Has anybody seen this?

[soulbrotha]

thanks

bzorch, i dont think Louisville is lacking confidence, its not like City officials drew up the plan for a 61 story tower. They found out about the height on the same day the general public did. That spot was just over due for a skyscraper to be built.

But like i said before, i look forward to watching, and photographing this giant go up. It will be successfull.

[Vertigo]

Thank you NewTowner,

Your post exemplifies why Museum Plaza has the potential to become one of the most important skyscraper projects this country will see this decade. Heaven forbid something should go against the accepted norm. You sound like a terrified NIMBY. It's actually quite funny. Despite the whole 'sky is falling' mentality that has infiltrated many people's reactions to this project, I can assure you that Louisville has the ability to balance the shocking avante-gard with the wealth of historical structures it already possesses. Other cities may not but that's their problem.

Louisville needs to learn from Brasilia?

Ha!

It already has and that's why the same mistakes made in the 60's and 70's won't be repeated again. How hard is it for you people to understand this. Just because something is in the International Style doesn't mean you can automatically slap the 'crap' label on it. How narrow minded and more importantly how IGNORANT can you get.

That being said, I do think you have a great talent as a communicator. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. You do an exellent job of say a lot but at the end of the day you actually haven't said a darn thing.

[ppassafi]

Thank you NewTowner,

Your post exemplifies why Museum Plaza has the potential to become one of the most important skyscraper projects this country will see this decade. Heaven forbid something should go against the accepted norm. You sound like a terrified NIMBY. It's actually quite funny. Despite the whole 'sky is falling' mentality that has infiltrated many people's reactions to this project, I can assure you that Louisville has the ability to balance the shocking avante-gard with the wealth of historical structures it already possesses. Other cities may not but that's their problem.

Louisville needs to learn from Brasilia?

Ha!

It already has and that's why the same mistakes made in the 60's and 70's won't be repeated again. How hard is it for you people to understand this. Just because something is in the International Style doesn't mean you can automatically slap the 'crap' label on it. How narrow minded and more importantly how IGNORANT can you get.

That being said, I do think you have a great talent as a communicator. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. You do an exellent job of say a lot but at the end of the day you actually haven't said a darn thing.

Well said, Vertigo. And I think the true test is not what some misinformed people on Urban Planet say, but rather what the architecture and design community says about it. And the fact is, this building is being hailed as a new and innovative form. As it turns out Museum Plaza is a small recycling of a project OMA planned in Bangkok!! Anyways, this article also correctly states that skyscraper architecture hasn't been reinvented since the 1970's. When you look at buildings going up internationally, Louisville's proposal seems almost tame.

I think the REAL shock here is 1) people dont know Louisivlle is a large metro of 1.3 million. 2) People dont understand how rich this developer is and how our downtown is booming 3) they have NO IDEA of the world renowned architecture in this community and its appreciation for the arts.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:l-GUWl...s&ct=clnk&cd=22

[bzorch]

proposed in Museum Plaza are fantastic. I have always wished Nashville would build one.

With that said, it is disappointing that those on this discussion first assume that everyone else is ignorant or jealous. It seems if you do not like someone's opinion you lower the discussion to name calling.

What examples of buildings typologies such as this can you present that are successful? I think Louisville has done great things over the years. This is will not be one of them.

What does this type of building do for you? Instead of dismissing our criticism, give us a good argument for why this building is a good idea. Because it is cool is not a good reason. It will put Louisville on the map shows that the City does have a low self-esteem. As I said, the uses are wonderful, but why a skyscraper. I think of these could be better examples for how a museum and other uses could be assembled in way that creates a civic place while respecting the all important pedestrian scale:

Barcelona's Contemporary Art Center

Pompidous Center

Thes buildings have personality of their own, but respect the pedestrian-realm. Why put the museum on the 61st story? It seems the money would be better spent, renovating the great older buildings along Main Street and create a vibrant mixed-use community between Waterfront Park and Shipping Port with a mix of various styled buildings. There are still plenty of places where Louisville could use investment. From the article, it is clear the City will be investing in this project.

[ppassafi]

proposed in Museum Plaza are fantastic. I have always wished Nashville would build one.

