Has anybody seen this?

[tombarnes]

Architects in Europe are just as capable of producing an unfortunate design as their counterparts anywhere in the world. How much time was spent on the project is completely beside the point. Lots of time has been spent on many things which turned out to be unfortunate mistakes. I think this will be one of them- IF it is built. I doubt it will pass muster. Sure it's interesting, but is it good design?

[ATLBrain]

Lots of time has been spent on many things which turned out to be unfortunate mistakes.

It took my firm 9 months to install a new computer system, and it is a disaster. I'm such a rube.

[soulbrotha]

It will happen....this has been in the works for sometime. The vencor tower that was supposed to go in this location didn't go through 6 years ago, so i'm pretty sure Louisville will not drop the ball on another skyscraper in that same location...its just not happening.... and really louisville didn't even drop the ball on that tower because the company that was supposed to build it went bankrup, that wasn't the cities fault.

The chicag-tribune described the museum plaza as "avant-garde" i think it would be interesting to post some more "avant-garde" buildings to see how they compare to the museum plaza

The photo was taken August 31 of the European avant-garde skyscraper Turning Torso recently completed in Malmo of Sweden. The building, 189 meter in height, was designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava. It has nine strata, which consist of five stories each, and 152 units. Each stratum rotates somewhat so that the whole building turns 90 degrees. The lowest two strata of the buildings are offices with the other seven containing 150 luxurious residential units. Together the building totals 150,000 square meters. Santiago Calatrava said the design of the building was inspired by a sculpture of a turning human torso.

The photo was taken August 31 of the European avant-garde skyscraper Turning Torso recently completed in Malmo of Sweden. The building, 189 meter in height, was designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava. It has nine strata, which consist of five stories each, and 152 units. Each stratum rotates somewhat so that the whole building turns 90 degrees. The lowest two strata of the buildings are offices with the other seven containing 150 luxurious residential units. Together the building totals 150,000 square meters. Santiago Calatrava said the design of the building was inspired by a sculpture of a turning human torso

its very, in my opinion, to be the first to do something. not all skyscraper should just look like straight verticle towers.

[tombarnes]

I think that's the problem here. This design isn't terribly innovative. It looks like a heap of 1960's Bauhaus-inspired towers flung together. Perhaps it's innovative in a technical or structural way. That doesn't stop it from being awkward and unfriendly. I think Calatrava's buildings are far superior to this one. Sure some of them are far out. Far out might work in Louisville just as splendidly as it worked in Milwaukee. This design, in my opinion, doesn't hold a candle to Calatrava's work.

[soulbrotha]

i love it....its two 50+ story towers in one. 1,100 capacity underground parking lot. 22 floor observation tower. open park on 22nd floor. (what other skyscraper has a public park on 22nd floor?) forget the look..even though i don't think it is that bad, this building will have so many features and purposes it will be crazy

[LA_TN]

This thread is making my head spin...

Food for thought - Seattle public library:

http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore_200406.html

soulbrotha - good attitude

I should be one of very few that can speak for Louisville and Nashville. My knowledge of the people in both cities tells my instincts that this building is right for Louisville, but out-of-character with Nashville. But this only speaking for this particular design. Red and black or black and gold? It's an opinion.

This building incorporate well with the area it's being built in, as I stated in my last post.

btw I can assure everyone here that I have never seen any hate/jealousy/whatever between the two cities. L'ville thinks Nashville is smaller; Nashville thinks L'ville is old. But neither dislikes the other.

I still say the mindset of Louisville makes this a go. This would not go in Atlanta (with all those buildings there....and nothing...). I should have some feedback to post tomorrow...

[tombarnes]

I think we can agree to disagree on this one. I'm sure it may have positive amenities which may be redeeming.

[Vertigo]

I just can't agree. Even in Atlanta, which is as close to a world class city as you can get between Miami and Chicago, I'm sure this building would be disliked by a large majority of the sample of 100, even laughed at by many. Does that make us rubes? Hardly. Most would think you could get a much better looking building for the money. But more than that, they'd know that this building isn't shocking. On the contrary, it's a step back. You see, our city is still trying to recover from the damage done by monstrous structures built in the 60s and 70s that rejected the fabric of the city.

I simply disagree that it takes effort to shock. There are lots of things that shock without any effort at all (i.e. body odor, bad table manners, and the Atlanta Falcon's self-destructive season). That doesn't make them great.

