Will Miami remain Fla most impressive city forever?

[poonther]

For me it's an intangible thing about Miami and South FL. You can list and list and list things about both cities (ORL, MIA) but South Florida just has a more Cosmopolitan feel about it from Palm Beach Gardens all the way down to South Dade. Maybe it's that the people are linked more to Latin America, Europe and the Northeast...but to me it's undeniably more cosmopolitan and that has nothing to do w/size either. The same could be said for Santa Fe which is ten times smaller than Albuquerque, but is ten times more cosmo.

This feeling and vibe is subjective, but I never get it when I'm at The Mall at Millenia, DT Orlando or say Park Avenue, but I do get it at Town Centre, Aventura, Las Olas, DT Miami, Bal Harbour etc etc. I also don't get that feeling in ATL either, but the reasons why are a whole other topic.

Here's a small example: When you guys list all the things ORL has like Bloomies, these places...well actually in this case...THE place....feels more like an attraction in ORL like "wow lookie there, it's a fancy Bloomies. Let's go in and say we've been in one." Yes, I think those are more of the small town tourist type, but none-the-less the vibe is there. Whereas in MIA/South FL the Bloomies are just a place to shop and buy clothes and nothing to get excited about.

That is the difference to me and I mean no disrepect to ORL people. And as always YMMV (your mileage my vary.)

P.S. I have lived in both metros and still visit each of them frequently b/c of relatives in both areas and my job.

Question: Of those of you posting on this thread, how many of you have LIVED in both metros as opposed to just the one you live in now and are supporting?

[simms3]

This post is exactly why I don't frequent UP any more. This is how low it's gone. Nobody discusses important issues any more, but everyone sure jumps on the bandwagon to bash eachother and come up with some lame thread titled "will miami always be the most impressive city in in Fl".

[Go Gators]

This post is exactly why I don't frequent UP any more. This is how low it's gone. Nobody discusses important issues any more, but everyone sure jumps on the bandwagon to bash eachother and come up with some lame thread titled "will miami always be the most impressive city in in Fl".

yet you felt you needed to respond to it!

[JRS1]

Noone's bashing anybody here, we're just analyzing the topic which is based on so many factors.

--------

Now, back to the topic.

I agree that Miami is more cosmopolitan than Orlando. But what makes a city more cosmopolitan than another? Diversity in culture coupled with size and exposure? If yes, then yes, Miami is more cosmo.

Lets not forget that Orlando has the largest Puerto Rican population in Florida, and is Banco Popular's Florida HQ. 60,000+ move to Central Fla. annually, and they're mostly from up north. Orlando also has a "Little Vietnam" district, and is home to the 45-50,000 Brits I mentioned earlier. Orlando has also been home to the likes of Tiger Woods and other pros, Carrot Top, other actors, and has had establishments endorsed and/or owned by Ken Griffey, Jr., and Andre Rison; and is home to Lou Pearlman's Intercontinental, which started the likes of the boy bands of the last decade and current stars like Mandy Moore and Nick's little brother, etc... and has had studio and production work done in house at MGM and Nickelodeon since 1990.

Regarding Miami and the cosmo feel, I personally don't get that feeling when I'm in Aventura. South Beach and Bal Harbor and Brickell, yes. That's why Sobe is my favorite beach in the state. Miami is more visibly cosmopolitan b/c Miami-Dade is mostly Latin. But, Hialeah doesn't give me that cosmo feel either, and its totally Latin. Miami-Dade feels way more cosmo than Broward to the north and PB Co. even further north, b/c those counties are more white. Las Olas is cosmo, but Broward Blvd. isn't.

THere's just a lot of established villages and townships in Miami-Dade which carry the rest of the region making it more desireable. Its that way with all major cities: There's pockets of paradise among all the crap (the crap being Carol City, Liberty City, Opa Locka, parts of Hialeah, west Broward (before Plantation), believe it or not, many parts of West Palm Beach, especially where the PB Mall is, and other parts I can't remember right now. Even Sunny Isles was a beach slum and is undergoing a transition, as is Hallandale and Hollywood Beach.

