More Job Losses

[runawayjim]

In America, if you're willing to pay good money, you'll get the best healthcare in the world. Fortunately, I'm able to afford this, and I will not stand by idily if the government forced me to see certain doctors. I demand to see who I want, when I want. Hard working people who make good money should be able to spend it on the best doctors if they so choose.

Our healthcare system is flawed; I never said it wasn't. The fact that 45 million don't have any sort of health insurance is proof of this. As I stated earlier, I'd be happy to dish out a little more in order to cover these people. What I don't want is a nationalized system that not only takes away my right to see whoever I want, whenever I want, but also waters down the quality of the physicians.

there's actually an issue which is the reason why premiums are so expensive... americans go to the doctor for every little thing. those in countries with socialized health care do not. the internet is part of what is to blame for this (people thinking that a cough is a symptom of something much worse). i don't agree that people should be able to go to a doctor whenever they want. i think people need to learn to see dr. mom before a licensed physician. if the symptoms don't go away after 5 days, then see a doctor.

[HartfordTycoon]

In America, if you're willing to pay good money, you'll get the best healthcare in the world. Fortunately, I'm able to afford this, and I will not stand by idily if the government forced me to see certain doctors. I demand to see who I want, when I want. Hard working people who make good money should be able to spend it on the best doctors if they so choose.

Our healthcare system is flawed; I never said it wasn't. The fact that 45 million don't have any sort of health insurance is proof of this. As I stated earlier, I'd be happy to dish out a little more in order to cover these people. What I don't want is a nationalized system that not only takes away my right to see whoever I want, whenever I want, but also waters down the quality of the physicians.

Right, and even though this was unintentional I'm sure you implied that hard-working pretty much can afford health care. Many hardworking individuals who would love to have health care do not for various reasons and that is a terrible injustice in my opinion. If you don't want healthcare, no one if forcing it on you, Jimsawhill. I do know people who ARE BEING FORCED to live without healthcare though due to US Policy on this issue.

[SOCOM]

and when the justice system allows people to sue doctors for mal-practice for what would be considered a normal mistake or one of the risks, the system is no longer the free system that jim sawhill likes to think it is.

There should be, at the very least, a cap on the amount someone can sue for malpractice.

[damus]

there's actually an issue which is the reason why premiums are so expensive... americans go to the doctor for every little thing. those in countries with socialized health care do not. the internet is part of what is to blame for this (people thinking that a cough is a symptom of something much worse). i don't agree that people should be able to go to a doctor whenever they want. i think people need to learn to see dr. mom before a licensed physician. if the symptoms don't go away after 5 days, then see a doctor.

If this is the case then why don't insurance rates go up for people who overuse the system like they do with people who are involved in a lot of car accidents?

[HartfordTycoon]

If this is the case then why don't insurance rates go up for people who overuse the system like they do with people who are involved in a lot of car accidents?

That's a good question. I think it's because health is so subjective. Sometimes even the doctors can't find what's wrong with you and you wasted your time by going. There may really be a problem that the doctor couln't find. I don't think you should be penalized for that.

[SOCOM]

there's actually an issue which is the reason why premiums are so expensive... americans go to the doctor for every little thing. those in countries with socialized health care do not. the internet is part of what is to blame for this (people thinking that a cough is a symptom of something much worse). i don't agree that people should be able to go to a doctor whenever they want. i think people need to learn to see dr. mom before a licensed physician. if the symptoms don't go away after 5 days, then see a doctor.

That's not what I meant when I said I want to see a doctor whenever I want. What I meant was that I should be able to see a doctor within days of making an appointment rather than waiting weeks like many in other socialized countries.

[runawayjim]

If this is the case then why don't insurance rates go up for people who overuse the system like they do with people who are involved in a lot of car accidents?

insurance is a pool. it goes up for everyone when there's a lot of claims. that's why car insurance rates are so high in RI... more claims here.

[HartfordTycoon]

That's not what I meant when I said I want to see a doctor whenever I want. What I meant was that I should be able to see a doctor within days of making an appointment rather than waiting weeks like many in other socialized countries.

I have private insurance and still have to wait weeks much of the time. That can depend on whether your doctor or specialist tends to be very busy or not.

[runawayjim]

That's not what I meant when I said I want to see a doctor whenever I want. What I meant was that I should be able to see a doctor within days of making an appointment rather than waiting weeks like many in other socialized countries.

so you're saying it's a good thing that everyone does not have access to doctors because you can get appointments in days? you do realize that'll be the case if everyone even paid for their own health care, right?

[SOCOM]

I have private insurance and still have to wait weeks much of the time. That can depend on whether your doctor or specialist tends to be very busy or not.

But if it was something bordering on serious you wouldn't be wating weeks. In many of these socialized countries that you seem to adore, in many instances you are forced to wait.

so you're saying it's a good thing that everyone does not have access to doctors because you can get appointments in days?

