Modest PVD Transit Ideas

[Recchia]

The Cranston station would be built with a massive redevelopment effort in the surrounding areas. The city and DOT wants TOD all around it, from Wellington to Elmwood and Park. Certainly an area that could use some more intensive redevelopment. Plus the Harbor Junction line runs right into the area, so theres an extra rail line for possible LRT from downtown.

[jencoleslaw]

i thought we did have a water taxi, one that went from Pawtucket (down the seekonk, i think?) into downtown Providence, but not enough folks used it so it went away. Did i imagine it? It is certainly possible that i did.

[gregw]

i thought we did have a water taxi, one that went from Pawtucket (down the seekonk, i think?) into downtown Providence, but not enough folks used it so it went away. Did i imagine it? It is certainly possible that i did.

You didn't imagine it. It folded a couple of years ago I think.

[millboy]

A couple of observations and suggestions for idea farming:

The water taxi wouldn't work north or west of the Waterplace basin, the river is on most days only 2 feet deep.

A succesful and nice surface light rail system exists in Jersey City, NJ.

Los Angeles has instituted a tierd bussing system, which is a combination of local and express routes. The local lines feed to hubs where express buses move larger numbers of people between the hubs.

Most mid-size European cities have light rail lines, Grenoble, Zurich.

[Lone Ranger]

The Cranston station would be built with a massive redevelopment effort in the surrounding areas. The city and DOT wants TOD all around it, from Wellington to Elmwood and Park. Certainly an area that could use some more intensive redevelopment. Plus the Harbor Junction line runs right into the area, so theres an extra rail line for possible LRT from downtown.

I know Cranston wants to improve its image in that area, especially those places that can be seen from I-95. I don't remember the specifics of the plan, but basically it sounded to me like Cranston wants its own highwayside office park, just like Warwick has.

Trying to attract attention. Which ... I dunno. Personally, I think that's a poor way to do it. I mean, anything would be better than the shabby industrial buildings that stand there (where the Cranston station would be) now. But frankly, one office park looks just like any other to me. Warwick wears its office park like a badge of honor, but honestly it always struck me as a dreary sort of place. It makes Warwick look as if it were trying too hard -- which is true. And in a word, it's awkward to look at.

[mr2448]

I should have explained what each line represents. The purple/magenta line is the current Amtrak line. It would carry Amtrak and MBTA Commuter Rail. MBTA would stop at stations marked with a T. The other stations would be served by somesort of more rapid service serving stops in Rhode Island up to Woonsocket, and probably a branch as far into Mass as Attleboro, coming probably 10 minutes at peak and 20 off peak.

The blue lines are trolley/streetcars running in various configurations, some would be in seperated medians, some would be in mixed traffic (especially Downtown), and some might be elevated (likely along route 2). The line that crosses the East Side would utilize the abandoned East Side Rail Tunnel.

The yellow lines are a better version of the current RIPTA trolleys. They would be branded buses (not the uncomfortable rickety trolleys we have now), running frequent service between key neighbourhood nodes such as Wayland Square, Olneyville, Wickenden Street, Hope Street... This would be the key way visitors and residents would move about the city. The branding would be bright and attractive to get people to notice the buses and entice people to ride them. I proposed calling them "WaveBus" and using an oversized wave motif on them.

Not on the map is the current bus network. It would remain with obvious changes, such as elimination of routes that would be duplicated by proposed new services. These would be the work horses serving residents and commuters. They would not get the WaveBus branding as they don't need to be attractive to visitors, residents would figure out where they are and how to use them as they do now.

I really enjoy the speculation going on in this thread. It has always been an interest of mine. My only additions as of now;

The Main line into Mass. should go to Taunton. This could create a frequent service (15 minute headways rush hour and 30 min midday) thru line from Taunton to Quonset. Less frequent heavy rail to Westerly.

On the Bristol line there is a little known branch into the Mobil oil center which borders Wamp. Trail. This would be a great location for park and ride with service levels equal to the Main line.

The Cranston-West Warwick line has to be reopened as light rail.

Frequent ferry service should be to Riverside-Bristol and Wickford. Maybe Bristol-Wickford service is possible. There needs to be another way to get across the bay as an upper bay bridge will never be built.

Self propelled cars (like the old Budd cars ) should be used. There are some new diesel consists of 2-3 cars available. The New Haven used a bus/train vehicle during the 50's in the waning days of Providence-Worcester service. There were 4 single units built and I think one survives.

just some thoughts.

I still have diagrams from my childhood concerning bus routes on the old UTC and how service could be improved to recapture the millions lost to cars.

Mark

[gregw]

Cool ideas. Ideally, the Point St. bridge could become a swing span (as it was originally) to allow the passage of water traffic. The Woonasquatucket may well be ruled out due to the Amtrak crossing. It's also in serious need of dredging. As it is now, I don't think you could get anything bigger than a canoe through there.

