New Urban Village Near Scaleybark Light Rail Station

[dubone]

Nope, that was Pope. Similar consonants, but different developer.

Pope is out of ATL. Papp is from here.

Now, of course, if he wins, this will officially become a strip mall .

As for Furman, I'm not so sure he swung. I think he bunted.

[kpryde4u]

wow! I like all three.

[monsoon]

There is an article in today's paper that says the city council has halted plans, at the moment, to develop this station as a showcase of TOD. The article wasn't very clear to the reasons, but it appears the city isn't getting the kind of return on their investment they were hoping for. In addition, council members from other parts of the city, Nancy Carter is mentioned, are making the issue the city is spending too much money on the South LRT and need to focus on other parts of the city as well.

It's a disappointing development.

[MZT]

I think it makes the city look bad. It sounds like the developers put plans together that would allow the city to recover the cost of their acquisitions. The city must have been thinking about collecting a profit, like the Tyvola site.

Just more indications they're hunting for revenue, and we should gird for a property tax inrease soon.

[RiverwoodCLT]

They all must get over it. Everybody must wait their turn. I am sure all transit routes were funded, you would hear any complains.

[uptownliving]

It is really just a matter of getting the numbers to work. The city would like to see some type of return on their investment. Their plan was to use the money for this land as a type of revolving fund so they could do this same type of thing along the other lines when their time came.

The City Council will be discussing this on Monday, will be interesting to see what course they take.

[Charlotte_native]

I'm curious, since the article in the paper doesn't indicate much, how they are making the determination that the city isn't getting enough in return for this. If they sell it they generate income and the city doesn't develop (which they tend to do poorly at). A private developer will develop and the city has had a chance to have input as to what is done. The development then creates a huge new tax revenue from property taxes.

It almost seems to me that there are always those out there that want to oppose any and everything.

[dubone]

I think the idea is to wait until next year and hope that the value will have increased that they get more for the land. Now, the developers are deducting the public elements of the project from the land value. If a year from tomorrow, when the LRT is scheduled to open, the land value is higher, we can get the appreciation on the land and lose only a year's worth of taxes.

I sure hope the plan works and doesn't scare away the developers for next year. But frankly, I think it would have been a bad symbol for the line if they had gone forward and practically given the land away.

Hopefully, with impact fees in place (if that is the chosen approach), maybe the developments can recover the costs of expanded libraries, and other infrastructure without squeezing the land price down to zero.

[monsoon]

I'm curious, since the article in the paper doesn't indicate much, how they are making the determination that the city isn't getting enough in return for this. If they sell it they generate income and the city doesn't develop (which they tend to do poorly at). A private developer will develop and the city has had a chance to have input as to what is done. The development then creates a huge new tax revenue from property taxes.

It almost seems to me that there are always those out there that want to oppose any and everything.

[dubone]

I tend to think the city wanted something for nothing. Earlier in the South line thread, people were talking about how the city and CATS was crazy to expect that they could get a parking deck subsidized by private developers through mandate/deed restriction. In the end, those skeptics were right, and the private developers discounted the land price to reflect the extra cost of those public services.

Maybe Lochman is right, that the city is just trying to do this too early, and to wait an extra year or more for appreciation to offset those public costs.

[voyager12]

I hope this action by the Council does not signal a general backpedaling by the city regarding progressive TOD around the LRT. I understand that the numbers have to work but all this hemming and hawing sends a bad message. Is Charlotte gvt truly committed to creating outstanding high density development where it would really work or not? Like so many other things in this town, the PR rollout and talking points sound great but more often than not the words are not translated into the final product.

[Conformity]

Not one of the 3 plans gives the city one penny for the land. Each one of the development teams showed the land in the deal as a "give". On top of that, each plan has a "gap" beyond the land giveaway. The gap varies from developer to developer.

[monsoon]

^That would seem to confirm what I said earlier.

[MZT]

Is the cost of the parking deck and library in excess of the value of the land? Oh well, I guess a commercial appraiser would be needed to sort that out.

[Charlotte_native]

This could easily be posturing by both sides to try and move stalled negotiations. If all the developers were basically hoping to get the land for free, the city might have decided to essentially pull it off the table. That could force whomever was willing to actually pay for the land to finally make that decision.

It isn't unusual for developers to want to push for as much as they can get now is it??

[monsoon]

I was looking at this property this weekend, and it is a problematic place to try to develop into a place where people might want to live. It's one thing to live within walking distance of a train station. It's quite different to live right on top of the train station and the tracks. I think this is the reason that 3030 South is so slow to sell out. You have a train on one side (with a 3.5 minute cycle time most of the day) and busy South Blvd on the other. In most cities, land next to train tracks is not highly valued for residential space and maybe most developers are reluctant to take on the risk without significant gaurantees from the city. (re cash)

The other problem with Scalybark, is that it is well outside the Dilworth/South End affluent area, and anyone deciding to develop this property is going to be the first to do so and the people investing there will be urban pioneers. They probably, correctly assume, they can't make the same profit in this location.

[ChiefJoJo]

City officials are still negotiating with each of the developers, so the details aren't final. But none of the original proposals gave the city much money back, in part because of the cost of incorporating parking for the station and affordable housing.