With that said, it is disappointing that those on this discussion first assume that everyone else is ignorant or jealous. It seems if you do not like someone's opinion you lower the discussion to name calling.

What examples of buildings typologies such as this can you present that are successful? I think Louisville has done great things over the years. This is will not be one of them.

What does this type of building do for you? Instead of dismissing our criticism, give us a good argument for why this building is a good idea. Because it is cool is not a good reason. It will put Louisville on the map shows that the City does have a low self-esteem. As I said, the uses are wonderful, but why a skyscraper. I think of these could be better examples for how a museum and other uses could be assembled in way that creates a civic place while respecting the all important pedestrian scale:

Barcelona's Contemporary Art Center

Pompidous Center

Thes buildings have personality of their own, but respect the pedestrian-realm. Why put the museum on the 61st story? It seems the money would be better spent, renovating the great older buildings along Main Street and create a vibrant mixed-use community between Waterfront Park and Shipping Port with a mix of various styled buildings. There are still plenty of places where Louisville could use investment. From the article, it is clear the City will be investing in this project.

First off, you must be unfamiliar with Louisville. On West Main, there are hardly any buildings left to renovate. Humana is renovating the last major block for offices and the Museum Plaza WILL renovate about half a block of buildings that will essentially "fill up" the main street district with tenants that include condos, museums, a hotels, restauarants, and a couple boutiques.

So you are way off base when you say we need to renovate buildings before we build scrapers. Why doesnt Nashville scrap Sig Tower and renovate buildings? That is the logic you are using. In fact, with the YWCA building going loft, I can only think of ONE other block downtown in major need of rehabbing. Now, we could definitely start seeing some more infill on surface lots and this is already starting. Museum Plaza represents surface lot infill as well--surface lot infill on what amounts to an alley in the Ohio River's flood plain.

You want positives? Museum Plaza WILL tie in to the street since the entrance will be on main street and that component will have retail. Sounds like very few of you have even read about this thing, you just judge the book by its cover--its rendering. This project will add 10,000 more people to downtown a day, and since many will be residents and hotel guests, many will be there 24/7. These people will walk out of Museum Plaza onto main street and patronize museums, stores, and restaurants. Their prescence will lead to more development and an even greater confidence in downtown development (confidence is already high). This will lead to more investers who see a market downtown and they will have to start putting infill on surface lots or, as you mentioned, expand in to adjacent areas surrounding downtown which is ideal for a new loft district on the western fringe of downtown. In fact, Museum Plaza will be an impetus for the state to move forward with expanding river rd into ShippingPort, reconnecting that area to downtown.

You could make a SMALL argument that having a "sky plaza" is not a good idea bc it "takes away from street activity." But a sky plaza is so unique and grand that it is worth it. This thing has been in papers around the WORLD. This is huge whether you guys like it or not.

[Vertigo]

What does this type of building do for you? Instead of dismissing our criticism, give us a good argument for why this building is a good idea. Because it is cool is not a good reason. It will put Louisville on the map shows that the City does have a low self-esteem. As I said, the uses are wonderful, but why a skyscraper. I think of these could be better examples for how a museum and other uses could be assembled in way that creates a civic place while respecting the all important pedestrian scale:

I'll try to answer that this way....

Before the plans for this were even unveiled I just had one hope for this building. I didn't care what style it was, the color of it's exterior, or even the the height. I just wanted a structure that would have the following effect on people:

1/3 would love it, 1/3 would hate it, and 1/3 would have to think about it.

When I saw the renderings in the newspaper for the first time I knew the architects and developers had knocked this one out of the ballpark. For me this had very little to do with hometown pride. I just wished for more projects like this to be built everywhere.

You could drop an average person in downtown Dallas or downtown Calagary and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It seems as though despite our great strides in technology and engineering we have actually regressed in our desire to create unique and lasting architectural statements whether they be right or wrong.

Our society has become one in which someone that stands out becomes shunned for not fitting in. Even though we deny this. Look at the endless repetitive designs found in shopping malls, restaurants, and subdivisions across our country. We've become comfortable with sameness. Personally, I find that boring and I'm ready for a change.

