New Urban Village Near Scaleybark Light Rail Station

[lupitachica]

I'm a bit confused by all this. Maybe one of you could explain. Based on this picture doesn't putting the light rail down the middle of South Blvd further seperate the side with Whitton Street from the side that'll have the park? Since this is light rail, not bus service, I'm thinking that crossing from one side to the other would be very difficult even with added crosswalks - if the train comes with any frequency. I mean I doubt the train is going to stop at the light, right? I'm trying to understand the logistics of this but honestly, I'm not getting it.

I can give a NYC comparison cause that's what I'm most familiar with. Essentially, the idea of this new station reminds me a bit of the LIRR traveling over Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn - Atlantic Avenue being 3 lanes on each side with a middle section that cars use to turn The LIRR is elevated over Atlantic Avenue though. There are sidewalks - rather narrow in some areas - on either side of this 8 lane (I think - its wide street) and various places along the grid to cross.

What I'm not seeing with this Scaleybark thing is how are pedestrians supposed to cross with ease when the train is on the ground. If someone lives on Weaona & wants to go shopping at the retail stores (from the picture) it seems like it would be rather difficult to get to the other side of the light rail. And if the person who lives on Weaona has to get into their car to comfortably travel to the park or the new stores - then it seems the development of this kind of public transportation misses its mark a bit. Shouldn't the train & all the development provide a benefit to a large radius? Maybe I'm missing something.

[uptownliving]

I'm a bit confused by all this. Maybe one of you could explain. Based on this picture doesn't putting the light rail down the middle of South Blvd further seperate the side with Whitton Street from the side that'll have the park? Since this is light rail, not bus service, I'm thinking that crossing from one side to the other would be very difficult even with added crosswalks - if the train comes with any frequency. I mean I doubt the train is going to stop at the light, right? I'm trying to understand the logistics of this but honestly, I'm not getting it.

[monsoon]

Yes, we now have two crossings for the trains, and because of the extremely narrow platforms, more delays so people will have time to walk across South Blvd because they have to activate signals every time someone needs to get onto one of those small platforms. I wonder how long it will take for someone to get struck by a car as they rush across SB to try and catch a departing train? They couldn't have made it worse for all concerned if they had tried. Wait, they did try. It's got to be one of the most incomprehensible things that I think they could have done on this transit line and makes absolutely no sense at all.

.....

What I'm not seeing with this Scaleybark thing is how are pedestrians supposed to cross with ease when the train is on the ground. If someone lives on Weaona & wants to go shopping at the retail stores (from the picture) it seems like it would be rather difficult to get to the other side of the light rail. And if the person who lives on Weaona has to get into their car to comfortably travel to the park or the new stores - then it seems the development of this kind of public transportation misses its mark a bit. Shouldn't the train & all the development provide a benefit to a large radius? Maybe I'm missing something.

[nowensone]

Can you explain how, in that photo that I just posted, a transit station located on that track would hurt development whereas one in the middle of a relocated south blvd does not.

[monsoon]

I wouldn't use as strong a term as "hurt" as far as development, but the tracks as they were on the one side of South caused a barrier that must be crossed for anyone on the other side of the road. ...

[atlrvr]

I've seen hundreds of photos of Boston's green line posted and I don't think I have ever seen anything close to what is being created on South Blvd, given the volume of traffic on that road. However I don't live there as you do so maybe you can provide a specific example that would indicate the Scaleybark station, essentially two concrete slabs plopped down in the median of South Blvd, is a good design after all, that it will in fact reflect the rendering posted above, and that people will enjoy using this station.

[ChiefJoJo]

As far as the trees go, I would say there's a 99% chance they will put in a curb separating the inside lanes of South Blvd and the trees (if they are planted)/platform area, so that it will function just like any other tree-lined street. DOT regs require some sort of barrier between traffic and pedestrians--that's why you can't have a sidewalk next to a curb-less road--no barrier.

Everything that I've been told is that SB South Blvd was moved westward (and the tracks in the new median) in order to accomodate full vehicle access to the Scaleybark TOD site(s). NCDOT agreed (reluctantly) to this scenario in exchange for CDOT/CATS taking control of maintaining this stretch of track & roadway. Accomodating the western-side TOD was the ONLY reason the road was moved.

