Cartoon controversy

[Snowguy716]

With the huge controversy that has busted open across the world in the past few weeks over printed cartoons in Danish, Norwegian, and German newspapers depicting Muhammed as a terrorist, I want to see what your take is. Is it more important to respect others' religious beliefs, or does freedom of expression take first place?

[Snowguy716]

To be honest, the reaction across the muslim world has digusted me. These people are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, have set fire to their embassies and burned their consulate. They have called to prosecute the people responsible and have their heads cut off.

If they cannot respect the Wests' value of freedom of speech, then how can they expect us to respect their religion? I see shows and cartoons that depict Jesus in a negative light all the time. Jesus is a much more important figure to Christianity than Muhammed is to Islam, and you don't see the Christians across the world calling to chop peoples' heads off.

I realize there are a great number of peaceful, freedom of expression loving Muslims all over the world. I ask these Muslims to speak up and stop their brethren from what they're doing.

Freedom of expression forever!

[monsoon]

Not to mention it is a double standard. The Arab press are full of photos that insult Christians and Jews.

[dpbaker]

These people are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, have set fire to their embassies and burned their consulate.

I realize there are a great number of peaceful, freedom of expression loving Muslims all over the world. I ask these Muslims to speak up and stop their brethren from what they're doing.

And from what I understand, in Beirut, the protestors didn't even know which building housed the Danish embassy so they just attacked a multitude of buildings on the same street. When they did figure it out and set fire to it, some them themselves became trapped and had to be rescued. Brilliant.

And that is interesting; so rarely do you hear Muslims speaking up about this. Where were they on 9/11? Well, some were celebrating in the streets of the Palestinian territories, but I guess that is freedom of expression too. Where was the outrage when Theo VanGogh was dying, murdered in the streets of Holland? Should I keep going? I know there are some peaceful, freedom of expression loving Muslims in this world, in fact I know a few of them, but I do not think they exist in large numbers, and the majority of those that do exist are probably here in North America. But even here, they are largely silent.

I'm not trying to be inciteful, but maybe we should ask whether or not Islam in its natural form is compatible with Western ideals?

[Urban_Legend]

To be honest, the reaction across the muslim world has digusted me. These people are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, have set fire to their embassies and burned their consulate. They have called to prosecute the people responsible and have their heads cut off.

If they cannot respect the Wests' value of freedom of speech, then how can they expect us to respect their religion? I see shows and cartoons that depict Jesus in a negative light all the time. Jesus is a much more important figure to Christianity than Muhammed is to Islam, and you don't see the Christians across the world calling to chop peoples' heads off.

I realize there are a great number of peaceful, freedom of expression loving Muslims all over the world. I ask these Muslims to speak up and stop their brethren from what they're doing.

Freedom of expression forever!

Well said, I agree. It was a bit outrageous, and South Park has shown more offensive things of my Savior, lol.

[dpbaker]

Well said, I agree. It was a bit outrageous, and South Park has shown more offensive things of my Savior, lol.

Death to Terrance and Phillip....

[Ruso]

If they cannot respect the Wests' value of freedom of speech, then how can they expect us to respect their religion? I see shows and cartoons that depict Jesus in a negative light all the time. Jesus is a much more important figure to Christianity than Muhammed is to Islam, and you don't see the Christians across the world calling to chop peoples' heads off.

Freedom of expression forever!

Agreed. Freedom of expression forever!!!! Yet, just to clarify....Muhammed is the founder and creator of Islam, so it is not valid to claim that he is less important to islam, than Jesus to christianity.

I do not think they exist in large numbers, and the majority of those that do exist are probably here in North America. But even here, they are largely silent.

I'm not trying to be inciteful, but maybe we should ask whether or not Islam in its natural form is compatible with Western ideals?

Well, how do you know? Just go check certain data about the cosmovision of certain Middle Eastern countries, (where Iraq was included before), with Islam as their official religion, and you'll realize that there are some as open minded (legally, culturally) as some Western nations. Just to give you certain feetback, in Iran, after 9-11, one million people went out to the streets to comdemn the attaks. Of course, nobody in the States knows that because, you know, the media prefers to show the muslims as nothing but opressive, primitive, freedom of speech haters.

Anyways....I do think that these reactions are ridicule and terrible. Shows the lack of reasoning, or as Tomas More would put it, the terrible strength of the idiotic satirophobics, that prevails currently in the world....

[dpbaker]

Just to give you certain feetback, in Iran, after 9-11, one million people went out to the streets to comdemn the attaks. Of course, nobody in the States knows that because, you know, the media prefers to show the muslims as nothing but opressive, primitive, freedom of speech haters.