I saw Museum Plaza as an opportunity to break that mold. In a large city it would go somewhat unnoticed because those cities are expected to experiment with alternative urban concepts. It's a common occurance. But in Louisville, it becomes more than just a building. This could serve as a wake up call to all cities (big or small) that there are other ways to gauge the quality of city. Besides pro sports, upscale shopping, or the number of Starbucks found on every street corner.

I understand the concerns from others such as NewTowner and I respect everyone's opinion. Again, that's what makes this such a wonderful project. People are actually talking about it. However, I still must stand by my opinion that I do think there is still a lot of ignorance (meaning uninformed not stupidity) regarding Museum Plaza.

Myth 1 'This project destroys street level activity'

Not true. Louisville has been one of the most proactive cities in recent years to enhance it's streetscapes. The Main Street district located adjacent to this project has been a huge success story with its art galleries, museums, restaurants, and hotels that have moved into the area. This project will not suck everyone up the glass elevator to the 22 floor. If this were being built Phoenix there might be a problem. But Phoenix doesn't have these these 100+ year old buildings (and the baseball bat) that will remain such a draw for residents and visitors alike. Main Street is a museum within itself. Every time you walk down this street you can always discover a new detail that you never noticed before. People won't abandon that.

Across downtown 4th Street Live! has been a huge success at reinventing a desolate streetscape. On weekends, thousands flock to the public concerts and spill out onto the street and plaza. The good news is that this is only phase I. Future plans call for redeveloping several blocks into a large theatre/entertainment district.

Louisville understands the importance of vibrant streetscapes. It's worked hard to protect them and found unique ways to enhance them. Museum Plaza will not hinder that momentum.

Myth 2 'This project will destroy the city's urban fabric'

First of all. Not a single building is being torn down for this project. That is why I wish people would stop comparing this to the horrific developments that occured in the 60's and '70's. It's not like half the city is being bulldozed to make room for this 'development of the future'. That's why I still laugh at the Brasilia comparison.

Yes, Louisville lost a lot in the '60's and '70's just like most cities. But it also did a better job of preservation when compared to it's counterparts. That's probably why the city is less fearful of a project such as this. The scars aren't as deep as they are in some cities.

At this point it simply becomes a question of aesthetics. Does it fit in? Which brings us back full circle to the reason why I wanted something that would force people to think. There is no rule that says art has to be beautiful or even that it has to fit in. There are no right or wrong answers when it comes to this. It should simply provoke a response.

That's all I wanted. And I'm glad that's what I got.

[GRDadof3]

And I think the true test is not what some misinformed people on Urban Planet say, but rather what the architecture and design community says about it.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:l-GUWl...s&ct=clnk&cd=22

No, the true test is whether anyone will want to live/work in this thing. No amount of awards pays the bills..

[Skyscrapergeek]

I think we're missing the real question here. Exactly how many barrels of crude can we expect this thing to produce each day? I mean, we may be looking at the solution to our energy problems.

[cdub]

First off, you must be unfamiliar with Louisville. On West Main, there are hardly any buildings left to renovate. Humana is renovating the last major block for offices and the Museum Plaza WILL renovate about half a block of buildings that will essentially "fill up" the main street district with tenants that include condos, museums, a hotels, restauarants, and a couple boutiques.

First off, we are familiar with Louisville. To say that the downtown has no areas left to develop is false. Does this photo of Main Street look like there are hardly any buildings left to renovate?

It's been about a year since this photo was taken, maybe all of these structures have been renovated, but highly unlikely in that time.

Second, saying that this structure will enhance the Main Street fabric is insane. The building, minus bank deposit tube, doesn't interact with Main in any way, shape, or form. It might as well have an off ramp directly onto it from I64. Will there actually be retail on the 1st levels, or is that all up on the 22nd 'pie in the sky'? The sky plaza as a public space will never function in that way. For a plaza to function successfully, it must be inviting to passers-by. How many high rise structures have you been by that you feel you're able to freely walk into and peruse at your own free will? Do you walk by the Humana building and it invites you inside and welcomes you with open arms to visit it's upper levels? No. Look into William Whyte and the Sociability of Urban Spaces. You'll see how these 'plazas' are a slap in the face of everything urban.