[monsoon]

..... NCDOT agreed (reluctantly) to this scenario in exchange for CDOT/CATS taking control of maintaining this stretch of track & roadway. Accomodating the western-side TOD was the ONLY reason the road was moved.

[revitalize]

What I'm not seeing with this Scaleybark thing is how are pedestrians supposed to cross with ease when the train is on the ground. If someone lives on Weaona & wants to go shopping at the retail stores (from the picture) it seems like it would be rather difficult to get to the other side of the light rail. And if the person who lives on Weaona has to get into their car to comfortably travel to the park or the new stores - then it seems the development of this kind of public transportation misses its mark a bit. Shouldn't the train & all the development provide a benefit to a large radius? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Miesian Corners]

I am not familiar with this transit line MC, but I don't see any TOD in this picture. Is there some TOD at this stop that is outside the frame?

[lupitachica]

Seeing the Boston examples and knowing the the trains are only 2 cars long, I have a clearer picture of how South Blvd may look. I guess I think "train" and envision huge iron horses whizzing by. The Boston versions don't seem nearly as treacherous as I'd imagined.

[monsoon]

... The auto traffic patterns will be complicated too, but i think in the end it provides a good traffic calming point for South Blvd. and forces some commuter traffic to other routes. If you don't want to sit in traffic you can get on the LRT and cruise right on by.

[orulz]

and because of the extremely narrow platforms,

[uptownliving]

Hmm. Anybody know how many feet wide these platforms are? Sure, they're not 30 feet wide apiece, but they're at least a good 12 feet wide, and I'd guess more like 15 or 16. I wouldn't call this really wide, but I also wouldn't say it's extremely narrow. I'd call it "wide enough." The definition of extremely narrow is subjective, however, so your mileage will vary..

[monsoon]

Hmm. Anybody know how many feet wide these platforms are? Sure, they're not 30 feet wide apiece, but they're at least a good 12 feet wide, and I'd guess more like 15 or 16. I wouldn't call this really wide, but I also wouldn't say it's extremely narrow. I'd call it "wide enough." The definition of extremely narrow is subjective, however, so your mileage will vary.......

[dubone]

South Boulevard will be or has a 35mph speed limit when the city takes it over. There are also many many times when South Boulevard is already stopped for the major crosstown thoroughfares. This will cause no disruption for the people as they wait for the train to pass. I still hold that CATS should have saved the other $100-200m and simply crossed Arrowood, Archdale, and Woodlawn at grade, too.

There are two main transit reasons to build the station in the median. The first is that almost all of the current population in the area is on the east side of the tracks. All of those people would have had to cross 4 lanes of traffic to get to transit, which isn't bad, as it is what must be done all over Charlotte all the time by pedestrians. The other reason was to allow more predictable traffic patterns for the rail line with the new development on the west side of the tracks. Having random access driveways across the tracks for denser TOD development and the park and ride lot was seen as far more disruptive to the operation of the train than having signalized intersections with South Blvd. Trains can cross streets just like people, bikes, trucks, cars, and SUVs through the magic of traffic lights. We should all remember this from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. When one way says red, then the other way can go green.

There is a fence and planting strip and a curb protecting the people at the station from the cars passing by, again, going only 35mph by law.

I love this median. To me, it is a place-making design, creating a memorable spot, and making the only spot on South Boulevard that actually looks like a boulevard.

I do understand the controversy, though. At this point, it has been on the books with little debate for years. It is happening no matter what. We have to wait for facts on how it turns out, because it is too late to change it. If it turns out to be bad design, then add it to the list of why to fire Tober and sue Parsons. If it turns out to be fine, then don't add it to the list of why to fire Tober and sue Parsons (there are plenty of others ).

I have been a pedestrian in this area a dozen times, and I hated the old setup, and though I was going to die. I love the new setup and would gladly walk across South Boulevard in this area every day for a commute.

[monsoon]

I'm not so sure about 10-12 feet. Unless the person in the picture of the dumptruck is 3 foot 5 inches. Lets assume he's at least 5 feet tall. If this is the case, then I would estimate 15 feet, and that is if he is well below average height. In actuality I would guess that its closer to 16 feet wide. But as you said "When you take out at least a 1.5-2 ft safety barrior (yellow line) for the train, and something on the other side to keep peoples asses from hitting the cars whizzing by on South Blvd, subtract out the ticket machines supports and other things coming out of that concrete, then there really isn't much space left for people that would be waiting on a train." It does get a little cramped, but its not too bad.

