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ctman987

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If the report says the wealthiest white Americans have the equivalent healthcare of the poorest white English, and assuming the report is accurate, then you can say America's healthcare is inferior to those of Europe and Canada. But if the wealthiest white Americans smoke more, drink more, and eat more fatty foods, and have more stressful job, then it doesn't prove a thing.

yet another reason health care is so unaffordable by most... all that drives up the cost. although americans do not smoke more than europeans. americans are lazy, like it or not. hence the reason we eat so much fast food. the american business climate allows for businesses to force americans into stressful 50+ hour work weeks. europeans have a much better work life than americans. where else can you go and have just about the entire country close for a couple months?

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Exactly, that's why we don't see eye to eye. I care about that too, but only after examining the human toll regarding the majority interest or the minority interest. When blacks where enslaved the majority of Americans supported it. And it made very good economic sense. Good thing that didn't stay that way. Although, I bet a few of you would love have a source of infinite free labor.

Anyway, I would guess that many or a majority of Americans would take advantage of free healthcare as opposed to having it get taken from their check every pay period.

You are getting a little too emotional. I am not quite sure what does slavery have anything to do with universal healthcare. But if forcing someone against their will, namely slavery is bad, then how is it forcing those who are not willing to pay for other's healthcare good?

Free healthcare? Nothing is ever free. Someone has to pay for it.

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Our founders didn't trust the government to do anything right and saw it as a neccessary evil, and that's how I see it.

then why does the government regulate prescription drugs and other aspects of health care as much as they do? why does the government subsidize farmers, amtrak, airlines, etc? why does the government charge us income tax, sales tax, property tax?

the fact remains that the government, while in many cases can be a necessary evil, is really here for us and not their own personal gain.

i think you need to face the facts that america does not have the free market society that the founders wanted.

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yet another reason health care is so unaffordable by most... all that drives up the cost. although americans do not smoke more than europeans. americans are lazy, like it or not. hence the reason we eat so much fast food. the american business climate allows for businesses to force americans into stressful 50+ hour work weeks. europeans have a much better work life than americans. where else can you go and have just about the entire country close for a couple months?

It is a trade off. Lower productivity and economic stagnation vs. more stress and higher growth rate. Pick your poison.

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You are getting a little too emotional. I am not quite sure what does slavery have anything to do with universal healthcare. But if forcing someone against their will, namely slavery is bad, then how is it forcing those who are not willing to pay for other's healthcare good?

Free healthcare? Nothing is ever free. Someone has to pay for it.

I'm not emotional at all. I'm at work which sucks, but other than that I'm fine. I was just illustrating how the majority of Americans can and have supported things which were wrong and immoral. Slavery was good for everyone except the slaves, just like totally private healthcare is good for everyone who can afford it and terrible for those who can't. Sometimes as a nation we have had to suck it up to improve things overall. We already pay for things that we don't use with our taxes. That's just how it is sometimes. I went to a private college out of state, yet my CT State taxes pay for Uconn and the other Connecticut state schools. That doesn't bother me, just like it wouldn't bother me to chip in a little extra so people don't die and get sick due to lack of healthcare. Not saying they wouldn't still die or get sick, but at least they could be afforded better care when they do. ]

OK, so we do pay for plenty of thigs we don't directly use ourselves for the greater good. At least healthcare would be a pretty worthwhile cause to pay for. I'd rather pay for American's to have healthcare than the war in Iraq. Off topic, but I had to say it. Look at how they are spending our money. We need to outright demand they spend it more responsibly and to the benefit of Americans

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then why does the government regulate prescription drugs and other aspects of health care as much as they do? why does the government subsidize farmers, amtrak, airlines, etc? why does the government charge us income tax, sales tax, property tax?

the fact remains that the government, while in many cases can be a necessary evil, is really here for us and not their own personal gain.

i think you need to face the facts that america does not have the free market society that the founders wanted.

I agree with you there. We need regulations, though I'm not in favor of subsidizing private industry to the point where the USA does in the airline industry. I think we learned a good lesson in 1929. The government should always be as minimal and unintrusive as possible, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't step in now and then. It spends billions of dollars on drug wars, medicare, social security, and many other programs that are all flawed. At the same time, politicians take away freedoms guaranteed in the bill of rights with things like gun control and domestic spying. I'm not saying that we should be allowed to own our own personal nuclear weapons, but if you look at places like Australia before and after major gun control laws were enacted you see crime go up. on edit: I believe the decrease in crime after the assault weapons ban has more to do with a booming economy (it's still booming to this day) than with the law.

