Sparkle City Eateries

[Sparkleman]

Well with RockWater and Abby's out of the picture, I doubt any new fine dining options will appear downtown anytime soon as its pretty obvious we either can't or won't support them.

[roads-scholar]

Well with RockWater and Abby's out of the picture, I doubt any new fine dining options will appear downtown anytime soon as its pretty obvious we either can't or won't support them.

What I'm writing here is strictly hearsay...but from what I've learned Abby's closed up shop not due to a lack of business but because their ten year tax abatement expired. The owner's benefited nicely from the abatement but decided to pack it in when the abatement expired.

Rock Water had the business, at least initially, but spotty service did them in. I dined there New Years Eve and waited nearly an hour for my entree.

Sadly, a lot of pundits will now assume that Spartanburg is a bad place to do business, especially if you're an upscale restaurant. I challenge that assumption. A well managed and well capitalized restaurant, or any business for that matter, can survive in lean times regardless of their location.

Both Abby's and Rock Water were were enthusiastically welcomed and supported by the community.

[Spartan]

I don't think pundits will say that unless they are just looking for a reason to justify an already existing opinion.

The fact that Abbey's could have remained in business but chose not to speaks only to the owner's personal choice, not Spartanburg's ability to support it. I never was able to get into RockWater Tavern because they closed at 10pm, but I understand that wasn't "upscale" in the sense of the other restaurants. The guy at RWT chose a bad location too. I think there is plenty of room for fine dining downtown. We don't really have that much of it in Spartanburg anyway. There's still Brasserie Ecosse (which I hear is phenomenal), Renato, and the Peddler, (am I missing any?). The only loss IMO is Abbey's since it had been a downtown staple for a decade. Spartanburg seems to have a problem of attracting bad restaurant managers. Think of all the restaurants that have closed over the past couple of years because of just a handful of people.

Does anyone remember if Ellis's Cafe closed because of a lack of business or because of bad ownership?

[spartanburgh]

Ellis closed because of bad ownership/management. It had a great business the first year of so but the owner got into drugs and down went the business.

I also noticed that Hub City Coffee on the corner of Church and St. John St. has closed. I heard a new office building or bank will be built and the buildings there will be torn down. They are not closing because of slow business, but because something bigger and better will be built there soon.

[hub-city]

Got to keep Justin's in the mix for a great steak downtown. I was always scared to go into Nga's. Just didn't look appealing to me.

[Spartan]

They are not closing because of slow business, but because something bigger and better will be built there soon.

I'm ok with that if indeed there is something better coming to that corner. There are plenty of locations for Hub City Coffee to locate. I'd like to see a more permanent location downtown... maybe where Cafe Ishi was.

[Sparkleman]

I don't think pundits will say that unless they are just looking for a reason to justify an already existing opinion.

The fact that Abbey's could have remained in business but chose not to speaks only to the owner's personal choice, not Spartanburg's ability to support it. I never was able to get into RockWater Tavern because they closed at 10pm, but I understand that wasn't "upscale" in the sense of the other restaurants. The guy at RWT chose a bad location too. I think there is plenty of room for fine dining downtown. We don't really have that much of it in Spartanburg anyway. There's still Brasserie Ecosse (which I hear is phenomenal), Renato, and the Peddler, (am I missing any?). The only loss IMO is Abbey's since it had been a downtown staple for a decade. Spartanburg seems to have a problem of attracting bad restaurant managers. Think of all the restaurants that have closed over the past couple of years because of just a handful of people.

Does anyone remember if Ellis's Cafe closed because of a lack of business or because of bad ownership?

I disagree that RWT was in a bad location. I mean it was right off of St John and about an 1/8 mile from Church. Plus it was easy to walk down to from the condos on Main rary Commons. It was right at the CCC and near Barnett Park. It also was secluded somewhat and had an awesome outside area with a homeade waterfall. How much better of a locale could it have? The McCalls made this place work for 10 years before RWT arrived (the name of it escapes me right now), so I don't think location figures into the problem

I went there several times and the service was spotty at times. Do any of you ever get the feeling that maybe we do not have enough folks in this town that want to work in the restaurant business and care about it? There are very few places here where the service is outstanding. INHO, the Brasserie, Justins, and City Range are the only places that really care about service. I can't speak for the 4 Seasons as I have not been there yet. Renato and the Peddler both blow in my opinion as the last couple of times I have been, it has not been a pleasant experience.

[roads-scholar]

Hi Sparkleman,

I read your posts and emote both laughter and amusement but you could have a point here. Spartanburg has enough people to work in most restaurants but do we have enough motivated, poised, and high caliber people that patrons of high-end restaurants expect?

When I dine at a restaurant where the tab pushes $50 and greater I expect not only exceptional fare but exceptional attention. To be completely honest I've usually always experienced this (and this might surprise you) in Spartanburg. My experiences regarding service Ellis Bistro and Abby's, to use as examples, were always wonderful.