Nope.

[jcrc]

Whoever said that those of us with healthcare would have to wait for the public healthcare? I would like to keep seeing my doctor too, but I would like for everyone to simply be able to see a doctor and have access to basic healthcare. Did anyone else see the report last week about how the wealthiest white Americans have the equivelent health of the poorest white English? I know there are other factors at play, but the fact remains that our healthcare system is flawed, inadequate and the laughing stock of the industrialized world. This will not change without some degree of socialization of US Healthcare.

First of all, universal healthcare, or universal anything for that matter, lowers the standard for all. Also, what it really boils down to, universal healthcare is for those who can afford healthcare to pay extra so those who cannot afford it will have the same care. It is easy for some to support universal healthcare if they have no problem with being generous with other people's money. For other, paying more for lesser care is a problem.

One thing I am sure of, if we are to have an universal healthcare system, and facing with a bill that is going up at 10+% a year, soo or later, those who are paying the bill will get sick and tire of it.

Health and healthcare is not the same thing. I doubt the wealthiest white Americans have the equivalent health of the poorest white English. Even if it is true, life style rather than healthcare is the major factor. If our healthcare system does not work, then those Canadians with the means would not have come across the border to pay to see American doctors when they can get "free" healthcare at home. Americans are buying drugs in Canada because they are voting with their pocket books, the assumption they are making is drugs in Canada are the same as those in the US, only cheaper. While Canadians who come over for healthcare are voting with their health. Their assumption is that the quality of care in the US is better, and for their health, they will forego free care at home, and pay for better care over here.

[SOCOM]

First of all, universal healthcare, or universal anything for that matter, lowers the standard for all.

Exactly. We shouldn't have to lower our standard of care in order to get everyone coverage. That's not a good solution, especially in the long term.

[HartfordTycoon]

Jcrc, you make good points. Does it not bother you that many can't afford healthcare or have access to doctors in this country. It clearly bothers me, as a moral issue. Everyone does not share the same morality though, and I think that is what this is boiling down to. Some of you have a real "not my problem" mentality that I do not share at all.

[runawayjim]

But if it was something bordering on serious you wouldn't be wating weeks. In many of these socialized countries that you seem to adore, in many instances you are forced to wait.

that's what the ER is for... something tht can't wait... something serious... an emergency.

[SOCOM]

that's what the ER is for... something tht can't wait... something serious... an emergency.

Not relevant, but thanks for the tip.

[HartfordTycoon]

First of all, universal healthcare, or universal anything for that matter, lowers the standard for all. Also, what it really boils down to, universal healthcare is for those who can afford healthcare to pay extra so those who cannot afford it will have the same care. It is easy for some to support universal healthcare if they have no problem with being generous with other people's money. For other, paying more for lesser care is a problem.

One thing I am sure of, if we are to have an universal healthcare system, and facing with a bill that is going up at 10+% a year, soo or later, those who are paying the bill will get sick and tire of it.

Health and healthcare is not the same thing. I doubt the wealthiest white Americans have the equivalent health of the poorest white English. Even if it is true, life style rather than healthcare is the major factor. If our healthcare system does not work, then those Canadians with the means would not have come across the border to pay to see American doctors when they can get "free" healthcare at home. Americans are buying drugs in Canada because they are voting with their pocket books, the assumption they are making is drugs in Canada are the same as those in the US, only cheaper. While Canadians who come over for healthcare are voting with their health. Their assumption is that the quality of care in the US is better, and for their health, they will forego free care at home, and pay for better care over here.

I saw the report. That is exactly what it said, but I took into account that lifestyle was a factor. With that being said though, the population is healthier in Europe and probably Canada as well than in the US. To me that kind of voids all of these arguments. Those are called results.

[runawayjim]

Jcrc, you make good points. Does it not bother you that many can't afford healthcare or have access to doctors in this country. It clearly bothers me, as a moral issue. Everyone does not share the same morality though, and I think that is what this is boiling down to. Some of you have a real "not my problem" mentality that I do not share at all.

that's my issue with capitalism. most capitalists (and in turn, most republicans) believe that everyone has a fair chance at making money in this country when that is simply not the case. at the same time, the boost that welfare offers for those who are having a hard time getting back on their feet should not be used as a crutch but rather just a quick pick me up to get out of a slump. that's part of the problem as well. but the other part is that many simply do not have the resources available to them to get either a good education to get a better paying job or know people who can help get them good paying jobs.

Not relevant, but thanks for the tip.

why not?

[SOCOM]

that's my issue with capitalism. most capitalists (and in turn, most republicans) believe that everyone has a fair chance at making money in this country when that is simply not the case. at the same time, the boost that welfare offers for those who are having a hard time getting back on their feet should not be used as a crutch but rather just a quick pick me up to get out of a slump. that's part of the problem as well. but the other part is that many simply do not have the resources available to them to get either a good education to get a better paying job or know people who can help get them good paying jobs.