I guess it's not in 100% accordance to what the founders thought when I advocate for regulations, but they also didn't think of public schooling and healthcare as major issues. I think the country should evolve, but not into a socialistic country and universal health care is socialism. The environment this country provides is why we are seeing so many advances in medical technology. These companies need to make a profit, and universal health care systems have cut into those profits to the point where if the USA had the same system there might not be much money leftover to take billion dollar risks on drugs.

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It is a trade off. Lower productivity and economic stagnation vs. more stress and higher growth rate. Pick your poison.

that's one way to spin it.

how about much better quality of life vs a pretty poor quality of life except for those who make decent money (which is just not possible for everyone with our current society)?

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that's one way to spin it.

how about much better quality of life vs a pretty poor quality of life except for those who make decent money (which is just not possible for everyone with our current society)?

If that is how you want to spin it, I have no problem with that. Again, pick your poison.

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If that is how you want to spin it, I have no problem with that. Again, pick your poison.

I understand what you're saying and I think we've picked it. Healthcare for Americans now, and deal with whatever it does to the economy later is how I honestly feel on this one. What good is a rich nation full of sick people?

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I understand what you're saying and I think we've picked it. Healthcare for Americans now, and deal with whatever it does to the economy later is how I honestly feel on this one. What good is a rich nation full of sick people?

to add to that...

what good is a rich nation full of miserable people? :P

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I'm not emotional at all. I'm at work which sucks, but other than that I'm fine. I was just illustrating how the majority of Americans can and have supported things which were wrong and immoral. Slavery was good for everyone except the slaves, just like totally private healthcare is good for everyone who can afford it and terrible for those who can't. Sometimes as a nation we have had to suck it up to improve things overall. We already pay for things that we don't use with our taxes. That's just how it is sometimes. I went to a private college out of state, yet my CT State taxes pay for Uconn and the other Connecticut state schools. That doesn't bother me, just like it wouldn't bother me to chip in a little extra so people don't die and get sick due to lack of healthcare. Not saying they wouldn't still die or get sick, but at least they could be afforded better care when they do. ]

OK, so we do pay for plenty of thigs we don't directly use ourselves for the greater good. At least healthcare would be a pretty worthwhile cause to pay for. I'd rather pay for American's to have healthcare than the war in Iraq. Off topic, but I had to say it. Look at how they are spending our money. We need to outright demand they spend it more responsibly and to the benefit of Americans

How much is chip in a little? I think someone mentioned there are 45 million uninsured Americans. Assuming 1,000 per year for coverage, we are talking about 45 billions per year. There are about 132 million working Americans. The math comes to $340/year for every working Americans. If we exclude those working Americans who cannot afford healthcare in the first place, then the number is higher for those who can afford it. Let's just say it is $400/year. For my wife and I that is $800/year. I suppose if that is what it take for me to have a moral conscience, then I'll pay for it, but you better ask those live from pay check to pay check it is OK for them.

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good addition, I'll also add unproductive. When poor people get sick, they give up. What other option do they really have anyway?

I'll add that in terms of overall productivity the US is still #1. Some other countries, such as France, would have beat us out if they didn't work 35 hour workweeks...

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I'll add that in terms of overall productivity the US is still #1. Some other countries, such as France, would have beat us out if they didn't work 35 hour workweeks...

how important is productivity vs quality of life and general well-being? i bet the french are under a lot less stress and have a lot fewer mental health problems.

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how important is productivity vs quality of life and general well-being? i bet the french are under a lot less stress and have a lot fewer mental health problems.

You'll see more job losses if we lose our productivity... developing countries have been stealing enough from us we don't need to lose more...

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Poor and happy vs. rich and miserable. Again, pick your poison.

who's to say that we'll be poor. define poor. i bet it's different in europe and i bet they're perfectly happy not making the money that many of the greedy dirtbags here make (yes, i consider most CEO's of major corporations to be greedy dirtbags).

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who's to say that we'll be poor. define poor. i bet it's different in europe and i bet they're perfectly happy not making the money that many of the greedy dirtbags here make (yes, i consider most CEO's of major corporations to be greedy dirtbags).

hmmm...OK. Who's to say that we are miserable. Define miserable. If you think Europeans are better off than we are, you are entitle to your opinion. I personally think it's the other way around.