That said, I've often asked myself how all the new and exciting eateries in town could possibly maintain this level of service. I realize we have six colleges in town to draw upon but nowadays college students don't always want to work in the service industry.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Spartan
removed quoted text

[Sparkleman]

I am aware that Abby's went away due to the owner just wanting to shutter it. What I don't get is why someone would not want to reopen it using the same business model that worked for 13 or so years. The guy down at RWT dumped 150K into that place and only made it 8 months. That just doesn't sound like the greatest business decision.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Sparkleman

[Spartan]

I disagree that RWT was in a bad location. I mean it was right off of St John and about an 1/8 mile from Church. Plus it was easy to walk down to from the condos on Main rary Commons. It was right at the CCC and near Barnett Park. It also was secluded somewhat and had an awesome outside area with a homeade waterfall. How much better of a locale could it have? The McCalls made this place work for 10 years before RWT arrived (the name of it escapes me right now), so I don't think location figures into the problem.

But what type of place used to be there? I never knew any restaurant had existed there before. The location given its target clientele was not ideal since the connections to all of those destinations you mention were poor. The sidewalks are in bad shape, not pleasant to walk on, or are hard to get to depending on which other place you are trying to go.

I realize we have six colleges in town to draw upon but nowadays college students don't always want to work in the service industry.

IMO its more prevalent than you think... its just that the type of students who go to Wofford or Converse are typically not the type who 'need' the money from working a job like that. People who go to USC Upstate are mostly commuters, and many of them come from Greenville and Gaffney, so they wouldn't necessarily work in Spartanburg. I would like to see a student resident population breakdown for each college. I suspect that it would be a very small number.

At any rate, I blame the poor service on management more so than the staff. Management at nice restaurants should train and expect a lot out of their servers. Another example... I assume everyone had great experiences at Sefano's before it closed.

[Jael]

But what type of place used to be there? I never knew any restaurant had existed there before.

It was a restaurant called the Spice of Life.

[Sparkleman]

But what type of place used to be there? I never knew any restaurant had existed there before. The location given its target clientele was not ideal since the connections to all of those destinations you mention were poor. The sidewalks are in bad shape, not pleasant to walk on, or are hard to get to depending on which other place you are trying to go.

IMO its more prevalent than you think... its just that the type of students who go to Wofford or Converse are typically not the type who 'need' the money from working a job like that. People who go to USC Upstate are mostly commuters, and many of them come from Greenville and Gaffney, so they wouldn't necessarily work in Spartanburg. I would like to see a student resident population breakdown for each college. I suspect that it would be a very small number.

At any rate, I blame the poor service on management more so than the staff. Management at nice restaurants should train and expect a lot out of their servers. Another example... I assume everyone had great experiences at Sefano's before it closed.

Well if its target crowd is mid to upscale Spartans, I assume you think we should put the next upscale restaurant in the middle of Converse Heights where the target crowd is? How does a cracked sidewalk or having to make an extra turn or two determine that this is a bad restaurant location? I don't understand this reasoning. I guess the next time the wife and I want to go upscale, if I tell her that there is nowhere to park, that there is sticky gum on the sidewalk, and that the sidewalk is not cushioned, we should take a pass on Justins? Apparently the division between Charlotte and the "SC" is a greater divide that I originally thought.

The "SC" is not used to having more than 5 upscale restaurants at any one time. Therefore they are all fighting over the limited number of qualified candidates to work in them. I feel there are many candidates at Wofford, Converse, USCU, SMC, etc. The problem is they may not want to work in this industry.

[roads-scholar]

Well if its target crowd is mid to upscale Spartans, I assume you think we should put the next upscale restaurant in the middle of Converse Heights where the target crowd is? How does a cracked sidewalk or having to make an extra turn or two determine that this is a bad restaurant location? I don't understand this reasoning. I guess the next time the wife and I want to go upscale, if I tell her that there is nowhere to park, that there is sticky gum on the sidewalk, and that the sidewalk is not cushioned, we should take a pass on Justins? Apparently the division between Charlotte and the "SC" is a greater divide that I originally thought.

The "SC" is not used to having more than 5 upscale restaurants at any one time. Therefore they are all fighting over the limited number of qualified candidates to work in them. I feel there are many candidates at Wofford, Converse, USCU, SMC, etc. The problem is they may not want to work in this industry.

Location, Location, Location. The most important qualifier for real estate.

However, look at Ike's. No retail synergy, mostly light traffic, and a crummy building. Yet, this establishment thrives and has developed an almost cult like following among its legions of patrons. Ike's has also generate some buzz from beyond Spartanburg. Can you believe it? People from Charlotte talking about Ike's in Spartanburg!