And how is it that you know that? Were you there? What is your source? Where were they here in the States? Did you see a "million" in streets of America? How about a thousan? Maybe there were, but I didn't catch it. Very few spoke out considering how many Muslims reside here in the U.S. There certainly were those that condemned 9/11, but I don't think it was quite to the level of the protests we are seeing over cartoons......

Oh, and I understand now that there is a contest apparently sponsored by the Iranian government for the best cartoon depicting the "Holocast". (Is that now an admission that it happened? Last I heard, there was some doubt....) What do the Jews or Israelis have to do with the cartoons anyway? I wonder if Ahmadinejad was among the million condeming 9/11 in Iran. The fact is, some of Islamic religious authority are using this as an excuse to incite and misdirect attention away from other issues and to further divide Islam from the West.

That's funny, I don't get that impression about Muslims from most media sources. Does the NY Times, LA Times, or SF Chronicle routinely portray Muslims as you state? Ah, you must be talking about FOX. Freedom of Speech Haters? Nah!! (O.k., well, we'll just overlook the folks in, where was it? London? that were carrying placards and chanting, "Freedom Go To Hell")

[Ruso]

And how is it that you know that? Were you there? What is your source? Where were they here in the States? Did you see a "million" in streets of America? How about a thousan? Maybe there were, but I didn't catch it. Very few spoke out considering how many Muslims reside here in the U.S. There certainly were those that condemned 9/11, but I don't think it was quite to the level of the protests we are seeing over cartoons......

Oh, and I understand now that there is a contest apparently sponsored by the Iranian government for the best cartoon depicting the "Holocast". (Is that now an admission that it happened? Last I heard, there was some doubt....) What do the Jews or Israelis have to do with the cartoons anyway? I wonder if Ahmadinejad was among the million condeming 9/11 in Iran. The fact is, some of Islamic religious authority are using this as an excuse to incite and misdirect attention away from other issues and to further divide Islam from the West.

That's funny, I don't get that impression about Muslims from most media sources. Does the NY Times, LA Times, or SF Chronicle routinely portray Muslims as you state? Ah, you must be talking about FOX. Freedom of Speech Haters? Nah!! (O.k., well, we'll just overlook the folks in, where was it? London? that were carrying placards and chanting, "Freedom Go To Hell")

My source? look in BBC News, there are plenty of documentaries about it. Or if not, look in other sources, besides NY Times, because believe it or not, not even they have the whole side of the story, because I assure you that not every muslim in the Middle East is half as "'evil"( wow, such as exploited word) as most westernes now depict them. Go check it out.

Now, please, I AM NOT DEFENDING THE PEOPLE IN THE PROTESTS. They were, are terrible, reproachable, laughable. However, I did have to clarify certain points.

Also, hopefully you did not bring he Holocaust cartoon argument to reply me, because I find that as regreatable(is this a word?) as you. I am just not to fund of generalizations. That is it....

Go Freedom!!Wuhuhuu,, ehem...

[dpbaker]

Ah, the BBC. Well, one could say they've got their own agendas as people say does FOX, and yada yada yada. I think you missed the point about the liberal rags like NY Times....And who here has called the Muslims evil? I thought is was we infidels that were evil? Yes, I know not every Muslim in the Middle East is anti-West, or radical, but a frightening number of them certainly seem to be ready to go off the deep end. I mean people are being shot now over what? FREAKIN' cartoons - there is something painfully wrong with that mentallity. Let's remember, it doesn't take a mob to create a disaster, just one nutball. Let's just say, there's no shortage....

And no, the Holocast cartoon thing was not aimed at you, that was just brought out into the general discussion.....

[Ruso]

Ah, the BBC. Well, one could say they've got their own agendas as people say does FOX, and yada yada yada. I think you missed the point about the liberal rags like NY Times....And who here has called the Muslims evil? I thought is was we infidels that were evil? Yes, I know not every Muslim in the Middle East is anti-West, or radical, but a frightening number of them certainly seem to be ready to go off the deep end. I mean people are being shot now over what? FREAKIN' cartoons - there is something painfully wrong with that mentallity. Let's remember, it doesn't take a mob to create a disaster, just one nutball. Let's just say, there's no shortage....

And no, the Holocast cartoon thing was not aimed at you, that was just brought out into the general discussion.....

Yes, believe me, I know. A few months ago we published a satiric newspaper around here, and it was incredible how many people got offended by simple jokes. In this case, it is frightening to see how radical and fundamentalistic are these people.

Also, I have to correct myself, it was not Iran, it was Saudi Arabia....