The money is a particular concern now because the South Corridor's recent cost overruns pushed the total price tag to $462.7 million.

Beyond that, the city is spending $50 million on streets, sidewalks and other improvements around stations.

Charlotte should give that investment time to work before offering subsidies, said Republican Don Lochman.

"We are drastically premature here," he said.

Democrat Nancy Carter said she was concerned that there is too much focus on the South Corridor and not enough on the rest of the city.

"What I think we have to do is balance," she said.

I think CATS wanted to get this deal done to be able to put it on the "balance sheet" for the overrun LRT project as income. It is sort of astounding that after $462M for the line and $50M in other infrastructure investments, the developers still want more money from the city for this TOD. Amazing, and I can't blame the council for reacting with caution. Maybe, once the LRT is running, the land will fetch more interest and become a more appealing potential development.

[monsoon]

I think the other problem with this are is there are at least 3 grade crossings maybe 4 that cut S. Blvd and Old Pineville Rd. It's like they tried to make it difficult since all of these crossings are on S. Blvd. It's going to have a very negative affect on the traffic there and it confounds me that CATS did such a poor design in this section. With trains going through there ever 3.5 minutes I see total gridlock coming and that isn't going to be that condusive to living either.

[uptownliving]

Here is a recent pic of the Skaleybark Station. The property in question is on the Left side of the tracks.

[monsoon]

Looking at the tax records, the two parcels of land are basically the two properties that used to make up the old Queen Park drive in movie that used to be on South Blvd. The tall tower is the old movie marquee from those days. (I believe they plan to save it). Today thee is a stip mall and a parking lot for a now defunct 6 screen movie theater that was built there when the drive in closed.

Around this property, the train will have to cross the highway 4 times.

• North weave across South Blvd

• The New Clanton Rd exchange

• South weave across South Blvd

• Old Pineville road exchange.

I can't understand the thinking behind this.

[uptownliving]

City Council voted tonight to move forward with this project. They will now be going back to the developers asking them to redraw their plans to present the highest cost they can possibly pay for the land and minimize public investment. To do that they will lower the amount of affordible housing.

There is already $2M in Housing Trust Fund allocated for this project and $5.5M for a new library. CATS is also looking for 315 parking spaces. The rest is up to the developers.

This process will move quickly as CATS needs to get an answer in about 30 days. At that point they will either go with the selected RFP and have them build a parking deck or CATS will build a surface lot.

[dubone]

That sounds like a good choice. I'm a little bit confused by this. Were the developers planning to use up the $7.5m AND free land? I realize that the real dollars that would have come out of the land price would have still gone in to assets that are city goals, but I agree that now is not the time to appear to be giving away everything.

I wonder if the BofA team and the Crosland teams will increase the density of their plans. Both have significantly less density than Pappas' proposal.

As for the comments about the negatives of this land, I believe that a sizeable place-making project would overcome those negatives. All the lights and crossings will not be that different from all the blocks in and around downtown, which have had decent growth. It is also very convenient to retail, which people tend to put a major plus on. I could see myself living in that area.

I've been a supporter of the city plans to put LRT in the median in this area. It might slow down traffic a bit, but that is part of the city's general plan. They want South to become less of a high speed thoroughfare, in to a neighborhood supporting thoroughfare with calmer traffic. But also, they are creating more connectivity in this area than currently exists. They have a new pass through from Clanton to Old Pineville to allow people to skip South altoghether. It also allows for more evenly spaced blocks, wider lanes, and separated traffic, which leads to fewer accidents that slow traffic far more than waiting 20 seconds for a train to pass.

[ChiefJoJo]

Around this property, the train will have to cross the highway 4 times.

I can't understand the thinking behind this.

[monsoon]

Possibly, but unfortunately we are only talking about a 9 acre piece of property for this development assuming the actual station and parking is going to take up much of the other parcel. This won't be an earth shattering TOD as a result but rather a fairly isolated piece of property.

What might have been better would have been for them to push the tracks further west, and look to develop the other side of South Blvd as TOD since there is a lot more land, including a old strip mall for them to do that. There is an old neighborhood of 60s ranch houses that would be a prime place for heavy TOD redevelopment. As it is, those people have to cross not only S. Blvd but also the train tracks to get to the station.

I think it was a lot of over engineering, now that I see it in detail, for not a lot of benefit.

[dubone]

That strip mall is going to be redeveloped, too. There is much more available land west of the tracks, and it isn't isolated, as it is between Tryon and South, two of the most important thoroughfares in Southwest Charlotte. Putting southbound South Blvd west of the tracks doesn't hurt the land east of the tracks, but it certainly helps the land west of the tracks.

We will see what the developers come back with, knowing that the city doesn't want to contribute much to add a lot of affordable housing into the mix. But in general, having up to $250m in development and up to 1200 residential units, and up to $100ksf in retail space does not make this something to sneeze at.

Being on the only transit line under construction, on a major thoroughfare, near Charlotte's main roadway (Tryon), a couple mile from major retailing centers, and only 3 miles from downtown means this is a development location that is far from isolated. (Well, it is isolated from downtown Huntersville, but other than that) it is in the middle of everything.