Moore Square East apartment project

[bdp]

http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/396899.html

some good news to start the week...

[Transplant]

This is fantastic news for DT. Hopefully, this gets the ball rolling even faster! It will take a few years, but momentum like this should lead to the variety of shops and stores that make downtowns sustainable.

Its only a matter of time before we're hearing about Belks returning DT.

[Jones_]

This is not a run down block by any means. Two of the houses are large victorian houses and about 6 in all are original one story victorian or colonial revival homes exactly like those in Oakwood. To some people this block is the southern most fringe of Oakwood. As long as those houses get moved to fill in the gaps on other nearby blocks I guess I am cool with it...the design will also hopefully be urban in nature and not 'garden' apartments or some other suburban design set downtown.

[bdp]

I was kind of concerned about the design too... i hope it is a four story structure, not a cluster of four story suburban apartment buildings... from the article, it seems like the houses will be moved, which is cool. hoefully they will fill in some vacant lots.

[sax184]

I was kind of concerned about the design too... i hope it is a four story structure, not a cluster of four story suburban apartment buildings... from the article, it seems like the houses will be moved, which is cool. hoefully they will fill in some vacant lots.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is great news, but let's hope that we get a development that respects the street, not a suburban pod. And while 4-story buildings are great, in this portion of Raleigh, would 5-6 stories be appropriate?

[bdp]

^^ yeah 5 or 6 stories would be great... but the article indicates it will be 4...

[orulz]

What happened to Carlton Place a couple blocks south of there? Is that under construction yet? It is supposed to be a 3-story apartment / retail complex on the empty lot between Davie / Cabarrus / East / Bloodworth.

[Transplant]

I would guess that at 4 stories, the developer is trying to build the building(s) out of wood. I'm not sure how high one could go without steel, but 5 or 6 stories might be too much.

Just a guess to the high limit...... if he could build it to 6 stories though, that would be great!

[ncwebguy]

I live down Hargett from this block and have been waiting for something like this to happen there for a while... There's only *one* two story house worth saving on this block -- the one at the southeast corner of Hargett and Bloodworth. It is only used as offices, and not a residence, so it's dead at nights and on weekends. Every other two story house there is new construction (built within the last 4 years) built by Mr. Smith. They were supposed to house staff at Exploris and its middle school, but instead they've been rentals, with several of them sitting empty for months at a time. Most of the one story houses were moved on to that block from the block directly west of it, to make room for the Middle School's parking lot. I thought it was a mistake then to build new houses there instead of a multifamily structure close to downtown, and the older houses should have been moved to fill other holes a few blocks east. This may happen now.

In the top of the picture with the story, you can see the three story Wintershaven, an old retirement apartment complex wrapped around a parking lot. I hope the designers are *not* inspired by that and build at least five or six stories, if not higher. It is within the Downtown Overlay District, so the land should have more flexibility as far as height, parking, etc. are concerned, and there is three stories on the block east of here. But four stories equals wood, a la Person Pointe. I *don't* want to see a "double person point" on this block, and don't think you could get 170 units in here if that was the case.

I would love to see brownstone walkups front most of the block, with lobbies to catch elevators up to the upper floors above them mid block. All this hiding a parking deck on half the inside, topped with a grassy area on the deck's "roof". Ground floor retail would be cool, at least on the corners that look toward downtown. A coffee shop, gallery, copy shop/printer/imaging, or a small grocer/co-op would be ideal, but may be wishful thinking. I hope it's built so that even though these don't seem feasble now, they could be incorporated later with little effort.

On the surrounding blocks, City Cemetary is northeast, so nothing is going to be built there, and it is open, green space. The federal government owns the sea of asphalt to the block's north and northwest. The west block is grassy area, parking for the magnet middle school, and the back side of Raleigh Rescue Mission. I think Mr. Smith owns this land as well, so if this project does well, more construction could come to that block too. Southwest is the middle school, south and southeast are houses, most built with HUD and Community Development Block Grant funds. On the due east block there is Wintershaven and Winter's place, a mix of office space and apartments with a common parking lot. Moore Square is two blocks due west of this one.

The city has broken ground on Carlton place, which is two blocks due south of this block. Houses, a church, and designbox are on the block in between. A missed zoning change had to be approved, but the earthmovers are out there now. It will have 5,000 sq ft of ground floor retail/office/whatever.