And Orlando is no stranger to slums either, believe me.

Regarding the Bloomie's example; Saks has been here for a decade and the rest have been here for almost 5 years. The novelty of those stores wore off after the first year, and everyone I know shops at Gucci or Bloomie's or Macy's or Neiman's b/c there's stuff that they want that those stores sell; no different than Miami folk. That's my point. Its business as usual in retail up here just like in SoFla. Same goes for the Ferrari/Mazerati dealership in Winter Park: its been here for at least 8 years that I know of; its not a big deal anymore- not that it ever was.

Miami is just Miami, period. Its an exciting place to be.

[poonther]

Good post and points there JRS1. Like I said and you too, it's all subjective, very subjective.

We definitely don't always agree, but you're always polite about it and I've never seen you bash IMO.

But the big question is: can you defend the Appliance Direct and that KISS-A-MEE used car dealer commercials that run all hours of the night in your market? Boy those two advertisement/infomercials are awful and make me run from the room screaming!

Just a quick personal question if you don't mind....how old are you and how long have you lived in ORL? Just asking cause you do know your O-town.

I use to work for the East Central Florida Regional Planning Council, so I'm pretty familiar w/the area too, but you're much better bud.

[bobdreamz]

poonther....I moved from Miami to Orlando 5 months ago and the differences are night & day to me. I love downtown Orlando but the rest of the metro is so suburban in nature that I'm having trouble adjusting here since you have to drive everywhere. Like i said this is subjective but i like Miami's density more...it does have a vibe that isn't replicated here in Orlando....and I will say this but there is something about living here that feels fake to me....please I'm not trying to start a war...these are my personal opinions & I hope you guys can respect them.

[prahaboheme]

South Beach is the only true urban hood in the state of Florida, even the rest of the Miami metro has dismal urbanity despite its density and size.

[JRS1]

Well, the positive spin to the Appliance Direct guy is that he's Asian! Except for his hick partner who really irkes me. The used car dealer-- I think, is the Family Auto Mart guy from Melbourne, but they recently opened shop in Orlando. I can't defend him any more than I can the Sanford Flea Market. But, Miami's got flea markets too (Opa Locka and others).

Yeah, Orlando is no stranger to hick-dom, but like the northerners who claim this state is nothing but hicks, I've been to Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and upstate New York, and I can assure you and them that the hicks in Florida pale in comparison to whats up north.

Miami is a Florida town first. There are Dade County rednecks, believe it or not, but you never see them on I-95 or the turnpike heading into Miami. THey are strategically out of the way in the backwaters.

I've been in Orlando since 1997 and grew up in Daytona- but I'm from up north (Chi-town).

At the end of the day, Miami is just like every other Florida city; its got its share of Wal-Marts, Goodwill's, Salvation Army outlets, and pawn shops. It also has its share of NIMBY's. But its also got the good stuff, which makes it fabulous.

Orlando has turned the corner and has become relevant beyond Disney. But many forget that Orlando was heavily engrossed in the defense industry and still is before Disney ever came to the scene. Also, Embry Riddle Aeronautical U. moved to nearby Daytona decades ago from Miami, and is the Harvard of the skies.

In fact, Daytona has ERAU, Bethune Cookman, NASCAR HQ, LPGA HQ, and Hawaiian Tropic HQ. A lot of people don't know that-- and Daytona is relegated to being nothing more than a redneck, biker, defunct spring break town.

... and was the home to John Travolta at the Spruce Creek fly-in until this past year when the neighborhood association made him leave b/c of his lear jet.