Why is shock! the statement of our times? Have we reached a point where the only meaning that can be derived from something or someone is to be offensive... er, I mean shocking?

I'm not shocked by this building (I don't think most on this forum are shocked). Rather, I'm disappointed that this kind of stuff is still being passed off as grand design. Louisville needs a great building to sit along its wonderful riverfront. It needs height, and yes, something edgy. Louisville doesn't need this structure. Sadly, it is shockingly ugly.

I'll probably dig myself in even deeper by saying this but I think Atlanta (from a skyline perspective) is exactly the type of city the developers are trying to distance themselves from.

We can debate endlessly the impact Portman had on modern urban design. Some good, some bad but I will say IMHO Peachtree Plaza is by far the best skyscraper ever built in Atlanta. Yet, Atlanta turned it's back on this treasure and tried to inject projects with a more traditional beauty into the skyline. I think this was a mistake. The newer Post Modern towers are gorgeous but they are....dare I say 'conservative' in many aspects. Is there anything wrong with this. No. Do these newer towers cause people on a national or International level to take notice. Not really. I think it simply shows a shift in aesthetic trends in this country where people are afraid to experiment.

Would this building look right in Atlanta? Of course it wouldn't. The city has shifted itself so far in another direction that it would definitely look out of place. But how would it look if none of the newer towers in Atlanta had their Post Modern flourishes? We'll never know the answer to that.

[ATLBrain]

Good luck with that.

[soulbrotha]

i think this skyscraper fits in nice with the national city plaza as well.

[Clobber]

I don't know how Louisville will feel about the design. I think the content of the building is great -- museum, condos, etc. Louisville will be the better for it. But the design itself? I'm not a fan of the design seems desperate -- different for different's sake, like the Simpsons episode when Moe decides to change his bar to "M." I am a fan of the content though, I think it will be great for Louisville. I guess the main thing is if the locals buy into it, that's all that really matters. If you're proud of it, you have every right to be. I think every city would like to see a 61-story building or 700 footer. So I think there *may* be jealousy just from the statistical point of view. But this design? I don't think there's a whole lot of jealousy there (I would certainly prefer a different design); that may be a poor choice of words.

I'm glad to see Louisville rising; as a Memphian I see a kinship between the two cities, intertwined in sooo many ways (Tigers/Cards, NBA pursuit, boxing, FedEx/UPS, Redbirds/Bats or Autozone Park/Slugger Field, etc). And both cities' downtowns are just booming these days; they're at different stages, but kind of hitting their stride. I haven't heard too much about the more recent developments in Louisville in a while, except for some of the updates on the downtown arena and this, but I'm going to check it out to see what Memphis can learn (and I'm sure we can learn quite a bit).

[ppassafi]

i think this skyscraper fits in nice with the national city plaza as well.

Ok, I went and saw the exhibit today. It is AWESOME. I blame it on the Courier-Journal for misinforming EVERYONE. What a terrible paper. In fact, it didnt even give the buildings location until the second page of the article!!!!!

This project WILL HAVE STREET LEVEL RETAIL!! They are taking what amounts to a half a block of vacant buildings on West Main St and rehabbing them (they are among the last vacant bldgs on West Main by the way). The 4 buildings combined will serve as a long "hallway" of retail, some of which (for a half a block) should be visible from the street. As you get to the back of the building, it will be the elevator to Museum Plaza, which will take you in an angled path over a street which is ACTUALLY an alley and up into Museum Plaza. This alley is Washington St, an old st that abuts the back of the Cast Irons on main. Within 50 feet you have the elevated I-64. So, this area will NEVER be a "street level" kind of place--its an alley for heaven's sake! The "street level" in this part of downtown is Main St.

Many of you are just confused about this building. Once again, not your fault--blame it on the paper. Think of the base of this building as a chair on a platform. The platform is the parking garage which will be mostly built underground and then some above ground. Despite them moving the flood wall to protect this building, it is still in the river flood plain and must be elevated for this reason. We have had a Katrina type flood here and cant risk it again (Google 1937 Louisville Flood!).