I *don't* want this project to form a "wall" between downtown and the neighborhood just to the east, but to serve as a gateway that continues the urban feel eastward.

If anyone wants a walking tour of the area, I'd be happy to show it. It's not much now, but will be drastically different in the upcoming years.

[pack-man]

I would imagine these will be similar to the apartments along Davie Street near City Market.

[citiboi27610]

Great news.

I was thinking about the need for apartment downtown just today. With the rising costs of construction and land downtown, in what ways can developers build more affordable housing for 'average' people or college students? Downtown should be diverse, and the only way to make that happen is to have a diverse housing market along with accompaning development.

[ChiefJoJo]

To keep costs low, they can do as Mr. Smith is doing and build low-rise (4 and fewer stories), using cheaper materials such as lumber construction instead of concrete and steel. Also, I think mixing uses really can give a developer a lot of flexibility, even in a taller building, as it diversifies the financial investment among multiple tenants, retail, office, residential, etc. Also, I wonder if trying to partner with the city on subsidizing parking for a building could work? Say, if a bldg was built near a city-owned deck, maybe the city would subsidize a certain number of spaces at lower than market rate for tenants, thereby reducing the need for an expensive structure.

[plus2]

Great news.

I was thinking about the need for apartment downtown just today. With the rising costs of construction and land downtown, in what ways can developers build more affordable housing for 'average' people or college students? Downtown should be diverse, and the only way to make that happen is to have a diverse housing market along with accompaning development.

I totally agree with you. But I think with construction costs, the best way to achieve affordability is through exsiting structures- which don't really exist downtown. The economics of building a nice new building on expensive downtown land requires the prices be in the unnaffordable range. I wish someone could subsidize the building costs of a few large (highrise or not) apartment buildings. This would be a good way for the city/state to invest.

[Jones_]

I totally agree with you. But I think with construction costs, the best way to achieve affordability is through exsiting structures- which don't really exist downtown. The economics of building a nice new building on expensive downtown land requires the prices be in the unnaffordable range. I wish someone could subsidize the building costs of a few large (highrise or not) apartment buildings. This would be a good way for the city/state to invest.

There are several rehab/conversion projects that I believe would work on this premise. The mid-rise office structures that date from the '20's and '30's all need alot of plumbing and electrical work done but as an example, Empire recently bought the Professional building for around 750,000 dollars, it is 8 stories tall. 2.5M of upfit costs, which I think is conservative, brings the total cost to 3.25 M. 7 of the floors could have condos for 21 total bringing the total cost to around 150k each.

[plus2]

There are several rehab/conversion projects that I believe would work on this premise. The mid-rise office structures that date from the '20's and '30's all need alot of plumbing and electrical work done but as an example, Empire recently bought the Professional building for around 750,000 dollars, it is 8 stories tall. 2.5M of upfit costs, which I think is conservative, brings the total cost to 3.25 M. 7 of the floors could have condos for 21 total bringing the total cost to around 150k each.

That 150,000 figure would be without profits for the developer though. So depending on markup- maybe twice as much?

[Jones_]

That 150,000 figure would be without profits for the developer though. So depending on markup- maybe twice as much?

Depending on how it is financed and the construction time frame realtors take their 6% and the developer (and investors) can take whatever works for them...I am guessing for a smallish project like this couple hundred thousand or so or a set percantage markup at around 12% or so.....my rehab estimate was meant to account for engineering, construction, contingencies, development "fees" and investors profit. I am not a construction estimator by any means but have tried to glean some ballpark estimates from state government contracts and I live in a rehab project that I have some idea what it took to do. I am thinking it could be kept between 160-180 a square foot because, at least the Commercial building sale, represented almost entirely land value. Throw in some tax credits for historic status and the prices could become quite affordable. Nobody is getting rich off of class B office space rates so I am hopeful Empire or the Pilot Mill folks might take the plunge on some of these spaces.

Edit.

Got my buildings confused for a sec...Odd Fellows (Est Est Est) is 10 stories, they paid 1.65M for it and total footage is 50,000. Add say 4M rehab costs and for 9 stories residential the numbers are about the same....true a greedy developer could jack the costs to 300 a foot but with this concrete and steel already in place stuff for people making 40,000 a year could still be had in downtown proper. The Hudson prices are around 220k a foot and the land price was almost identical with a lot more structural modificaton that took place and a developer that has been the news in a negative way.