[depechecureguyorl]

Orlando native here and have lived here practically my whole life. My dad was in the Navy when I was a kid, so we did move around a lot until settling back in Orlando. I grew up going to Disney, so Orlando "after Disney" is the only Orlando I know. But, I DO know my history, and JRS1 is correct (I'm surprised he knows so much since only being here since '97...good one!). Orlando lacks downtown height & population density mainly because it wasn't an important industrial/commercial city before the 90's. Jax, IMO, is the only example of a "Northernesque" city in Florida, because it was the ONLY major city in Florida for a long while...Tampa was a close second.

Miami, IMO, was impressive when I first visited (have since been countless times) but now, it's just another Florida city. Yeah, it has skyscrapers, but after the day is over, they're still just buildings. Orlando & Miami are as different as night & day; politically, culturally, and economically. The fact that Orlando DOESN'T look like Miami is just fine for me. I'd prefer Orlando keeping it's own identity. I love visiting Miami, but I just wouldn't want to live there. There is nothing wrong w/Miami, but Orlando is home and probably always will be. Whether or not we become "International", "First/Second Teir", "Cosmopolitan", etc. truly rests in the opinion of others.

[poonther]

Hey gang this is a great thread and it's cool that everyone has been so polite in their posting. I've learned a lot about both cities since I started reading this thread, which is the main reason why I come here...to learn. It seems to me that no matter how great our arguments are for or against a place, most of us will come here w/one idea about these two great cities and we also leave w/those same ideas....so no one's mind is being changed, but again..we are learning different facts....and that is the most important thing. Mainly, I am just glad to find a place and people that can talk about these kind of things in an intelligent, interesting and passionate manner, that to me is the best thing of all. Thanks!

[JRS1]

I just got back from Amsterdam and The Hague. That place is awesome. I hope Florida cities such as Orlando and Miami (the subject cities at hand) can become more like those cities, which seem to have their shiite together. Orlando's on its way, but Miami is further along.

[cameronm]

I just got back from Amsterdam and The Hague. That place is awesome. I hope Florida cities such as Orlando and Miami (the subject cities at hand) can become more like those cities, which seem to have their shiite together. Orlando's on its way, but Miami is further along.

I don't think Orlando will ever become like Amstradam but will probably get half way like uh in the far future

[JRS1]

I don't think Orlando will ever become like Amstradam but will probably get half way like uh in the far future

Well, like I said. Orlando's on its way, by continually building downtown to keep the street level pedestrian friendly; expand the Lymmo dedicated bus lanes; get the commuter rail going; and perhaps get Light Rail going once commuter rail catches on. Amsterdam has buses, Light Rail, Commuter Rail, and a subway (for which a line was U/C). Miami has commuter, heavy, and metromover and a new MIC connecting MIA to the public transit system. Orlando's bid for commuter rail is key. Now, noone said this would happen overnite, but there finally are steps being taken in that direction...

[july555]

Well as far as "impressive cities" in Florida goes, I would have to say that Miami will be on top for at least the next 25 years. The Miami metro has the largest population and is the most prominent commercial hub in Florida. Having been to South America recently, I can say quite clearly that the only city most of the people there know in Flirda is "Miami." As North and South America continue to grow in trade patterns and business overall, Miami will grow and be much like LA, with big ports and a high international presense and possibly a population well over 10 million. As for now, I think the current building boom will level off and stagnate as developers wait for occupancy level to catch up and consumrs wait for prices to stabalize.

Orlando will continue to grow in population and industry. It will become a very important Southern city with a continuing international presence from tourism. I think it will be comparable with what Atlanta is now. I however think the population will level out at about 3.5-4 million within 25 years. The 7 million msa number that I saw earlier seems relatively unprobable. I do not think it will have the high cosomopolitan international flair that Miami has. Furthermore, Orlando's landlocked positon and lack of any significant bodies of water does not help at all and will hinder some of its development.

Tampa will continue to grow, but not at Orlando's pace. Tampa however does have great geography and ports that help propel its metro population to greater than that of Orlando.