I don't think any passenger vessel could clear the Amtrak crossing under the mall, leaving the Promenade cut off from any water taxi system. I could be wrong on that, it might be possible. But I also think the Waterplace bridges would prove to be a tight fit at high tide. I think something could run from the Waterplace Basin to the Hurricane Barrier. But I would imagine any vessel that could navigate under those bridges, would not do well outside the Hurricane Barrier. It would likely have to be canceled too often due to swells in the upper bay.

I could certainly see something running from the Crawford Bridge, out the Hurricane Barrier to India Point then up the Seekonk River toward Pawtucket. And a shuttle running down to Conolly Wharf, over to EP, and down toward Bristol and/or Quonset. The Point Street Bridge could still prove to be problematic at high tide, it would be worth considering a project to raise the Point Street Bridge if that were a problem.

[jencoleslaw]

Cool ideas. Ideally, the Point St. bridge could become a swing span (as it was originally) to allow the passage of water traffic. The Woonasquatucket may well be ruled out due to the Amtrak crossing. It's also in serious need of dredging. As it is now, I don't think you could get anything bigger than a canoe through there.

due to the pollution (heavy metals) in the Woonasquatucket, i'd be surprised if it ever got dredged...

[Recchia]

I'm not sure what the city of Cranston envisions their station area to be, but in the Scope of Work for the study of the station area, there is specific language related to Transit-Oriented Development. So hopefully this would be the focus instead of creating another office parky area like Metro Centre Blvd in Warwick. But who knows, it is Cranston, and if I'm not mistaken their planners think that the Chapel Hill or whatever development at the old training school is a great development...

[Cotuit]

due to the pollution (heavy metals) in the Woonasquatucket, i'd be surprised if it ever got dredged...

Dredging in the river from the the Waterplace Basin south is on the city's agenda. There's a very unsightly, and smelly, sand(mud)bar that forms right under the Waterplace footbridge during lowtide.

[jencoleslaw]

Dredging in the river from the the Waterplace Basin south is on the city's agenda. There's a very unsightly, and smelly, sand(mud)bar that forms right under the Waterplace footbridge during lowtide.

i was thinking of further up, from under the mall and thru o-ville.

[Cotuit]

i was thinking of further up, from under the mall and thru o-ville.

I doubt there's any plans to dredge west of the mall. Aside from the smelly sandbar, navigation is an issue south of the mall. Waterfire has actually had issues with the river being too shallow at lowtide. It gets low enough that even canoeing and kayaking become problematic.

Speaking of the western stretches of the river, the October flooding did a real number on it. Branches and trees along the river are full of debris left by the high water, it's a real mess.

[Lone Ranger]

But who knows, it is Cranston, and if I'm not mistaken their planners think that the Chapel Hill or whatever development at the old training school is a great development...

Chapel something ... View, I think. Anyway, it's not terrible. It's not much, maybe, but it's miles better than a bunch of decrepit buildings standing to rot in a field of weeds.

Yeah, actually, I guess I hafta admit I kinda like that idea. Have you seen the view from there? Those units will sell. When Westin II and 110 are built, that's gonna be an incredible spot to take in a view of downtown Providence.

That was always an area of Cranston I thought they should focus on. There's some free space, and there's lots more traffic capacity on New London Ave. As opposed to, umm, y'know, the rest of the city, which is virtually maxed out on traffic right now. And then too, New London Ave. stands in a direct line between downtown Providence and Rt. 2 in Warwick ... I dunno, I guess that seems to me like something Cranston ought to try to take advantage of.

Edit: but IMO they need to build some kind of pedestrian walkways between Chapel View and Garden City ... now THAT would have some real potential to it.

[Recchia]

There's two enhancement projects possibly in the works to do with Waterplace, one being silt remediation and another being a tide gate to control the tidal flooding that happens in the park every once in a while.

As far as Chapel View, the city did just redo sidewalks and crosswalks all along Sockanosset Road, connecting it pretty well to Garden City. And yes, the views are amazing. I was just hoping for something a little more along the lines of a transit village at the site, instead of it being anchored by a huge box Shaws. Throw in a BRT along Reservoir Ave down to the site and make it a walkable TOD, that was my hope. Instead we have a mixed use (which is good) auto-oriented site. Oh well.

[Lone Ranger]

Heavens, are you suggesting that folks try to cross Sockanosset Crsrd. on foot? That's not gonna fly. For two reasons. First, Sockanosset is a weird road, stuck somewhere between gridlock and an expressway. That would be either very dangerous or very congestive. Second, because Garden City has limited access. I've never liked that for cars, and I like it even less for foot traffic. From the New London/Sockanosset side of GC, you can enter at either end, but nowhere in the middle.