As for the International style, I thought that died in the 70's. I had an architecture buddy, and yes, I am an urban designer as well, once use this quote regarding the style when on a field trip in Chicago, or NYC, or who cares because because it doesn't matter where, "those buildings are like butt holes, every city's got one." Now, you've got five, all in one project. How proud.

On a related note, or you not feeling jipped in any way for the fact that this is an exact copy of a failed design elsewhere? Maybe there's a reason it failed somewhere else, because it's not good design? It feels like to me you're getting the Christmas Fruitcake nobody else wants.

[bzorch]

Forgive me for making assumptions about Main Street. I knew that was a bit of a leap. The last time I was in Louisville was in Fall of 2004 and the one thing that struck me on Main was the beautiful bordered up buildings. I also saw them in the Museum Plaza video and assumed that it had not changed. I do know the area between the Arts District and Shipping Port could use some dramatic changes. The Lottery offices can not do it alone.

You should not assume I want Signature Tower built. Based on the evolution of the city and my experience with successful cities, I have not been convinced, skyscrapers/towers are a topology that contributes to good urbanism. They are merely a hollow symbol of power and offer nothing but a great shot for post cards. Part of my participation in this forum, is to help me understand the fascination of skyscrapers. Any insight is appreciated.

How have we regressed in our desires to create unique and lasting architectural statements? Just because we do not like them on the size of Godzilla, doesn

[LA_TN]

Ok, I didn't get much feedback until now; but this is what I found out from talking with a few friends of mine in Louisville. Most people haven't heard a lot about it (they aren't geeks like us, I guess), since it was just unveiled days ago. The feedback I got, was that most think the building is horrendous and that it doesn't fit in with the skyline. This shocked me to hear that. All stated they don't think it will have street level interaction. Most people want the new arena more than this building. And with that, they would rather see $75 million spent on the arena instead of this building because they think the arena will make more money and bring more revenues to the city (both city and local businesses). They also questioned why I-64 would have to be moved and what impact would it have; although none knew of the details involved.

The condos should sell well; but it will be difficult to fill 300,000 sq ft of office space, and if they do, they will be robbing other spaces in the process. They expect some businesses to move to the Plaza, because it is new, while vacating other spaces leaving them empty with nothing to fill them.

Anyway, I didn't expect this negative of a reaction, but this is somewhat of a consensus of a few people expanded to some of their friends/family/co-workers. I guess, bring on the arena.

Not really my personal opinion, but thought I'd share this...

[Lexy]

The point of the design is being reinforced on this board and others. We are sitting here arguing over the design of the buidling. To me, that is art.

[NewTowner]

The point of the design is being reinforced on this board and others. We are sitting here arguing over the design of the buidling. To me, that is art.

Since when are we not supposed to argue over the content and form of art?

Anyway...geez...it is truly quite good that so many of us agree in some important basic principles of urban design--namely, mixed-use development, downtown residential "components", and the fact that architecture is an aesthetic art.

We disagree about this Museum Plaza, in all of its vainglorious specifics, and to its ideaological core--but lets all remember our common values and not get all huffley-puffley and stuff. I apologize if I offended anyone with my zealously specific rebuttals, particularly SoulBrotha and Vertigo, and hope that we can continue a dialogue about this horrible mistake in the making while assuming the best in each other.

We are all urban aficionados, passionate about the built environment, and hopeful about the future of our cities. That is a good starting point from which to have friendly discussion.

And I guess I would be a NIMBY--despite my appetite for public transportation and a heavily-embellished civic realm--if the losers in a Civil War on E.T.'s homeworld wanted to build a refugee camp in the center of Nashville. This building is not daring or challenging or artistic or anything else in that abstracted department...it is downright cheezy.

[NewTowner]

I think we're missing the real question here. Exactly how many barrels of crude can we expect this thing to produce each day? I mean, we may be looking at the solution to our energy problems.

Speaking of oil, here's a thought for everyone: how do you think this thing will fare in the face of skyrocketing energy prices? Can anyone say, "climate control expenses"? How much energy will that Mollusk's Member require to operate compared to, say, a traditional front door?

[ppassafi]

First off, you must be unfamiliar with Louisville. On West Main, there are hardly any buildings left to renovate. Humana is renovating the last major block for offices and the Museum Plaza WILL renovate about half a block of buildings that will essentially "fill up" the main street district with tenants that include condos, museums, a hotels, restauarants, and a couple boutiques.