Now, back to the chair analogy. The four legs of the chair will be-- 1) upscale hotel (I hope they go for Conrad or Ritz) 2) Lofts 3) Luxury Condos. 4) Elevator "shaft." Each of the 3 buildings besides the elevator will have retail in the ground floor. For the Loft leg, they plan a coffee shop, small grocery, and dry cleaners. The hotel leg floor will obv be a lobby. The floor of the condo leg is going to be restuarant/retail TBA. All this will be accesible from the "street," which as I said is actually an alley abutted by an X-way. Now, the "seat" of the chair will be the one acre public plaza 22 floors from ground. The "seat" will actually be 4 floors itself. The 1st floor will be some sort of retail TBA (this is the one part of the project I dont like bc its sort of an elevated "mini mall." But the space wont really be that large on 1 floor, so Id maybe expect a few gallerys and maybe a couple places to buy a shirt. The 2nd floor will be the main floor with the art gallery, a swimming pool, and a "sky" restaurant/lounge for the hotel that will be accesible via this public plaza. The 3rd and 4th Floors of the "seat" will be for the U of L Master Fine Arts Program. Finally, we are to the "back support" part of the chair. On top of the seat will rest 3 structures. One will be offices, and the other two will be luxury condos.

Either you guys are unfamiliar with Louisville, or unfamiliar with this project. They are, for all practical purposes, building this thing in an ALLEY BEHIND the historic West Main cultural and museum district. There is NO WAY to integrate this thing with the street other than what they are doing--connecting it to West Main Street via retail in some of the old Cast Irons.

[soulbrotha]

i thought the exhibit didn't open till wensday? damn i was out today too, i could have went

[soulbrotha]

someone photoshopped the gaps

maybe in 20 years

[Vertigo]

^^^^^^

That photo is cool!

It's obvious that the architects of this project did a fantastic job of marketing this building to the developers and the public. However, I have to ask myself, why did they use that view of downtown from across the river? That's the worst location possible. Yes, it is the typical 'postcard' view of the city but the truth is that most people don't see the city from that vantage point. Not only that, but with this new building the postcard location should now change.

Most of the activity (bridges and parks) are located slightly upriver from that location. Views from those locations would essentially remove the 'gap' found in the above photos. From much of Waterfront Park, Museum Plaza would simply blend in with the skyline. I hope more images from these locations will appear so people can get a better feeling of how this will fit into the skyline.

[ppassafi]

^^^^^^

That photo is cool!

It's obvious that the architects of this project did a fantastic job of marketing this building to the developers and the public. However, I have to ask myself, why did they use that view of downtown from across the river? That's the worst location possible. Yes, it is the typical 'postcard' view of the city but the truth is that most people don't see the city from that vantage point. Not only that, but with this new building the postcard location should now change.

Most of the activity (bridges and parks) are located slightly upriver from that location. Views from those locations would essentially remove the 'gap' found in the above photos. From much of Waterfront Park, Museum Plaza would simply blend in with the skyline. I hope more images from these locations will appear so people can get a better feeling of how this will fit into the skyline.

yeah the waterfront view makes it look like Louisville has 10 buildings, which is far from the case. A view from Waterfront Park or even Shippingport to the west would be better. Soul, maybe u could photoshop an image of MP into one of your great Waterfront Park Skyline shots?

[soulbrotha]

i'll try

more angles

[soulbrotha]

Changing skyline

The birth of a building

Here's the story behind the radical Museum Plaza skyscraper

By Chris Poynter

[email protected]

The Courier-Journal

The design for a radical, new, 61-story skyscraper burst onto the Louisville scene Thursday, when Museum Plaza was unveiled to the public.

But the story of the building began well before that.

For the past five months, Courier-Journal staff writer Chris Poynter was granted access to the creative process by Museum Plaza's investors.

Here is the story of how this unique design came to be.

Courier Journal Article Link:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.d...ENE05/602120314

[Rural King]

soulbrotha, I fixed your article formatting. Check out the rules on posting articles, a short clipping is okay with a link, but preferably a short statement about the article with a link to it is the best way to post articles. Thanks!!! Again its good to have you here on UP.

Rules Link:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=260

[NewTowner]

The building is silly, and no amount of Gropian Pure Formism from Vertigo or confusion of the large with the beautiful by SoulBrotha will change the fact that it is an arrogant, future-worshipping, Baby Gap fashion-sucking, street-raping, unfortunate (but predictable) episode in Techno-Preteen over-compensation.

It is dumb-founding to me how sixty-odd years of nonstop urban disaster in America has still failed to clue so many people in on what makes--or at the very least, DOESN'T MAKE--good places. The only thing which would make this "Plaza" (!?!) more hilarious is if it were located ten miles outside of Louisville's city center--but at least this would help quarantine the cancerous shadow it will cast on what remains of the town's human-scaled, fine-grained, walkable, servicable, adaptable, embellished, sensible, and sustainable urban fabric.