[ncwebguy]

After thinking about this some more, 170 units in four stories seems a bit on the high side.

There would be no room for ground floor retail, apartments, etc., which is unfortunate.

Why not have a laundrymat that could be used by residents and the neighborhood? The Rex senior center isn't that far away, yet there is no support services other than the Fayetville Street CVS.

I don't mind cheap, as long as it isn't a bland project like Melrose place and the other aparement complexes along Tryon shoehorned into a downtown block. There is plenty of curb space for parking, especially by the cemetary, but I don't know if it is enough for 170 units. Though the same could be said about the apartments by St. Mary's.... Catching the free TTA bus from Moore square to hillsborough street would be a good selling point to students, especially students of the downtown design studio.

[urbanesq]

After thinking about this some more, 170 units in four stories seems a bit on the high side.

There would be no room for ground floor retail, apartments, etc., which is unfortunate.

Why not have a laundrymat that could be used by residents and the neighborhood? The Rex senior center isn't that far away, yet there is no support services other than the Fayetville Street CVS.

I don't mind cheap, as long as it isn't a bland project like Melrose place and the other aparement complexes along Tryon shoehorned into a downtown block. There is plenty of curb space for parking, especially by the cemetary, but I don't know if it is enough for 170 units. Though the same could be said about the apartments by St. Mary's.... Catching the free TTA bus from Moore square to hillsborough street would be a good selling point to students, especially students of the downtown design studio.

I think it all depends on the footprint of the lot and the layout of the units. I've seen some Post Properties projects (one in the State Thomas neighborhood in Dallas comes to mind) which were 4 stories with some ground-level retail. They were built dense around really nice courtyards, and had around 200 units on a tract that was less than an acre in size. They also had a waiting list about 3 years long.

In other words, if the design is right, it can be done, and done well.

[ChiefJoJo]

I wonder what's going on with this development.

[pack-man]

so far everything looks untouched over there.

[ncwebguy]

Since February, the two one story houses (one on Hargett, one on Bloodworth) next door to the two story house on the southeast corner of Hargett and Bloodworth have been torn down.

Gordon Smith was looking to purchase empty lots in the neighborhood from the city to move some of the other houses on this block to, but was unsuccessful. There are still plenty of lots to move the houses to, but not owned/sold by the city.

I don't know if there has been an official project submitted to the planning commission for review yet. Hargett and Martin are now both two way streets on the north and south sides of this block, and traffic lights at Hargett/East, Hargett/Bloodworth, and Martin/East have been replaced with four-way stop signs.

Carlton Place is coming along, with a lot of the exterior siding up. It will probalby be ready for residents at the end of the year/early 2007.

[yoga]

I don't know if there has been an official project submitted to the planning commission for review yet. Hargett and Martin are now both two way streets on the north and south sides of this block, and traffic lights at Hargett/East, Hargett/Bloodworth, and Martin/East have been replaced with four-way stop signs.

I don't know if it is good or bad, but I'm glad those lights are gone.

[ChiefJoJo]

ncwebguy, have you heard anything new about this project? (since you live nearby) I don't think anything has been submitted to the city yet. The timing would be great for some reasonable apartments.

[ncwebguy]

Nothing lately. I know The Wood Pile LLC, which owns a lot of the land in the apartment block, have bought a few lots to the east. Their holdings can be seen here: Wood Pile LLC via Wake County Real Estate Data

The "apartment block" is bound by the 400 blocks of East Hargett and Martin and the 200 blocks of South Bloodworth and East street. Anything outside of that are potential lots to move those houses to.

This includes:

- 610 East Hargett bought 8/16/2006 for $45,00

- 818 East Martin bought 8/15/2006 for $52,500

- 309 South Swain bought 7/13/2006 for $28,500

- 513 S Bloodworth bought 12/6/2005 for $25,000

and other properties bought earlier. No houses have been moved, but two were torn down as posted earlier in this thread.

The land is in the Central CAC, although plans for Carlton Place, two blocks due south, also came through the South Central CAC so this might too.

[urbanesq]

^^ who are the players in that entity?