In fact, with the YWCA building going loft, I can only think of ONE other block downtown in major need of rehabbing.

Scroll up and read my post again. The "boarded buildings" in the Museum Plaza video are a half a block of buildings that will contain STREET LEVEL retail as part of Museum Plaza. This STREET LEVEL retail will have a long hallway that leads to Museum Plaza's sideways elevator in the back of the buildings, a tourist attraction on its own. With this rehab and other rehabs in the area (Humana office, 21C luxury boutique hotel, etc) Main Street will be basically 100% refurbished from brook to 9th street downtown with the exception of ONE SIDE OF ONE BLOCK.

And look at my post. I say after these rehabs, there is only ONE major block downtown in need of serious rehab--and you posted a picture of it. The pic is of "whiskey row" old whiskey warehouses built in high, mid nineteenth century style. The buildings are in such bad shape that a developer wanting to turn them condo is having a hard time making it financially feasible. Most cities would have demolished these, so I am glad Louisville has the patience to wait until condos downtown are so profitable it will be worth it to a developer to spend 75 million to buy and rehab this row.

I am not saying downtown Lville needs no more work. EVERY downtown including NYC needs work. However, after these rehabs, there will be only one side of one block that is boarded a la Detroit style. From there, Louisville will really start having to put some infill on surface lots, or start "kicking out" some of the lower end retail like wig shops on south 4th st. But the thing is, none of these buildings need renovations like some boarded up buildings I see in St Louis. These buildings just need new, nicer retail tenants. And that is really starting to happen as Cordish has plans to develop more retail and entertainment downtown. I can think of a half dozen restuarants slated to open in March alone downtown, with two of them mean upper end. Primo will be operated by NYC's Myriad who runs famous places like Nobu. They have places in San Fran, London, NYC and now Louisville. That speaks volumes about the dining scene here. And another upscale place opening soon is Jeff Ruby's a man famous for his upscale steakhouses in Cincy who said the dining scene and downtown in Louisville were "too good for him to pass up."

Downtown Louisville has changed so drastically in 2 years you can hardly recognize it. So, I encourage you all to get back and check it out for any that havent been since 2004. And as I said, when there is nothing left to rehab (also remember there are several 100+ old businesses in downtown like a wagon works that is now an auto supplies store so it may look old, but its still a good, functioning business), you are going to start seeing surface lot infill. Museum Plaza, Cathedral Commons apartments, the Marriot Hotel, and several other condo projects on east Main/Market are doing infill too.

[UrbaniDesDev]

The fact that Downtown Louisville is so nice is the fact that I can't stand this ugly tower. Who is the architect anyway? It is cold and uninviting, Frankly, I don't think it will ever happen. Or at least for Lousville's sake, I hope it doesn't. It will be a mistake

[NewTowner]

Downtown Louisville has changed so drastically in 2 years you can hardly recognize it. So, I encourage you all to get back and check it out for any that havent been since 2004. And as I said, when there is nothing left to rehab (also remember there are several 100+ old businesses in downtown like a wagon works that is now an auto supplies store so it may look old, but its still a good, functioning business), you are going to start seeing surface lot infill. Museum Plaza, Cathedral Commons apartments, the Marriot Hotel, and several other condo projects on east Main/Market are doing infill too.

Sounds like you have some really awesome and fantastic stuff going on in Louisville! I am excited for your city and have been for a little while now. I even contemplated moving there, until recently. You and your fellow citizens have much to boast about.

But that doesn't change the fact that many people, all around the world, seem to think this Museum Plaza is an all-around rip-off and will be sincerely and deeply regretted. It is not just the "traditional urban design" folks in Nashville who think this is a bad project--world-respected authorities have lambasted it. It is getting slammed non-stop, by many of the same people who have praised all other elements of Louisville's rebirth--and although this doesn't mean it should be instantly panned, it should certainly give you all a little pause.

