difference at all.

[orulz]

This is not a transit station in the middle of a freeway. South Blvd has two lanes of traffic on either side of the transit station. The grade crossings (are there four new crossings?) are certainly regrettable. But a LRT stop in the median of a road is a setup that exists in countless cities in countless countries and works just fine. As long as the crosswalk isn't one of those damn push-button jobs (God I hate those) then this setup will be quite fine, quite convenient, and quite easy to use.

According to this rendering:

it looks like there will be a planting strip with grass and trees, plus a guard rail between passengers and the road. Seems like the riders will be pretty well sheltered to me, and the way that this really does open up development on both sides of the tracks seems like this is certainly worthwhile.

This is far better than just waiting for the bus on the side of the road in that:

1. There's more than just a bus stop sign to indicate where the bus will stop. There is a station!

2. You can wait under one of several decently sized canopies in bad weather, or under one of the trees lining the platform when it's hot, or on a bench when you're tired.

3. The platform is big, and you can wait anywhere along the platform, rather than just next to a signpost, or at most huddled under a small shelter.

4. You know exactly when the train is going to arrive, so you don't need to worry about getting there 10 minutes early only to find that your bus is running 20 minutes late.

5. You know the train is going to stop for you, so you don't have to worry about the driver not seeing you and having to flag the bus down.

6. Lastly, you're waiting for a train, not a bus.

[uptownliving]

They could have elevated this section of track. But that added cost could have put this project too low on the Cost Effectiveness rating, killing any chances of funding.

People cross 2 to 4 lanes of traffic on uptown streets everyday, most of the time without incident. So I really don't see what the big deal is about people having to cross 2 lanes of South Blvd at signalized crosswalks.

That section of South Blvd is a much better road today than it was before they split it and put in the median. Before the split you had super skinny lanes that midsize cars could barely fit in and the tracks were on a berm that abutted the road. This new design makes the LRT station much more accessible to the East side of the tracks. If they had left things as is then people walking from the East side would of had to cross 4 lanes compared to the 2 lanes they have to cross today to reach the LRT station.

[monsoon]

I think I mentioned above this station can't look like that really old rendering and this won't be the first time we have been presented a rendering where the reality is quite different. We have been sold a bill of goods that won't exist.

For one thing, there simply isn't enough room to plant trees around the station. The trees will be a hazard to traffic and one that will get worse as time goes on. I can't imagine the DOTs would even consider it. That rendering also presents S. Blvd as a minor city street and nothing is further from the truth. It is heavenly traveled all day long with everything from cars to construction equipment trucks, etc etc. I recently had the need to cross this street near there and it is a dangerous and risky task. I don't see how it could ever be made safe for children, the handicapped or the elderly. If you are physically fit and can run, it might be OK if you pay attention.

It's a terrible design for something that is supposed to be pedestrian friendly.

How in the world are they going to plant big towering trees as shown in that rendering between that concrete pad and South Blvd? There isn't even a curb there for the road yet. If they were supposed to have designed this station to look like that rendering, then they have failed.

[revitalize]

heavy traffic volumes, construction traffic, etc. That's how South Blvd. is NOW... but let's envision it in a few years. You can plant a street tree in a 6' strip and it will do fine. I think that over time, more and more traffic calming devices will be added along South Blvd, and i could even see some narrowing of lanes taking place. Broad crosswalks will be added, perhaps with flashing lights & warnings when someone has pressed the button for the crosswalk. The city's not going to allow an LRT station to be an 'unsafe' thing...

[monsoon]

You can't plant trees where cars are going to crash into them and that would be the case in that situation. One minor driver mistake and South Blvd is closed down. That is why the city and the state does not plant large trees close to thoroughfares and never mind the things they would drop onto speeding traffic.

The only way I see it working is to reduce South Blvd to one lane. Of course there are a lot of people in this city that will say the building of transit should not worsen traffic congestion which is what doing something like that would do. It's supposed to be the other way around. In any case there is no politician in his right mind that would advocate cutting off the traffic on South Blvd to something like what is shown in that rendering. Where is it going to go? I-77 is already overloaded and getting worse every day.

[Miesian Corners]

The closest (and most relevant) LRT system with stations like Scaleybark is Minneapolis's Hiawatha Line. The pic below is of 50th St/Minnehaha station next door to my friend's house. The line runs along Hiawatha Ave for most of its length and has eight (I think) at-grade crossings.

[MZT]

I'll grant monsoon his point about the trees. One of my relatives is a city planner in NC and I've heard some sadly laughable scenarios where the city puts trees in a median, and the highway department was itching to remove them. Don't take the illustration too literally on that.

[monsoon]

Even though Minneapolis stop that isn't nearly as busy as South Blvd, this is a better design than what they are doing Scalybark since it sits on the side of the road.