But yeah, people in Chapel View who wanted to walk to GC would have to walk down Sockanosset, cross, and then walk back up Sockanosset to get into GC. And THEN they have to do a good deal more walking once they get into GC, because the truly pedestrian parts of GC (as well as all the restaurants) are located on the opposite end of the complex.

I don't mind walking: I do a lot of it, it's part of my job. But for a bunch of middle-aged types? That's a stretch. I meant that there needs to be a more direct walkway between CV and GC. I don't think crosswalks are gonna help, but maybe that's just me.

[CtownMikey]

What about just building an elevated bridge between the two.. just from one street side to the other

[Lone Ranger]

That was exactly the sorta thing I was thinking of.

And honestly, if things are done right, it really is an area with a lot of potential. Sort of a mini-city within a city, y'know?

I wonder if they'll ever find the space in GC for a condo tower ... shoot, they could even get a little height on it. That would be, for lack of better word, cool.

[RLucas83]

Good article on the commuter rail extension in todays projo

http://www.projo.com/news/content/projo_20...13.870fecb.html

it mentions the state bought 5 double decker commuter rail cars, Id like to see those dedicated to RI and maybe sharing a RIPTA paint and or logo on their trips up to Boston.

[mental757]

reagrding the point about the Cranston-WW rail line being returned to light rail: I couldn't agree more, but now that is has been made into a walking/bike path, I fear the standard issue RI nimbyism will squash any effort to return this corridor to what is it should be used for - rail. I still remember walking the entire line (including the old Washington secondary spur over main street near Mac's bowlawAy) when the trains were still running on this route. Walking the long bridge behind the Bradford Soapworks was an awesome thrill. My dad used to hop on the back of these trains as a kid to get around WW and Coventry instead of riding his bike or walking!

Anyway - like I predicated, look for continued progress (barring any unexpected hiccups) and a groundbreaking on the Warwick "multi-modal" stations in the coming weeks/months.

[Recchia]

When was the bike path ROW (Washington Secondary) proposed for light rail?

If you're referring to what I had mentioned, it was about the Harbor Junction line being looked at (the one down Atwells and then between 95 and the zoo), not the bike path ROW.

[Cotuit]

I was playing with ideas for a new map yesterday while it was snowing. I was looking at the Washington Secondary and I don't really think it's the best place for transit. It passes through a lot of lower density residential areas with little room for added density, and their aren't many large employers along the ROW. Route 2 is a better alignment for transit with denser residential and retail/office nearby, and room to further densify the area (especially near the malls). That coupled with what would surely be an extreme NIMBY backlash (black people from the city taking the train to our neighbourhood!? ) and the fact that the ROW is probably too narrow to accomodate rail and the bikepath through most areas, lead me to think it shouldn't be reinstated. Although, parts of it might be good for BRT segments of the existing bus routes.

LRT either elevated, or seperated into a median on Route 2 would be more ideal.

[DaveRPI]

lets start a cranston/garden city people mover thread! lol

[glassandsteel]

It mentions that once again, there are no plans for weekend service. I suppose it's Bonanza or nothing for a little while longer.

[mental757]

reagrding the point about the Cranston-WW rail line being returned to light rail: I couldn't agree more, but now that is has been made into a walking/bike path, I fear the standard issue RI nimbyism will squash any effort to return this corridor to what is it should be used for - rail. I still remember walking the entire line (including the old Washington secondary spur over main street near Mac's bowlawAy) when the trains were still running on this route. Walking the long bridge behind the Bradford Soapworks was an awesome thrill. My dad used to hop on the back of these trains as a kid to get around WW and Coventry instead of riding his bike or walking!

Anyway - like I predicated, look for continued progress (barring any unexpected hiccups) and a groundbreaking on the Warwick "multi-modal" stations in the coming weeks/months.

Not sure if it was ever planned for washington secondary spur, just thats what they should have left it for. While the bike path is nice and all, I thought it best used for future mass-transit. My main point was that now that its a bike path, you'll never see any form of mass transits on these ROWs. It would have saved a bundle on the cost of ever doing anything with it for mass transit purposes, now they'll have to plow through/over/around all kinds of other things at an astronomical cost.

[brick]

Not sure if it was ever planned for washington secondary spur, just thats what they should have left it for. While the bike path is nice and all, I thought it best used for future mass-transit. My main point was that now that its a bike path, you'll never see any form of mass transits on these ROWs. It would have saved a bundle on the cost of ever doing anything with it for mass transit purposes, now they'll have to plow through/over/around all kinds of other things at an astronomical cost.

Except that going through the areas it goes through, noone would use it. I mean I guess you could have a park and ride at the Lowe's in Cranston or something but other than that I would rather have a bike path that is in use than a LRT that is a money pit because noone pays to use it.