A perfect example that all Americans do need healthcare. However, socializing our system isn't the answer.

[HartfordTycoon]

that's my issue with capitalism. most capitalists (and in turn, most republicans) believe that everyone has a fair chance at making money in this country when that is simply not the case. at the same time, the boost that welfare offers for those who are having a hard time getting back on their feet should not be used as a crutch but rather just a quick pick me up to get out of a slump. that's part of the problem as well. but the other part is that many simply do not have the resources available to them to get either a good education to get a better paying job or know people who can help get them good paying jobs.

why not?

Who would have thought? We agree on alot!! Just not Utopia. Maybe it's because I know we need to do things like that to survive in this capitalistic world where cash is king.

[jcrc]

Jcrc, you make good points. Does it not bother you that many can't afford healthcare or have access to doctors in this country. It clearly bothers me, as a moral issue. Everyone does not share the same morality though, and I think that is what this is boiling down to. Some of you have a real "not my problem" mentality that I do not share at all.

It is moral for some not to have healthcare? It is moral to force some to pay for others? In setting policy, do the needs of few out weight the needs of the majority? Or should majority prevail? I don't have an answer to that, and I suspect no one ever will. All I want to know is who is paying for it? And how much?

[runawayjim]

Who would have thought? We agree on alot!! Just not Utopia. Maybe it's because I know we need to do things like that to survive in this capitalistic world where cash is king.

i see utopia doing more damage to quality of life for those living around it than the money it'll bring. i also don't like dirty businessmen, which seems to be what joe gentile is.

[HartfordTycoon]

It is moral for some not to have healthcare? It is moral to force some to pay for others? In setting policy, do the needs of few out weight the needs of the majority? Or should majority prevail? I don't have an answer to that, and I suspect no one ever will. All I want to know is who is paying for it? And how much?

Exactly, that's why we don't see eye to eye. I care about that too, but only after examining the human toll regarding the majority interest or the minority interest. When blacks where enslaved the majority of Americans supported it. And it made very good economic sense. Good thing that didn't stay that way. Although, I bet a few of you would love have a source of infinite free labor.

Anyway, I would guess that many or a majority of Americans would take advantage of free healthcare as opposed to having it get taken from their check every pay period.

[jcrc]

I saw the report. That is exactly what it said, but I took into account that lifestyle was a factor. With that being said though, the population is healthier in Europe and probably Canada as well than in the US. To me that kind of voids all of these arguments. Those are called results.

If the report says the wealthiest white Americans have the equivalent healthcare of the poorest white English, and assuming the report is accurate, then you can say America's healthcare is inferior to those of Europe and Canada. But if the wealthiest white Americans smoke more, drink more, and eat more fatty foods, and have more stressful job, then it doesn't prove a thing.

[HartfordTycoon]

If the report says the wealthiest white Americans have the equivalent healthcare of the poorest white English, and assuming the report is accurate, then you can say America's healthcare is inferior to those of Europe and Canada. But if the wealthiest white Americans smoke more, drink more, and eat more fatty foods, and have more stressful job, then it doesn't prove a thing.

It would prove that they have better healthcare than us. The original point. You just said that the report says that rich white Americans in a capitalist system have the same healthcare as the poorest British in a universal healthcare system. I would say case closed on that note.

If the average American has more vices that is also an epidemic and nothing to be proud of. America has serious problems.

[damus]

Exactly, that's why we don't see eye to eye. I care about that too, but only after examining the human toll regarding the majority interest or the minority interest. When blacks where enslaved the majority of Americans supported it. And it made very good economic sense. Good thing that didn't stay that way. Although, I bet a few of you would love have a source of infinite free labor.

This has nothing to do with slavery. Back in those days the underclass also didn't get an education. Today we recognize that education is very important. It can be argued that healthcare is the new civil right. It can also be argued that our educational system is flawed; I think the lack of competition between schools/teachers is the biggest problem. A lot of good teachers follow the money to the better districts, well intentioned teachers who put themselves into rough situations get little in return and others who might do the same avoid the line of work because of it, and many other teachers just reach a level of complacency due to the lack of competition.

Healthcare is more complicated. My problem with universal healh care's effects on prescription drugs has already been mentioned, as have other problems including malpractice lawsuits and the overall lessening of quality. It hasn't been mentioned, but aren't doctors paid less in other parts of the world where universal health care is in place? I'm sorry, but a lot of bright individuals might choose a different profession with better pay/lower stress if they don't get the insane pay they get today.

I am for school vouchers, and I'm curious to see how Massachusetts' health care system works out. The government should never be in full control of these things. Our founders didn't trust the government to do anything right and saw it as a neccessary evil, and that's how I see it.