However when the Hiawatha opened there was immediate criticism at what those grade crossings did to traffic in terms of causing it to backup. The fact was noted here several years ago on UrbanPlanet. It brought out a lot of transit critics as can be seen here in this article. [url=http://www.rppi.org/lightrailscandal.shtml]Light Rail

[uptownliving]

I am not familiar with this transit line MC, but I don't see any TOD in this picture. Is there some TOD at this stop that is outside the frame?

[uptownliving]

According to the rendering: it looks like there will be a planting strip with grass and trees, plus a guard rail between passengers and the road. Seems like the riders will be pretty well sheltered to me, and the way that this really does open up development on both sides of the tracks seems like this is certainly worthwhile.

[uptownliving]

All of this could have been avoided and most likely at less cost, by putting a little more thought into the Scaleybark design. Instead of creating that "weave" on South Blvd., they should have routed the tracks where the west lane of S. Blvd is located and then they could have used a station design more like what is shown in the Minneapolis photo. Easier access, less disruptive to traffic, and more condusive to building up retail around the station. I can't think of one good reason for doing it the way it was done.

[monsoon]

After examining the pictures I am far less discouraged about the location of the platforms. However, you will not by any means catch me using this station, I like my life too much.....

[atlrvr]

Boston's Green line runs in the median of state highways on 3 of 4 branches. They are all much tighter than this, and all have comparable traffic to South Blvd....it's not an issue.

I guess the main difference is, Boston drivers all expect a pedestrian to dart in front of them at any time, whereas Charlotte driver's don't understand the state law about crosswalks...Check on Elizabeth through CPCC's campus to see a good example of this.

[revitalize]

I guess the main difference is, Boston drivers all expect a pedestrian to dart in front of them at any time, whereas Charlotte driver's don't understand the state law about crosswalks...Check on Elizabeth through CPCC's campus to see a good example of this.

[monsoon]

Boston's Green line runs in the median of state highways on 3 of 4 branches. They are all much tighter than this, and all have comparable traffic to South Blvd....it's not an issue.

I guess the main difference is, Boston drivers all expect a pedestrian to dart in front of them at any time, whereas Charlotte driver's don't understand the state law about crosswalks...Check on Elizabeth through CPCC's campus to see a good example of this.

[monsoon]

.....

What CATS did was basically put the west lane of South Blvd where that access road was. This allowed them to stay pretty much within the existing right of way, therefore they avoided a lot of expensive property transactions. It was cheaper to do it they way they did, then the way you recommended.

[nowensone]

I'm for the trees (bigger the better) 100%. They provide an aesthetic benefit, help shield waiting passengers, and will almost certainly slow down drivers, being as close to the road as they will be. South Blvd. is a thouroughfare, I am aware, but if it the trees and the station itself reduce traffic on it then I would see that as a benefit, and part of the goal to make people use transit. I have seen quite a few stations like this on 3 lane roads (per side), trees and all, and they work well, and turn thoroughfares into streets again.

[orulz]

And unfortunately this is the biggest problem with this station. I don't know why they felt they needed to elevate miles of the tracks out where it doesn't matter, then turn around and build this disaster. These are very narrow platforms and furthermore they are less than the width of a standard sidewalk away from the speeding traffic on South Blvd. Who would want to stand near that while waiting for a train?

As far as the trees are concerned, they have to build a shoulder for the road else it is very dangerous. Once that is put in then you are talking about no space left for anything except maybe a crash wall to keep a car from careening into the platform where the people will be standing for a train. Look at those photos especially the one with the red SUV. What is going to happen if a dump truck or something runs off the road there?

[monsoon]

This is a aerial of the track before it was rerouted. I simply don't understand why they though it was a good idea to split South Blvd in 1/2, and then move it to where the track existed prior to this development, and then route the track into the middle of this highway. It's like, "lets make this thing as difficult to use as possible". BTW, that parking lot in that aerial is where the station could have been located and directly incorporated into something much more attractive that would drive transit, not scare people away from it. And this doesn't even get into the issue that in doing this, they made the train cross South Blvd twice.

What am I missing here? Why did they do this? It doesn't make any sense.

[uptownliving]

I don't understand this statement. They could have put the train on that old access road instead and avoided all of the grade crossings. And then they would have had plenty of room to develop the station because they own the land that joins this access road.

[nowensone]

^^ They wanted the track in the middle of South Blvd. so as not to create barriers to development on either side of the road that would take advantage of the transit corridor.

[orulz]

...And this doesn't even get into the issue that in doing this, they made the train cross South Blvd twice.

[monsoon]

^^ They wanted the track in the middle of South Blvd. so as not to create barriers to development on either side of the road that would take advantage of the transit corridor.