Hudson's Block

[wolverine]

There is no need for a public square at this location, let alone a plaza of any sort. In most locations Detroit has failed to provide successful alternative green spaces and plazas for public intereaction - and we have lots of them. Hart Plaza and Campus Martius are the only two that are doing really well, while the rest of the parks sit empty. In most cases where parks are over abundant, there is a waste in valuable real estate. And in a private situation, they are getting taxed for a useless space. I don't think this plaza would be as succesful as you imagine. Look at any great city, and they don't have nearly as many parks/square mile as Detroit has. We have Campus Martius, and an empty Grand Circus Park on both ends. The thought of a city such as Detroit wanting any more empty space is ludicrous when there is such a loss in density. There are two parks within 4 blocks of each other. How much many more do we need? Architects including spaces for "human intearction" is always an easy way to impress clients. Of course developers and business leaders want people around their buildings. But whether humans will really interact, or at least pass through the space is a question. In architecture school, I see students throw this type of program into their buildings to impress the critics and enhance their buildings more visually. I just love when the critics pop the question "So are there really a large amount of people that pass the site? Where do they come from? Do you think they will really gather there? What will you do to make them actually enter this space between your building?" Those are some great questions for Detroit. Even great cities that have done this such as New York have failed miserably on some public plazas at the base of office buildings.

Woodward was meant to be a canyon of buildings, and it should stay that way.

[RustTown]

Exactly. Detroit has more than enough plazas and squares downtown, and Woodward (particularly with at this place with Campus Martius literally a block down) is the very last place that needs another one directly against the rest of the streetscape. I wouldn't be against something like this along Washington or some other area, but the whole point of Woodward was to be the sole, unbroken "canyon" of the downtown area. This is the ONLY area capable of having that effect and it should be kept that way.

I can't wait to see what REDICO comes up with, though.

[statedude3]

The only way a plaza or whatever would work, in my opinion, is if there was such a need for a gathering area- like an entrance to a retail prominade, or an outdoor eating/entertainment area for a high profile restaraunt (i.e. cheesecake factory, chicago).

On a side note, when reading the cheesecake factory website today, I found out that the original cheesecake lady lived in Detroit. I'm told there is one going into The Somerset Collection, but I am not 100% sure.

[RustTown]

Actually, the Woodward Block will contain the most retail of any of the Campus Martius blocks, but I'd still rather see a cross-shapped arcade instead of a plaza.

[Wordsmith]

Quite sorry to go off topic but what is the appeal of that place (The Cheesecake Factory) supposed to be anyhow?

As an amateur appreciator of Architecture I don't really have the technical backing for my argument that others have. But I don't think it's practical to have another public square packed in there when there's so much space nearby (and they've been named) that we see empty. And they're very gorgeous, classic places (Grand Circus Park being my favorite, and not quite as empty as say, Harmonie Park) that aren't seeing near their full potential. I think that we should work on filling downtown back up and worry with running out of space before trying to impliment space we do not need.

WS

[wolverine]

The Cheesecake factory is known for making really good..guess: cheesecake. Their food pretty good, but not as good as their desserts. It's relatively upscale and didn't exist in too many places, but now are proliferating across the U.S. Ironically, this company has Detroit roots, which hardly anyone, including Michiganders realize. There are no locations in Michigan.

That's all I know off the top of my head.

[RustTown]

Michigan is notorious for creating or instilling, and then shipping away it's talented only for them to make it big in other places and never give Michigan a second glance.

[Michi]

I emailed Cheesecake Factory and told them they need to get on the bandwagon here in downtown Detroit. I mentioned either the new riverfront as a location or a Campus Martius location. I'm not about to let them overlook our far more unique location and land a spot in Troy.

[Zissou]

They should put a Cheesecake factory downtown. I think it would be a real big draw. Put it somewhere in Campus Martius and let Hard Rock and Cheesecake Factory fuel each other.

[hudkina]

Hard Rock, Cheesecake Factory, House of Blues! We're movin' on up!

[Zissou]

I think the key to all those being successful is putting them in the same general area. If theres a HOB or Cheesecake factory across or down the street from Hard Rock odds are it will boost business for that restaurant.

[Zissou]

I think the key to all those being successful is putting them in the same general area. If theres a HOB or Cheesecake factory across or down the street from Hard Rock odds are it will boost business for that restaurant.

[Michi]

Hard Rock, Cheesecake Factory, House of Blues! We're movin' on up!

Well...the reply I got from them was, "OH." That's about it..."OH."