True, Ike's isn't "upscale" but they do attract a professional crowd, especially during the week.

[Spartan]

Well if its target crowd is mid to upscale Spartans, I assume you think we should put the next upscale restaurant in the middle of Converse Heights where the target crowd is? How does a cracked sidewalk or having to make an extra turn or two determine that this is a bad restaurant location? I don't understand this reasoning. I guess the next time the wife and I want to go upscale, if I tell her that there is nowhere to park, that there is sticky gum on the sidewalk, and that the sidewalk is not cushioned, we should take a pass on Justins? Apparently the division between Charlotte and the "SC" is a greater divide that I originally thought.

The "SC" is not used to having more than 5 upscale restaurants at any one time. Therefore they are all fighting over the limited number of qualified candidates to work in them. I feel there are many candidates at Wofford, Converse, USCU, SMC, etc. The problem is they may not want to work in this industry.

The location is important because people want an upscale atmosphere outside as well as inside. Charlotte has nothing to do with it. If you're trying to sell a location in a downtown area based on its proximity to downtown amenities like RWT did, then you have to be able to walk to those locations comfortably. Poor quality pedestrian conditions impact a restaurant in a downtown environment. To be successful downtown you have to put pedestrians first. RWT probably did everything right on the inside, but you have to factor in the outside too. Not just the facade of the building, but the whole street. Urban design is what its all about. Its the reason that the more successful restaurants have managed to stay open on the Square. Thats why I'm concerned about Braserie Ecosse.

[Sparkleman]

Spartan: 2 points here.

1) What exactly is the ideal location in downtown Spartanburg that you keep harping on? RWT was accessable from every direction whether you walked, biked, or drove. It was closer to the Marriot, CCC, Barnett Park, and the heart of town than any other restaurant downtown. The only place it wasn't closer to was Morgan Square and that was 1/4 of a mile away. If folks had a glass or two of wine at Carriage House wine and weren't willing to walk 3 blocks over to RWT and if every upscale restaurant has to be on the square, then we are screwed. We always park downtown in Greenville, go somewhere to have a drink or two (there is a tremendous variety over there), and then walk to dinner regardless of how many blocks away it is. Folks in the town need to get off their lazy a$$ and learn how to walk. All they do is beotch about not being able to park on the street near their favorite bar or restaurant.

2) Did you ever see the outside area at RWT? It was amazing! Partly sunny, partly shaded with ceiling fans and a trellis overhead. It also had a custom built waterfall in the back. You could dine or drink back there. I really can't think of a better outside dining/drinking area around. Gerhardt's is about as close as you can get, but its not downtown. Hell, Greenville may not have a place this nice outside. I think you're just blowing this place off because its not on the beloved square.

Finally, I think you need to spend a little more time in the "SC" before you critique us to death with all these "perfect" and "ideal" ideas that work so well everywhere else but not here. This is a quirky and sometimes strange town and always has been. If people do not support what is given to us by entrepreneurs, then nothing will change no matter how nice the sidewalks are or how nice the building across the street is.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Spartan
deleted quoted text

[Spartan]

One thing that I don't appreciate is your assumption that my living in Charlotte has somehow corrupted my view of what Spartanburg can be. Don't put words in my mouth and don't make assumptions you can't prove. I sincerely believe that Spartanburg has the capacity to be viewed as a great city by all who live and visit there if it applies itself correctly. Obviously I am an advocate for things that will improve the city, and I will critique anything I perceive to be a problem.

My point about RWT has nothing to do with public or private entities. This is simply my view of what I think are the problems with the RWT area. Our disconnect is that you're talking about the restaurant itself and its outdoor seating area whereas I am talking about everything that is outside of the restaurant. Its not just about about a location, its a bigger picture than that. The building itself looked great, but I'm talking about its surroundings, not their outdoor seating area. It was on Woodrow St- a side street that is flanked by some sketchy looking buildings, one of which I know to be vacant, the other I assume is vacant too. The parking lot was in a state of disrepair, and the fact that it is sunken below Dunbar Street gives the whole area an unusual vibe. Woodrow opens out onto a 5 lane road that feels like a highway right now, and sidewalk that does nothing to separate the pedestrian from traffic. Certainly not a pedestrian friendly vibe.

The point is that more of downtown needs to embrace what Main St and the Square have established in terms of being walkable and pedestrian friendly in order to create a quality urban environment that people will want to stay and enjoy. The fact is that if you build a downtown for a pedestrian, everything else will fall into place. Sidewalks play a role in it, but they are one part of many factors that make up a quality urban design (which was incidentally pioneered by a developer). Are there barriers to making this happen at the RWT location? Absolutely- but it doesn't change the fact that certain things will have tp happen to make this location successful.