I love it when architecture Fans quote Europe's mistakes in their efforts to justify "avant-gardism" in their MTV shock-ad megaliths. Whose idea was it, after all, that architecture and art was SUPPOSED to be the first salvo in a shock-war invasion, as Forward Troops (the meaning of AVANT-GARDE) lead a reluctant world into the Glorious Revolution, into a Brave New World where technology and the parenthood of the Artist State will unchain human society from the bonds of our own humanity? Utopian Socialists, in the tradition of Mao, Lenin, and Albert Speer. This world-view produced the same institutional future-worship which gave us the Public Housing Tower (poverty storage), the Urban Interstate (Boulevard Eraser), and the ubiquitous Surface Parking Lot (proud fields in which to display our Toys of Liberation!).

Ironically, the childish inheritors of the Modernist Urban Design "movement" have forgotten their forbears' cause, shortly after brushing it away in a clenched whine of Post-Modern Relativism--but they have retained a taste for militant architecture. After all, what better venue for personal glory? If there is no war, there can be no heroes. Of course, without casualties, there can be no war--and any Louisvillians who feel hesitant to speak out against this monster should remember that their opponents mean for their blood. Those who try to silence their protests by accusing them of being "stodgy" or "old-fashioned" happily know, but will not confess, that they have steeled themselves for the carnage which inevitably results when the AVANT-GARDE maniacs advance upon our neighborhoods and into our homes.

This building is a delibrate assault upon the senses, the minds, and the fabric of Louisville. We don't need an avant-garde Design Division of paratrooper idealogical consumer-babysitters and arrogant self-absorbed Ego-artists...we need an urban American Renaissance for grown-ups and citizens. May the designs for the Museum Plaza end up in an actual museum, sited on an actual plaza!! Don't let this thing win, I beg of you, as a patriot and concerned neighbor. Remember the lessons of Coventry, of Boston, of Los Angeles, and of Brasilia. Big ideas are no replacements for beauty. It really is that bloody simple.

[ATLBrain]

Oh why do I keep coming back to this thread? In this case, I saw NewTowner's name on the intro page and knew it would be good. I wasn't disappointed.

I love it when architecture Fans quote Europe's mistakes in their efforts to justify "avant-gardism" in their MTV shock-ad megaliths.

Usually when Americans seek to imitate bad European examples in the guise of good taste or (even worse) International style, it's motivated by dual layers of insecurity and arrogance. So the result turns out to be the equivalent of saying, "We better take what we can get. And so what if it's crap. We'll just tell those who criticize it that they're the ones who don't understand true art."

May the designs for the Museum Plaza end up in an actual museum, sited on an actual plaza!! Don't let this thing win, I beg of you, as a patriot and concerned neighbor. Remember the lessons of Coventry, of Boston, of Los Angeles, and of Brasilia. Big ideas are no replacements for beauty. It really is that bloody simple.

I think this is why so many of the locals here are praising this project. They have absolutely no outlet to voice their disapproval of this design. They know that it's a "GO" and the developers are the only ones the architect needs to please. From the article, the wealthy developers sound like bona fide nut-cases.

OK, I really am tired of this one. I'll go back to where I belong. NT, I suggest you do the same. This thing will be built.

[it's just dave]

I think I'll head back home, too. Chasing you guys around just so I won't miss anything you say is making me tired, but certainly worth the effort.

NT and AB, see ya at home.

[soulbrotha]

The building is silly, and no amount of Gropian Pure Formism from Vertigo or confusion of the large with the beautiful by SoulBrotha will change the fact that it is an arrogant, future-worshipping, Baby Gap fashion-sucking, street-raping, unfortunate (but predictable) episode in Techno-Preteen over-compensation.

thats a fact? i didn't know that lol

[bzorch]

Some food for thought:

"The most pernicious part of the Bilbao effect is that even major cities lose confidence and think they need extravagant buildings to remain interesting," Koolhaas said. He warned of the danger of architecture becoming "sloppy, uncritical. It's received with an enormous amount of attention and a negligible amount of seriousness."

Rem Koolhaas

Article: Rem Koolhaas Lecture

Other articles

Article: About Bilboa Effect

PPS Review of Seattle Library

Interesting Blog Entry: Comparing a Past Koolhaas Design

[NewTowner]

SoulBrotha, I must confess: you have some amazing photographs on your website. Whatever our tremendous differences on the Museum Plaza issue, I have to give you props on your fantastic eye.