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We could certainly offset some the cost by raising taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and unhealthy foods. That would work pretty well, unless we actually change our habits. If that happens we won't need so much healthcare anyway. That would also encourage those who can't afford it, not to smoke, drink or eat unhealthy foods. The only loss is to the corporations that sell legalized narcotics and other poison. Not a huge problem in my view.

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We could certainly offset some the cost by raising taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and unhealthy foods. That would work pretty well, unless we actually change our habits. If that happens we won't need so much healthcare anyway. That would also encourage those who can't afford it, not to smoke, drink or eat unhealthy foods. The only loss is to the corporations that sell legalized narcotics and other poison. Not a huge problem in my view.

LEGALIZE ILLEGAL DRUGS. it's the answer to a lot of problems.

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LEGALIZE ILLEGAL DRUGS. it's the answer to a lot of problems.

And we could do that. That would serve many purposes, including crime reduction. There would be no drug crime in the inner cities anymore. Although, I have serious reservations regarding the legalization of hard drugs which I consider pretty much anything other than marijuana.

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And we could do that. That would serve many purposes, including crime reduction. There would be no drug crime in the inner cities anymore. Although, I have serious reservations regarding the legalization of hard drugs which I consider pretty much anything other than marijuana.

the only drugs i would have a problem with are those that cause other worldly problems like cocaine and probably heroin. LSD, for example, is not one of those, and either are most of the "designer" drugs like ecstasy. i think people should be able to do what they want to their bodies, including suicide if they really feel that way (hunter s thompson is a good example of that).

in addition to crime reduction, there'd be much less strain on prisons, more things to tax the hell out of, and less use (i read somewhere that in amsterdam and vancouver, there is much less pot use than you'd think because it's just not as fun for some to do something legally).

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And we could do that. That would serve many purposes, including crime reduction. There would be no drug crime in the inner cities anymore. Although, I have serious reservations regarding the legalization of hard drugs which I consider pretty much anything other than marijuana.

Alcohol, when abused, is one of the worst drugs on the body and is hard to quit (the hardest being cigarettes and caffeine). The alcohol prohibition stats are there. If it wasn't for the black market being there, I doubt all the drugs we now have to deal with would be as big a problem (many wouldn't have had a market in the first place). My theory is that once everything is legalized the generation or two after that point might see an increase in substance abuse followed by an eventual mellowing out.

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Alcohol, when abused, is one of the worst drugs on the body and is hard to quit (the hardest being cigarettes and caffeine). The alcohol prohibition stats are there. If it wasn't for the black market being there, I doubt all the drugs we now have to deal with would be as big a problem (many wouldn't have had a market in the first place). My theory is that once everything is legalized the generation or two after that point might see an increase in substance abuse followed by an eventual mellowing out.

alcohol and cigarettes (separately, even) are more harmful for your body than marijuana. in fact, there was a recent study that found that marijuana is less likely to cause cancer than cigarettes.

legalizing drugs might cause more people to use for a while afterward, but not for a whole generation or 2 (in fact, marijuana isn't even addictive). it'd maybe be seen for 5-10 years afterwards, but even that might be exaggerated. i'll have to find some of the facts about amsterdam and vancouver.

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alcohol and cigarettes (separately, even) are more harmful for your body than marijuana. in fact, there was a recent study that found that marijuana is less likely to cause cancer than cigarettes.

No one who is set in their belief otherwise believes this as credible .. but there was a story on yahoo news in which there was a study that determined that pot does not cause lung cancer (or any other form of cancer linked to smoking), period. I wouldn't drink past a beer now and then if pot was legal. I'd probably have a few plants out in the garden. I haven't touched the stuff since college, it's not worth getting a record for a little high.

legalizing drugs might cause more people to use for a while afterward, but not for a whole generation or 2 (in fact, marijuana isn't even addictive). it'd maybe be seen for 5-10 years afterwards, but even that might be exaggerated. i'll have to find some of the facts about amsterdam and vancouver.

I'm not talking about pot... I think pot supplanting alcohol as the high of choice in this country would be a good thing. Cocaine, among other drugs, was widely used in college. Most people I knew used it at least now and then, though I never did. That is a dangerous substance.

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