I do agree that many people in Spartanburg don't always grasp the concept of walking to a building they can't park in front of (though they walk for miles inside of walmart.... go figure). Its fine with me though, since I always have a place to park just 2 blocks away from anywhere I want to go in downtown

[Sparkleman]

A lot of folks that have new ideas or concepts simply can't afford the prices for putting up their shops or restaurants on the square or on Main Street. I figure the guy chose the location for RWT since it had once been a restaurant, the price was right, and it was close to what he thought was going to be a booming arts scene. I for one figured more things would sprout up around him with him being an anchor. Papa's Breakfast Nook is around the corner as are a few other vacant buildings waiting to be transformed. Sure the parking lot was not sparkling but there is a deck over across on Church and if the place is good who has ever been turned off by a bad parking lot (Again the problem is with non walkers) ? People choose a location to open a business with price being the #1 consideration, at least I did with my business. They try to get the most for what they can afford. Prices down on the square, main st., and magnolia are out of sight. This is why there continue to be empty buildings all over. As much as I want downtown to prosper, I just don't get the feeling that there are enough folks like you and me and others that want it or will support it. Too many folks here are set in there ways and just willing to accept what is offered and has been offered forever. That is why as Roads-Scholar said in the following that "SC" originals like Ikes and Holmes work even though they do not follow what the blueprint for downtown is.

"However, look at Ike's. No retail synergy, mostly light traffic, and a crummy building. Yet, this establishment thrives and has developed an almost cult like following among its legions of patrons. Ike's has also generate some buzz from beyond Spartanburg. Can you believe it? People from Charlotte talking about Ike's in Spartanburg". Holmes in the Arcadia mill village rocks just like Ikes. It is open from 10-3 Monday through Friday and lunch is $6.20 for the hot dog plate. The place is swarmed at lunch with tons of business professionals from downtown.

[Spartan]

As much as I want downtown to prosper, I just don't get the feeling that there are enough folks like you and me and others that want it or will support it. Too many folks here are set in there ways and just willing to accept what is offered and has been offered forever.

Good points. Ike's is more of the exception that the rule though, don't you think? I don't know what it is, but somehow certain restaurants can be in random places and still be successful. I think it has to open at the right time and the right place, and probably some of it is just pure luck. Woodward's Cafe was another example of that until it burned. Ike's is now a tradition, so its not going anywhere. People don't like change, but I think they appreciate it when its good change. Everyone who grew up in Spartanburg will tell you that downtown has never looked as good as it does today.

I completely agree that price is a major issue. I've been told that the people who own the buildings on Main St have their spots over-priced and thats one of the reasons we don't see as many new restaurants as we would like. But with restaurants I'd think you would want to weigh price & location to get the best combination. Obviously the guy at RWT thought he had done that pretty well- and maybe he did. Maybe a new restaurant will move in and take off without looking back.

[Spartan]

I was thinking about this, and the new Urban Code document that City Council is supposedly going to vote on in the next few months should help to address some of the poor urban design issues that have plagued the city over the past few decades. I sincerely hope that they are passed in some form.

[Sparkleman]

A couple of things here since finally there is a little movement.

1) The old Longhorns building on the eastside has finally been sold. Does anyone know what is going here?

2) Has anyone ever been to PK's on Union St. over near Duncan Park? Its a meat and 3 and its been around about 4 years now.

3) Has anyone been to the Soul Food Lounge? Its also on Union but further down in the old Broncho's building.

These may or may not be significant but at least some empty buildings have been filled.

[spartanburgh]

The old Longhorn will become Bojangles.

[Spartan]

1) Wow a Bojangles? Great. At least Longhorn wasn't fast food. Any word if Longhorn is still interested in one of the Home Depot/ Easton Market outparcels?

2) Never heard of PK's, but I will be sure to try them out. I'm always on the lookout for a new Meat & 3... problem is that in Spartanburg, Wade's dominates that category.

3) The Soul Food Lounge doesn't sound very appealing to me and quite frankly its because of the trailer that they occupy. I only went to that Bronco's because the food was (and is) awesome. If i had not heard that reputation I probably would never have wanted to go there. Call me a snob or whatever, but I just like my restaurants to be stationary. I hope they do well though.

I'm all for reviews though, so if anyone has any review on any restaurant/bar/lounge/club/ etc in town, please post it

[hub-city]

PKs blows Wades out of the water!!! IMO It is very small and run by a little ol grandma and it is great true southern home cookin' The homemade deserts are to die for. I was a little scared the first time I pulled up, because the building is rather small and not very fancy, but I'm so glad I went. Try it out and let us know what you think.

[Spartan]

Good to know. Can anyone be more specific about its location? An address perhaps?

[Jael]

Good to know. Can anyone be more specific about its location? An address perhaps?

yellowpages.com says 1011 Union St which puts it at or near the corner of Union and Forest Ave.