Moore Square East apartment project

[ncwebguy]

That one house has been sitting by itself since the big move a month ago. I wouldn't expect to see it move till they poke holes in the foundation to jack the house up.

They have finished the foundations of some of the moved houses (at least on Hargett and Swain). But I too hope there was some planning for the apartment complex done *before* the last property was acquired and the houses moved.

Townhouse apartments and the senior living building are going up on the old/new Chavis Heights land, but the first units are a few months from coming on line I think. But the more info about this project being public, the better.

[ChiefJoJo]

Gordon Smith, developer of this block, is taking time to listen to neighbor's concerns about his proposed development. He's addressed the South-Central CAC trying to solicit input on the project. Also of note, to achieve the necessary density on this block, he would need to extend the DOD zoning to the parcel, which allows developments increased density with performance bonuses.

I think conferring with neighbors is always a good thing. Sometimes good ideas can come out of these types of meetings. Maybe he'll take the input and allow for some affordable units (the DOD has bonuses for this), maybe he's add retail on the ground floor (I hope)... I think both would be positive for the area. What I don't want is for the neighborhood to try to scale back the density of the development on this transition block.

This project is similar is size and scope to the Tucker St project adjoining Cameron Park--both will add significant density to transitional areas adjoining downtown, both about the same density, height, etc. Unlike Crosland at Tucker, I think it will be important for Smith to listen to the concerns and also for the neighborhood to learn about how this can be an asset for the neighborhood, not detract from it.

[ncwebguy]

I know the N&O's story made it seem like Mr. Smith has addressed the South Central CAC but he has not. I thought he might have shown up at last night's meeting, but he did not.

Maybe he has talked to Mr. Coleman, but not the full CAC. By not inviting Mr. Smith to the CAC or even talking about the project, Mr. Coleman acts as if he is the CAC.

His push to buy the Stone warehouse buildings seems like it. He sought (and received) support from the group to circumvent the city's traditional bidding process. He claimed that having to compete with other developers would ensure development dollars would go outside the community. He failed to mention that he doesn't plan on paying for the building for five years. Also, the CAC voted down a similar proposal from another developer to purchase city-owned land in the Martin-Haywood area. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

This lot is across Martin from a few houses, but there are three story buildings (Winters Place, Winterhaven) further from downtown than the property. It should be at least a story taller, if not more. The downtown overlay district included this property until the lines were redrawn a year or so ago. I personally think the DOD should extend to East Street to better tie into the established neighborhood, but the powers that be want to see it end at Person or Blount Street.

There are no limits on affordable housing for Wintersplace, yet there should be for this project? With Carlton Place two blocks to the south and the new Chavis Heights a few blocks beyond that, in addition to the units already in place in Eastwood Court a couple of blocks to the southwest and other Raleigh Housing Authority property a few blocks further down East Martin Street.

[ChiefJoJo]

Item on tomorrow's city council agenda:

4. Gordon Smith and Mack Paul, representing The Wood Pile, LLC, would like to request City Council approval to submit to the City Planning Department in December 2007 a request for rezoning property located between East Martin Street and East Hargett Street, and South Bloodworth Street and South East Street. They would request this property be included in the Downtown Overlay District as it is one block from Moore Square and four blocks from Fayetteville Street.

The first step towards moving this project forward... increasing the density allowance. I'm sure the neighborhood has concerns over density nearby, but if there's ever going to be reasonably affordable housing and effective street retail over there, it's got to be done with density. I see this as being similar to 712 Tucker in that they are both in a transitional area between "downtown" and single family R-6 (6 units per acre) homes nearby. I don't think 4-5 stories is unreasonable in an area like this.

[Jones_]

Yeah, this project will be important for retail over there. I really like how the houses look that were moved too. All in all the combined blocks east of Moore Square are looking better. I wonder what Gordons target rent is....hopefully that niche 700-1000/month that is so underserved downtown.

[reed]

More opposition to this project. I laughed at the "rich and famous" comment, but I do see both sides of this argument.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/866804.html

[DPK]

Looks like this project has grown another floor at six stories.

[RaleighRob]

More opposition to this project. I laughed at the "rich and famous" comment, but I do see both sides of this argument.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/866804.html

[ChiefJoJo]

The DOD code offers density bonuses of (I think) an extra 40 units/acre with a certain % of affordable units. Now that is just one of several bonuses (open space, transit access, etc) in the code, but given the sensitivity of this project, it would be a great step for Smith to offer up that carrot if the city grants the rezoning. In the past, developers would almost never need to do such a thing as the votes for a development were almost always in the bag, but with this current council, I would expect some members to be much more sensitive to the neighbors concerns.