It is too big, too dependent on cheap energy, and too dependent on "cutting edge" aesthetics which have proven to become out-of-style and depressingly ugly in short order--basically, as soon as the shock wears off. There is no real lasting merit to the design--it will be universally lamented a few years down the road, and substantially lamented now. There are just better places to put all that hard investment...and more capable hands in which to trust such a sizable portion of urban investment. Koolhaus' cronies are all dinosaurs, and not the good kind. They have been intentionally designing their architecture with built-in aesthetic obsolescence--kind of like many automotive manufacturers do with their engineering--and this is such a transparent example of this kind of "avant-garde" design that it makes people laugh. It is so "cutting edge" that it has simultaneously referred to the Utopian future, the Modernist past, the Modernist's vision of the future, and the Utopian's memory of the past. It is a joke. Louisville won't be laughing when it becomes clear they have been suckered by a building with the enduring value of a high-dollar Pog collection.

It is possible, you know, to build human-scaled and genuinely beautiful buildings, with lasting appeal and adaptable use. This thing is just a ground-level nightmare--the product of a culture which confuses fads for art, technology with beauty, and big with grand.

Things are changing. The classical is calling us back from the brink, though what form it will take I do not know. I just hate to see Louisville get one of the last major gasps of the Post-Modern Adolescent Irony Cheap Energy Self-Indulgence smack in the middle of what is, for all other purposes, a city in Renaissance. The little textual "Flip!" on the video for the Museum Plaza, inserted right when the architects visually demonstrate how they are going to insult a healthy mouthful of the city's street grid, says it all. It is so childish and embarassing. Please, rethink this gigantic episode in Middle-Sized Town Overcompensation. You're getting jipped.

[RiverwoodCLT]

LOL Louisville You will need it with this one.

How many barrels of oil a day will it pump?

[Vertigo]

Sorry, i screwed up the quoting on this post.

From Newtowner

But that doesn't change the fact that many people, all around the world, seem to think this Museum Plaza is an all-around rip-off and will be sincerely and deeply regretted. It is not just the "traditional urban design" folks in Nashville who think this is a bad project--world-respected authorities have lambasted it.

Good. And I've enjoyed the discussion we've had so far on this forum.

It is possible, you know, to build human-scaled and genuinely beautiful buildings, with lasting appeal and adaptable use.

Of course it is. And Louisville is already blessed to have an abundance of structures such as this. Compared to many similar cities, I don't think that is something that Louisville is really lacking at the moment.

Honestly, de you think developers were thinking about 'human scale' when the Empire State building was built? It was built purely out of ego (as was much of New York City) but no one complains of that today. We can argue all we want about how buildings should be designed to follow any given set of rules regarding scale, appropriate style, or even functional benefit. But at the end of the day, most of the time these rules have little bearing on the historical significance a building will achieve.

Louisville isn't NYC but it's not Charleston, South Carolina either. It wants to establish it's own identity and projects such as this are just one way of achieving that. Scaled down structures don't do this. Outside of the artsy fartsy crowd, who really knows (or cares) about the new arts center that opened in Cincy. Nice project but not big enough to make a large impact.

Things are changing. The classical is calling us back from the brink, though what form it will take I do not know. I just hate to see Louisville get one of the last major gasps of the Post-Modern Adolescent Irony Cheap Energy Self-Indulgence smack in the middle of what is, for all other purposes, a city in Renaissance.

The 'smack in the middle' part illustrates one reason why I consider this to be such a great project. It also illustrates the biggest mistake made in the past. During the 60's and 70's so many wonderful structures were lost and replaced with those that look much like Museum Plaza. The reason why so many complain about the boring boxy designs from this era is because there was nothing for them to contrast with. Unless you consider the endless parking lots that were also a result of this destruction.

Today, we've reversed back the other way and preservationist have become somewhat fanatical toward saving structures. They'll argue, 'we don't want to repeat the horrible mistakes of the '70's.' Preserving a building is one thing but the preservation of an ENVIRONMENT is something different.

Louisville has wonderful preserved environments such as Cherokee Triangle and St. James Court. Downtown is different. I think a successful downtown celebrates it's past while constantly reinventing itself. The historical building facade still exists at 4th Street Live! but the day-glo orange canopy serves as a sharp contrast. Just like Hooter's the results are 'delightfully tacky yet unrefined', but it provides a needed POP of interest in what would normally be a button up business only section of town. Even better at night when the Vegas style neon lights up casting a reflection of the posh Seelbach Hotel.