[Snowguy716]

The way I was told by a Muslim (though she was from Bosnia.. so maybe she isn't Muslim enough in some peoples' books) was that in Islam, the Quran is like our Jesus and that our Bible is like Mohammed. Of course they are both sacred parts of the faith, but I can gaurantee you that this outcry is mild compared to what would happen, if, say... someone were to publicly light a Quran on fire.

It could be said, however, that because many Christians are non-practicing, that neither part is as important as they are in Islam. But I thought it was a fair comparison.

[RiverwoodCLT]

If you are caught in Saudi Arabia with a bible, they will take it away from you and burn it. If you are a Saudi citizen, you can not be a christian or have a bible, doing so means death.

What would happen, if in the USA you could not be a Muslim, and all Qurans would be burn?

[GRDadof3]

Freedom of expression, for sure!! Watching the protests on TV reminded me more of an extremist cult or fanatical dictatorship than a peaceful religion. I'm sorry, but I have never seen in my lifetime Christian, Jews, Buddhists or any other religious group revolt like that. Oh wait, there was that time that the artist Mapplethorpe had photos of rosaries and crucifixes dunked in urine. I have never seen such seething rage and fury erupt throughout the streets

[IgKh]

Not to mention it is a double standard. The Arab press are full of photos that insult Christians and Jews.

Double standard is exactly the phrase. Also, the Iranians seem to have a hard time deciding if they deny the mere existence of the Holocaust or publish cartoons of Anne Frank in bed with Hitler to bash the Israelis and Europeans.

[Urban_Legend]

I have a question.

We've seen in this thread the terrible problems facing the global community with regards to the great divides in Western and Middle-Eastern culture.

My question is, what can be done about it? One sees so much hatred and prejudice and feels helpless in this situation. Not to sound all hippie-like, but will it ever be possible for this jumble of civilization to come together? What can we do to alleviate these problems?

[GRDadof3]

I have a question.

We've seen in this thread the terrible problems facing the global community with regards to the great divides in Western and Middle-Eastern culture.

My question is, what can be done about it? One sees so much hatred and prejudice and feels helpless in this situation. Not to sound all hippie-like, but will it ever be possible for this jumble of civilization to come together? What can we do to alleviate these problems?

You don't sound hippie like UrbanLegend. I agree. I feel that if these issues are left alone, they will be left to future generations to deal with (my children), and they will be much worse. The main thing that drives fanaticism is lack of hope. Somehow hope has to be restored to many people in the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Indo-China/China regions that a better life exists outside of oppressive regimes and communist/fascist governments.

Just look at the front page of USA Today today about the Chinese being told not to "spit so much in public" and be so rude leading up to the 2008 Olympics. WTF?!

[dpbaker]

The way I was told by a Muslim (though she was from Bosnia.. so maybe she isn't Muslim enough in some peoples' books) was that in Islam, the Quran is like our Jesus and that our Bible is like Mohammed. Of course they are both sacred parts of the faith, but I can gaurantee you that this outcry is mild compared to what would happen, if, say... someone were to publicly light a Quran on fire.

The difference too is that Mohamed was a warlord with a violent history, Jesus was not. I doubt that Mohamed would have frowned upon 9/11......

Though many wrongs have been commited in the name of Chrisitanity, it does not embrace nor teach such concepts as Al-Taqiyah...

[Charlotteman]

Here is my take: "We are pissed because you published cartoons of our diety wearing a bomb, so we are going to bomb you"

As much as all of us respect freedom of religion, and I'm almost certain all peple here on this thread do:), we would never tolerate a religion being attacked by any arm of the US government.

But that aside, the obvious truth has to be brought out in the open; it has to be spoken in public. In general I must agree with dpbaker. Islam itself is an intolerant, zealous, fanatical religion. Its adherents chop off peoples' heads if they claim to be atheist. They hate the West, and horrible words can be read in all the Middle Eastern newspapers. Inciteful? Seems that way to me.

Islam has practically declared war on the West. When we are proclaimed to be an enemy, we had better take it seriously. Pretending like it is "just an extremist faction of Islam", so that a certain political correctness stays in place, is a sure fire way to let down our guard and be massacered.

I do not wish to offend anyone, or attack their religion, but Islam is unfortunately the bedrock in which the terrorists take their cue.

[dpbaker]

And I hate to further add fuel to the fire, but it seems like historty may be on course to at least attempt to repeat itself; will Islam once again attempt to conquer the West? If so, it is much more positioned throughout the world to do so. Unfortunately, even if the majority of Muslims are good, it only takes one nutjob with a bomb to really muck up the works. Of course we know there's more than just one nutjob.....we could be on the verge of somthing very serious here.....