Logically, with it's location and a clean slate to work with, I think expanding the DOD over there makes too much sense not to do it, but on the other hand, there are legitimate issues with gentrification going on in the transitional areas of DT/SE Raleigh. Smith essentially can't do the project without the rezoning approval, and the neighbors want to know their concerns are being heard. Of course, the CAC, Rainey, etc, probably will never be 100% satisfied unless all units are affordable, but that's completely unrealistic. The best win-win scenario IMO would be for the West, Meeker, etc to broker a deal with Smith that produces a significant number (20%?) of affordable units in exchange for the rezoning and the increased density.

This will be an interesting litmus test for the new council, which has maintained public positions both on quality density *and* also listening to neighborhood concerns.

[ncwebguy]

The Downtown Overlay District used to incorporate this block and the next two blocks to its east. The closest I could find to an official DOD map is this one that shows the block in question as a "council site plan apporval" area. This has nothing to do with "expanding" the DOD and everything to do with restoring it to where it was when Woodpile/Gordon Smith started acquiring the property.

The west side symetric equivalent of this block, bounded by Hargett, West, Martin, and Harrington, is in the DOD. I know the warehouse district area is different, but if the land stays at the current R-10 zoning, the 20 units allowed will be exclusive, expensive houses and/or townhouses. I want to know where "new homes are starting to sprout up at $600,000" in the area. Maybe in Oakwood and Pilot Mill, but not anywhere near this block.

The problem is people like Lynette refuse to see the correlation between downtown and the eastside neighborhoods. They complain that there are billions of dollars invested in downtown but "nothing" has been invested on the east side, ignore the millions of dollars invested in rebuilding Chavis Heights. They continue to live in a timewarp where $100,000 for a single family detached house a few blocks from Fayetville Street is not a good idea as that is not "affordable" to someone making minimum wage.

They will not approve of anything other than the imaginary $60-70k Octavia bungalos. If 20 of them were squeezed into the block, and the land cost $1 million to acquire and prepare, at $70k each, the houses would have to cost $20k each to construct to break *even* for the project.

20 houses x $70,000 = $1.4 million - $1 million for land = $400,000/20 homes = $20,000 per home.

The neighborhood activist adversity to anything above below-market rates creates an environment where no one with the necessary capital wants to invest because land prices alone make buiding what "the community" demands impossible.

With Carlton Place and Chavis Heights, there is now a belief that the city should subsidize the entire east side. There is movement to allow only habitat for humanity to build homes on city owned land, and with this block plan to destroy any hope of bridging the gap from downtown to the east side.

It is ironic that Mrs. Williams and Mrs. Rainey's "my way or the highway" policy has created the sharp haves and have nots between downtown and the neighborhoods to the east.

[Jones_]

I think Gordon Smith deserves some sort of consideration for preserving all those houses (granted three were demolished) and infilling them back into the neighborhood.

[askmisterbrown]

Very good points, ncwebguy. I expect not all residents on the east side of downtown want to limit that area to subsidized housing or public housing. I expect that quite a few of them would welcome a mix of incomes.

There is no possibility in the near future of the area being only upper income or even only upper and middle income. As you point out, there is already quite a bit of public or subsidized housing.

The whole idea that the downtown is squeezing out the poor is a bit of a myth. Yes, the area within two blocks of Fayetteville St. will be too expensive for the poor. But within a mile of Fayetteville St. is still the highest concentration of poor folks in Wake County, by far. This includes Walnut Terrace, Heritage Park, Capital Park, Chavis Heights, the new Carlton Place, the old neigborhoods of Idlewild, South Park, much of Caraleigh, and the neighborhoods to the east of downtown, where there are a number of smaller developments of public and subsidized housing.

There will be more and more upper and middle income people coming into this area, but most of the poor will not leave. It will be a mix of incomes, which is a good thing for everybody. It will make for a healthy and lively downtown. It is in nobody's interest, really, to restrict large swaths of central Raleigh to certain income levels.

[ncwebguy]

As you posted in the SE Raleigh thread, there are no healthy, urban, exclusively lower income neighborhoods. This project has the chance to keep the neighbohood from sliding into that territory.