[revitalize]

I dunno, I drove by on my way home from work today, and the platforms look fine to me. 15' x 200' on each side of the tracks is plenty of room for the predicted number of passengers waiting at any one time I'm sure.

btw, here is the prelim site plan for the station if you haven't seen it. not too much detail given, and i imagine the parking scenario might change depending on what development scenario gets selected for the TOD nearby.

[monsoon]

I take note that design was done by Parsons, according to that drawing. This was the company which was fired by CATS for doing very bad design work, incompetent project management, and wasting a lot of money. CATS chief basically blamed all the known flaws on this system on this company, Maybe this is a flaw that has yet to be discovered and/or admitted to by CATS.

To be fair, the preliminary drawing does show 15 ft wide platforms however it does not show any provisions for plantings as shown in the early renderings. It does say not to use this drawing for construction so i not sure that it matters.

[dubone]

Are there any posters or lurkers that actually live in the Scaleybark area and plan to commute there? I'm curious what the opinions are from people who both live the driving of that section of South, and the walking in the area.

I'm glad the city is not treating South as a high speed expressway, but rather as a slower urban city street. The city made awful decisions like that in the University City area. By instead treating the street as something that people will and should walk along and across, bike along and across, and drive slowly on, the prophesy fulfills itself. The street becomes a high speed corridor that you can barely cross or walk along if treated like that in planning and design.

[monsoon]

I'm glad the city is not treating South as a high speed expressway, but rather as a slower urban city street. .

[uptownliving]

Just got done watching the City Council discuss the latest proposals for the Scaleybark TOD.

Crosland/McCormick is out of the running, they are asking for a $30M TIF which staff thought was unreasonable.

That leaves us with BofA Centro and Scalybark Partners.

BofA has the best numbers right now: $6M for the land, plus they would build a parking deck for CATS at no cost.

Scaleybark Partners is offering $3M for the land and a surface lot for CATS at no cost. At a later stage they might build a parking deck at no cost.

The main difference in the proposals is that Scaleybark is a denser development and it provides nearly twice as much tax revenue to the City on an annual basis. So in the long term (20 years) the Scaleybark proposal puts a lot more money in the City coffers.

At this time the City staff is leaning towards recommending Scaleybark Partners, however there are still some issues that must be resolved.

1. The subsidised housing needs to be dispersed throughout the development. Their current proposal has all the subsidised housing in one building.

2. They need to up their offer for the land to get the fair market value of $8M. There are many ways they can get to that $8M number: more money for the land, build the parking deck, or build another public building at no cost to the city.

Staff will work with both BofA and Scaleybark this week to fine tune their proposals and present their best and final offer on Jan 31 to the City Council Economic Development Cmte.

[uptownliving]

NCDOT agreed (reluctantly) to this scenario in exchange for CDOT/CATS taking control of maintaining this stretch of track & roadway. Accomodating the western-side TOD was the ONLY reason the road was moved.

[dubone]

My point is that they are trying to fix the 'mess'. They are making it a 35mph corridor with city street standards (before it was the ultra-low streetscape and walkability standards of the NCDOT). It will have improved cross walks, sidewalks, curbs, street trees, and slower traffic. My thesis is that building an elevated train on a hill that blocks off the western part of the tracks (as it was before) with an overhead pedestrian walkway, as proposed as in this thread, would keep the previous situation of being highly unfriendly to pedestrians. I think by avoiding grade separations, and converting all of the crazy elevations there to a wide urban boulevard with light rail in the median and ample pedestrian accommodations is much more urban and placemaking. The old design was eminently forgetable, and a design with lots of grade separations would solidify that bad design.

Thanks for the update, U/L. I missed the meeting due to another meeting. I'm surprised that the Scaleybark Partners only have a surface lot. I bet that means they have reduced the quality of the development as a part of the reworking of the proposal. I'll have to take another look to see if I still support them.

[RiverwoodCLT]

In Houston they have stations in the middle of the street for their LRT. I did not see any problems there of people getting to the station.