[wolverine]

LOL. Well, from my own personal opinion, I still don't think the market is right yet for a Cheesecake factory downtown. With some more businesses, companies, and activity downtown, I'm sure they'll come in due time.

Okay, so there's been some hot discussion at DetroitYES about the Hudson's block. There was emotions let lose as well, as usual, including the handle "KraemerDesignGroup" getting caught up in the debate about their above design. I still personally like it. I'm not sure how well the plaza would actually work. From a programatic standpoint it would probably be successful as long as there is a lot of business activity ocurring around it.

Anyway, some foggy questions we've had a long have been somewhat cleared up.

The underground parking structure can support up 16 stories, but not necessarily across the whole site. AS mentioned, certain building have different loading requirments meaning something like a 20 story decorative tower could be built (like Hudsons). The steel beams and supporting structure are oriented differently and can only carry 3 towers facing perpendicularly to Woodward. That means their facades along Woodward would be shorter if their longest side was to occupy the entire site depth. However, across the entire site, the steel can support 3 levels of retail at the base of the superstructure. Basically, during construction of the ramp, it was thought ahead that a mall could eventually come to the downtown.

There's also people hinting at rock financial as well as some government entity in talks with REIDCO about moving their locations downtown. I'm certain this is probably happening, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'll move. Some of Rock financial's leases are near their end, so a move is always possible. There are also tax benefits to building in a renaissance zone.

An additional parking structure would likely need to be built if a large corportation were to move to this site. Apparently there is already available land for this.

That's all I really got out of the thread other than some my city vs your city argument and some people upset about the design.

[Zissou]

Ive been browsing it too and it really is an interesting discussion if you can ignore the bickering.

[RustTown]

Yeah, the personal attacks between Skulker and Danindc really killed that for me. I tried like hell to wade through all of it to get to the nuggets, but it was hard. I could really see people getting personal in a thread about race, or social structure, but this was simply discussing a concept of all things, something that has about as much chance of getting built as a thousand-footer. lol As I've said before, I don't care so much about the design as long as they keep a complete facade along the Woodward frontage. Actually, I will compromise and say that light courts, like at Cadillac Place/GM Building in New Center, would work. But a public plaza not only kills the street wall, but is not needed. You'd expect these little faux plazas out in a suburban towne center, not along the densest wall of buildings in the metropolitan area.

[Zissou]

Yeah that thread is THE reason im just a browser on DY. Its a great site for information but the attacks are just too much.

Faux plaza? Again, I like it and I liked the way the KraemerDesignGroup explained it on DY. You go to major cities like New York and Chicago and they have these plazas which are quite successful. I know what your thinking, "what about Harmonie Park, Capitol Park, etc.." The difference is that the way Detroit is developing this corridor this plaza would be successful. Campus Martius is a zoo during the day when the weather is nice and this is without One Kennedy being built. Now imagine a few years down the line with One Kennedy and possibly Monroe Block being built with residential or commercial or both. Campus Martius and Cadillac Square could hold all these people but it will be packed. Having a secondary plaza like the one in the rendering with retail and a restaurant will be nice.

With a wall down Woodward or not im pleased with the design. If it was flipped I would still like it. If it was turned into a courtyard, I would still like it. And its not like you would be able to see over to Library between those building along Woodward. There still is another sizable structure there to keep Woodward enclosed so its not like a gaping hole.

Im both excited and fearful of what Redico is going to put out. You may end up wishing Kraemer's backers were picked.

[wolverine]

Because of the ramps structural design, light courts would be added anyway where a large superstructure cannot be supported. That's assuming the building is monolithic. The idea of huge massive floorplates without natural light reaching the interior is a dead concept in architecture. Atriums are more popular in deisgn then ever, and light courts are beginning to make a nice comeback since people want windows.

I'm actually putting a light court in my building model right now for architecture school. Except I dropped a piece of plexyglas with glue on it and it fell "7 stories" to the bottom and won't come out. Now I hate lightcourts.

[Zissou]

I'm actually putting a light court in my building model right now for architecture school. Except I dropped a piece of plexyglas with glue on it and it fell "7 stories" to the bottom and won't come out. Now I hate lightcourts.

[tapezord]

this is why god invented auto cad 3D rendering, wolverine

[wolverine]

Yes, I use those too, and they are incredibly easy and make beautiful renderings. But they want us to waste our time on these awful models as well that take us all night to do.

I used a long screwdriver and have finally liberated the chunk of plexy form the lightcourt.