I think making the smaller, less desirable 25% of the units affordable is a compromise that is win-win for everyone involved, but "community leaders" have been on record saying that isn't enough because the "rich and famous" 75% will somehow run everyone else out of the area, despite the large amout of Raleigh Housing Authority-owned housing stock. There is an almost "capital J" of public, affordable housing starting at Heritage Park/Gateway, though Caraleigh, to the projects bound by South Fayetville, Wilmington, and MLK, to Walnut Terrace to Chavis Heights/Carlton Place/complexes on Davie Camden, east of Oakwood, and to Capitol Park. Habitat has already built several houses in the area as well, on/near Jones and Martin Streets.

A lot of the poor folks who live nearby aren't there by choice but by circumstance. There are a lot of people who pay a lot to rent a room in an under the table rooming house because they do not have good enough credit to rent an apartment and/or can't save enough for a deposit. "Neighborhood leaders" want to build them Habitat for Humanity houses, which is an admirable goal but paying the (low) mortgage is only one piece of home ownership. I would like to see developments like Carlton Place *and* this -- with the city and the Downtown Housing Improvment Corporation owning some buildings and the private sector offering some units in their buildings.

Density can be increased in the area by having occupants in the *existing* housing stock, though some of it needs a lot of work to come up to code. And there are a lot of empty lots that can suppport single and multi-family structures. The houses moved to the block west of Carlton Place look ok, but are not ready for residents yet.

I hope the April public meeting, and whenever Martin-Haywood is looked at again, the pro-mixed income voices are heard.

[Transplant]

More and more complexs will be built like the current proposal. In 10 years, this will be on the small side.

Land is relatively cheap so look for developers to start snapping up land.

[ChiefJoJo]

I hope the April public meeting, and whenever Martin-Haywood is looked at again, the pro-mixed income voices are heard.

[ncwebguy]

From the last line of the recent N&O story covering the January 08 Central CAC meeting:

Smith said a public hearing on the project is set for April.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here is the rezoning case info for the Woodpile block owned by Gordon Smith. I believe the public hearing is on April 15.

[Francesca]

As a heads-up for those interested and/or affected by this proposed project, Gordon Smith will be presenting to the Central CAC tonight at 7pm at the Top Greene Center on MLK. Following his presentation, the CAC will be voting on whether or not they approve of his rezoning request.

According to what he has recently discussed with residents, Smith's proposal is now for a 4-story apartment complex, approx. 220-230 units, which is considerably less was originally requested as part of his rezoning application filed with the Planning Department, which could have had as many as 608 units. The Planning Department was less than impressed with his original proposal, and found that it was inconsistent with the Downtown Small Area Plan in the areas of negative impact upon the immediate area's character and height incompatibility, not pedestrian-friendly, pressure on overcrowded schools, public spaces and natural resoures, etc.

Now, he has reduced the project scope, and plans to move forward with a live/work configuration along Martin Street, in addition to the apartment units, and a commercial space which will front both Martin and Bloodworth Streets with a clause stipulating that there will be a 24-month period to lease the space, or else it will revert back to a use at his discretion (more aparment live/work units).

Just an update for those not in the most recent loop.

[ncwebguy]

I was looking for this thread in the archives only to find it on the top page!

The N&O has a story in today's paper with the old plan -- almost 700 units, more than 150 new students in Wake County schools, etc. -- not the one in Francesca's post. It also puts the apartments in "South East Raleigh" and not downtown, even though it is west of East street, the original border of the city.

It is the perfect place for a Downtown Transition District, a ring/buffer around the current downtown overlay district to "step down" into nearby neighborhoods -- South Park, Downtown East, Oakwood, Peace/Seaboard, Glenwood-Brooklyn, the neighborhood between Broughton and St. Mary's, and Boyland Heights.

The city's rezoning case files for case Z-019-08 are here.

I hope the planning department is happy with the current proposal, though their previous concerns are odd:

- "areas of negative impact upon the immediate area's character and height incompatibility" -- umm, the "immediate area's character" is a mix of grass (due west and City Cemetary to the northeast) and surface parking, with single family homes to the south. The new four story configuration is in line with the three story Wintershaven and Wintersplace to the east and Carlton Place two blocks south. Being compatible with the height of the cemetary and surface parking is difficult, to say the least.

- "not pedestrian-friendly" - how does adding apartments close to the city core, which would attract *pedestrians*, as opposed to drivers, not be pedestrian friendly? Wow. Are parking lots more pedestrian friendly?