Museum Plaza will definitely provide a POP in Main Street. Will it overpower the buildings on Main? No, in fact the ornate facades and the straight lines of Museum Plaza will resonate off one another accentuating the best features of both. In this case, the structures are still preserved but the environment as changed. It shows a progression of time. In certain locations such as this one, that's fine.

The little textual "Flip!" on the video for the Museum Plaza, inserted right when the architects visually demonstrate how they are going to insult a healthy mouthful of the city's street grid, says it all. It is so childish and embarassing.

Again, the day-glo orange comes to mind. I think there comes a point when we can all begin to take of of this too seriously. The waterslide/Iron Girder/Street Ramp/Conveyor Belt (elevator) that lowers from the 22 floor museum is this project's day-glo orange. Plus the fact that it will be rammed into the back of one of the historical buildings on Main only adds to the impact. The feature is quirky and has caused a great amount of confusion on these boards. The same will happen when visitors see the building for the first time.

When they find out it is actually an elevator, many will be excited and dare I say 'childish' at the thought of riding a diagonal glass elevator to the museum.

[NewTowner]

Louisville isn't NYC but it's not Charleston, South Carolina either. It wants to establish it's own identity and projects such as this are just one way of achieving that. Scaled down structures don't do this. Outside of the artsy fartsy crowd, who really knows (or cares) about the new arts center that opened in Cincy. Nice project but not big enough to make a large impact.

You made a lot of good points in your last post, Vertigo, and you clearly are not completely lost when it comes to what make good places Good...but in the end, I guess we will just have to disagree about this thing. You don't have to build big to build beautiful, and you must admit that size--much less size ALONE--will not achieve the results you are looking for.

I'll take Florence's Duomo and the Plaza Mejor in Salamanca any and every day of the week over the kind of megalith landmark you find gratifying and "challenging." This Museum Plaza atrocity will be memorable, all right...like a cheezy and violent movie, in a bad dream, after eating too much spoiled bologna.

But I guess we just disagree. I am a Renaissance man, and you are a Modern. Hopefully people like us can find enough common ground in other areas to continue a common project towards American urban rebirth. I prefer the Paris Opera House, Savannah's squares, and Brussels' Art Nouveau fabric. You prefer the "avant-garde". I prefer beauty and truth, and believe there are absolute standards by which we can judge them--such as the universal size and proportions of the human body, and the universal human need for companionship and rewarding experience. We both want a version of "progress," but your version does not depend upon beauty for its justification--there are higher goals in your sights. I believe progress requires beauty in order to be progress at all.

Of course, energy prices and the common neighborhood man may both side with human-scaled projects, in the end. And that is just the nature of reality--the kind of reality the Museum Plaza attempts to play make-believe all over. With that, I bid you a respectful farewell. We can all look forward to watching Louisville continue its journey back to civic life in the years to come. Maybe I will see you in Nashville!

[LA_TN]

The people of NYC took YEARS to warm up to the World Trade center towers when they were built. Everyone thought they were ugly, cold, and un-inviting. Sound familiar?

Interesting: My wife and I choose to move from STL to Nashville with option two as Louisville. Part of reason was location, but my wife really did not like Louisville (just me). But why goes back to my earlier post about the arena. I have had several discussions over the last 5+ years with friends from Louisville where they tell me that it at least appears Nashville is moving forward. They praise the city leaders of Nashville for pursuing the Titans and bringing the Predators. These things bring national prominence to a city. What will Museum Plaza do for Louisville that would be better than building an arena?

Also, Nashville is granting $12 million in TIF for Sig tower. That's a lot less than the $75 million asked by Museum Plaza.

[bzorch]

We can argue all we want about how buildings should be designed to follow any given set of rules regarding scale, appropriate style, or even functional benefit. But at the end of the day, most of the time these rules have little bearing on the historical significance a building will achieve.

The end result of architecture is a result of our cultural values. Just look at Big Box. We value skyscrapers because they reflect success and economic prowess. I find it strange that so many people do not value human scale development. As I said before, I am trying to understand the fascination with building high. Nothing has convinced me yet that it is worth while. I look at buildings as playing a central role in how the public realm is experienced. They shape it. Their style is not as important as scale is to getting it right. These buildings should activate the edges of the space and make it interesting.