- "pressure on overcrowded schools, public spaces and natural resoures, etc." - How is this anything other than a thinly disguised ban on all new development South and East of downtown? It is ok for other parts of the city and county to put pressure on overcrowded schools, etc. but heaven forbid southeast Raleigh add one more student to the system? Amazing. There are underutilized pubic spaces within a few blocks of this development -- Moore Square to the east and the Chavis Greenway/Chavis park to the south/southeast. To say nothing of Capitol Square, Fayetville Street,and City Square, the last of which is where the city is encouraging *more* users, not fewer.

Adding live/work units would attract jobs to an area that is desperate for work. Those spaces could create a "creative class" district east of downtown in conjunction with the former designbox space on Bloodworth behind the Moore Square Magnet Middle School and the office/retail space in Carlton Place.

The Old East Raleigh plan, which called for a transition from downtown to the single family homes in this corridor, appears to have been completely ignored by the planning department.

EDIT: I hate that I live a few blocks down Hargett from the sit and have been left completely out of the loop! I'm going to try to make the Central CAC meeting and/or the Planning Commission meeting to suppor the updated proposal.

[ncwebguy]

The N&O reports the devleopment was approved by the Central CAC by a 30-2 vote. I didn't go because of home issues, and knew I could only speak but not vote as I don't live or own property in the CAC's boundaries. The city council public hearing is still scheduled for the 15th.

The story mentions the scaled down four stories, but says there could be up to 600 units. I don't see how they can squeeze 150 units per floor shy of dorms with common areas. There will be a lot of one bedroom units, which should be more affordable and encourage more "urban" socialization in parks/bars/restaurants/coffee shops/etc. vs. staying at home. I don't see there being too many families with kids living in one bedroom units, either, which should lessen the impact on the school system. It would be ideal for younger teachers at the Moore Square Magnet Middle and Exploris Middle Schools, if there are units in their price range.

I somewhat take offense to the "civilization coming back east" comment. Civilization has always been in the neighborhood, but it has been weakened lately. The apartments will bring a lot of "new blood" to the neighborhood, which will hopefully respect and help their neighbors.

[ChiefJoJo]

In this WRAL video, you can see a brief shot of the rendering, and as well as some comments from the CAC chair. I believe there will be retail on Martin St frontage, but it's hard to tell for sure from that video. I think the kind of density proposed (100+ units/acre) could support some level of retail over there, and maybe spur some more redevelopment on the east side. I still wonder about affordability, when all indications are that these will be market rate only, while it seems like this would be the perfect project for Smith to utililze affordable density credits (+40 units/acre extra IIRC) the city offers to developers. Maybe one day, someone will use them.

I am a little surprised the CAC voted in favor so overwhelmingly, but they probably recognize that this can only help revitalize the east side, block by block. With the block being all but cleared out, and the homes moved elsewhere in the neighborhood (instead of torn down), it's very hard to argue that Smith hasn't proceeded with anything but the neighborhood's best interest in mind. There is also no displacement of historic structures--a big plus. The CAC chair mentioned that they had concerns but did not want to be an obstacle for progress. I think with his involvement in the community over the years (Longview Center, Marbles, moving homes on the block) Smith has probably bought himself some goodwill that other 'get-rich-quick' developers would not have. Clearly, like Hatem and Empire, he has a stake in the community's well-being. Looks like this will be a shoe-in for approval.

[Jones_]

The houses he moved looked really good where they ended up. Wonder when they will be put up for sale. "Market Rate" is pretty ambiguous...that could mean 800 bucks for a two bedroom or it could mean 1400....I am guessing 1000 and 700 for a one-bedroom but some ballpark idea from Gordon would be nice.

[miamiblue]

I need to take a tour to see where all those houses ended up. I am wondering what is going on with them now that they have been moved. Wood Pile does not appear to have ownership of most of them anymore according to the Wake County website, unless it is wrong, as some of the info has not been fully merged between the moved houses and the lots they were moved to. They seem to be listed with "<Insert Address> LLC" as the owner for each, and I'm not really sure what that means.

Good point, Jones, about the meaning of "Market Rate". What is the market rate for newer apartment units in this area? It would be really nice to see the affordable density incentive finally be employed here, but I am not completely optimistic on that.

[RaleighRob]

Good point, Jones, about the meaning of "Market Rate". What is the market rate for newer apartment units in this area?

[miamiblue]

As a recent apartment hunter, from what I could see, in downtown there isn't hardly any newer (ie, less than 20 years old) 2-bedroom rentals less than an even thousand...unless you count the subsidized places like Carlton Place, Gateway Park, etc. Renovated historic structures, yes...Cameron Court, Boylan Apts, etc. But not for anything newer & modern.