The urban environment reminds me of the convolutions of the human brain. The public space is the area between these folds where the social fabric of our city is knit together. Streets and other public space break up the mass of the urban environment and create numerous edge conditions. This is where we as citizens can connect to the energy of the city and to each other. These edges like in nature are the most diverse and interesting. By creating large structures that reduce the amount of active edges, we seem to lose that diversity. As buildings pull people away from the street higher and higher, the inhabitants lose that connection to the public realm. Particularly as we try and create large self contained environments. I would dare to speculate that the Museum Plaza developers will want to retain as many customers as possible within the building. They will not want people to go and eat or shop on Main Street, so I doubt they will make it easy.

Adding to this is the real economics of the city. I would not imagine Louisville has an endless stream of investment because there is not endless demand. We can only fill so much space at a time. To waste it in a 61 story tower instead of a mix of low rise (2-4 stories) and mid-rise (5-12 stories) boggles my mind. For people that want a diverse vibrant mixed-use urban environment, why would you want it all in a tall building? 1.2 million square feet of space is taking a big chunk of the demand within this area of the city. So if it is fine that this building fulfills your desires because it could be some time before more investment follows because the Museum Plaza has sucked up the market then it may be a good idea, but if you want to add meaningful urban space then take the $380 million and invest in the fabric within a large portion of the downtown or adjacent neighborhoods with great potential.

As NewTowner has said we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I do enjoy the discussions. I am sure the next big discussion in Nashville is going to be the Convention Center which is releasing their report this Friday. It may be interesting.

BTW, Has Joshua Prince-Ramus released any press releases for his take on the building? I would love to hear him describe it.

[bzorch]

Very timely article. Worth reading.

Linked to Article about Cincinnati Contemporary Art Museum

[GRDadof3]

The people of NYC took YEARS to warm up to the World Trade center towers when they were built. Everyone thought they were ugly, cold, and un-inviting. Sound familiar?

Although the World Trade Centers now hold a special place in many of our hearts, they are still to this day a terrible design in many people's opinion. They cut that area of Manhatten in half and completely changed the dynamic of the neighborhood when they were built (almost like a major freeway does). That is why so many people wanted to re-connect the streets in the new Freedom Tower design. Just a thought.

Also, if this things gets built in the near future, how are the horizontal sections going to be built if steel continues to skyrocket? I don't think you can do cast-in-place concrete in mid-air

[Vertigo]

The Cincinnati article is interesting but not the least bit surprising. Talk about a tale of two cities....

While Louisville builds Waterfront Park, Cincy installs TWO monstrous stadiums on it's riverfront. Notice these sit empty most of the year.

While Louisville develops 4th Street Live! to entice LARGE crowds into the city, Cincy builds an art museum (while very nice) with nowhere near the drawing power of a late night party venue. Louisville took a cue from Nashville on this one.

The art museum in Cincy was touted as the thing that would 'bring the city back from the brink' . That was ridiculous thinking in the first place. A vibrant downtown offers a wide VARIETY of attractions to cater to a large cross section of the population. Honestly, Cincinnati has one of the most desolate downtowns anywhere and it's due purely to a series of urban planning mistakes. Even the Masionette (five star restaurant) packed up it's bags to move to the suburbs due to a lack of business. That's because everyone is across the river in Newport.

Downtown Cincy was dead before the art museum was built. While downtown Louisville can improve it is light years ahead of Cincinnati in terms of activity and positive development. I honestly thought that would never happen but it has. Museum Plaza isn't intended to save Louisville, it's simply the next step in a long and well coordinated effort to up the city's image. When the 'wow!' factor of Museum Plaza wears off there will still be the Slugger Museum, The Ali Center, Fazier Historical Arms Museum, The Kentucky Craft Gallery, Glassworks, and The Science Center. And that's just within the Main Street area alone. Notice in the article how the author mentions how uninviting the exterior of the museum is due to a lack of activity in the surrounding area.

In Louisville these attractions work as a group to draw a large demographic of the population. A very small number are interested in only discussing how a pile of sticks constitutes 'modern art'. It can't stand on it's own. Cincinnati found this out the hard way.