I am from Jacksonville and I think Jacksonville is a wild card. Jacksonville in my opinion has the most potential of any city due to its great geography ( ocean and rivers). It is becoming a major tranportation hub due to its railroads, highways (I10 and I 95) and waterways and ports. The CBD is very organized and growing rapidly as well. I think Jacksonville will be the city to watch in the future, like a sleeping giant. Don't get me wrong, there is a great chance Jacksonville will never ignite into a major city, but for now indications suggest that it will possible become a major financial and transporation hub in the Southeast. It will however defintely lack the international attention of Miami and even Oralando. I can the Jax population reach 3-4 million within 25 years. Jacksonville has been the red headed step child of Florda for too long and is only now begining to garner the business and attention needed to make it grow.

Either way, all of Florida will continue to grow and will have 4 major US cities, I think Miami will lead the pack though. (sorry for any misspellings)

[JRS1]

Orlando will continue to grow in population and industry. It will become a very important Southern city with a continuing international presence from tourism. I think it will be comparable with what Atlanta is now. I however think the population will level out at about 3.5-4 million within 25 years. The 7 million msa number that I saw earlier seems relatively unprobable. I do not think it will have the high cosomopolitan international flair that Miami has. Furthermore, Orlando's landlocked positon and lack of any significant bodies of water does not help at all and will hinder some of its development.

--------------

I don't completely agree with this post. With regard to Miami, its the NYC of Florida. No doubt. You may go to South America, but I see millions of South Americans in Orlando during the heavy summer tourist season. There's 60 million tourists coming here per year overall; the busiest tourist city in the world by far. Orlando also has the heaviest Puerto Rican population in FLA and is the location of Banco Popular's FLA HQ last time I checked. South Americans are very familiar with Orlando's name.

Orlando has 2 million now exclusively within the 4-county area of Lake, Seminole, Orange, and Osceola. This does not include the fast growing West Volusia abutting Lake Monroe and Sanford, which adds another 250,000 roughly, bringing it to 2.25M metro. East Polk is also not counted... the area where US 27 and Four Corners, Poinciana, Haines City, which is the fastest growing region. It's been discussed that as Tampa and Orlando continue to grow towards Polk, that realistically Polk, at 600K, will be split in two, based on geography with regards to two metros abutting it. Which means that you add another 250K to ORL metro now for 2.5M. When ORL continues to grow eastward, the TV market will become the metro, and currently that means another 750K people in Brevard and E. Volusia which will be added-- but by then, they would have grown beyond that number, so, today's 3.25M in this 7.5 county region will definitely have over, say, at least 5.5 million (conservative estimate).

As for Tampa, they've always been larger than ORL.

As for Jax, no way will it have 3.5 to 4M in 25 years. It's barely grown in the last 10 years and has been a leading location for corporate back office relocation since the eighties.

As for sleeping giants, that's what ORL has been for the last 40 years and has already awakened this last 15 or so years; moreso recently. THat's 60K new residents per year in the 4-county area. As for landlocked, ORL is already heavily tied into Brevard ala Port Canaveral, and will continue to do so. ORL also has the Vol. Co. beaches as well within 15 miles from the edge of its recognized metro. And Titusville is only 11 miles from the Eastern edge of ORL's built up area near UCF.

Like I said, by the time 25 years rolls around, Volusia and Brevard (1 million people today) will be at least 1.5-2 million, and ORL 4-county at 2 million today will be about 3-3.5 million. Those areas will merge along with maybe 400-500K in East Polk County to bring a total number of 5.5 to 6 million.

[poonther]

^ Somehow I knew that rebuttal was coming and from you JRS1. You forgot to mention the 40 to 50K Brits in O-metro there JRS1 like you usually do.

Just kidding, don't take it too seriously....

[JRS1]

^ Somehow I knew that rebuttal was coming and from you JRS1. You forgot to mention the 40 to 50K Brits in O-metro there JRS1 like you usually do.

Just kidding, don't take it too seriously....

C'mon, Poonther... I mean, with comments like "the only Florida city they know is Miami"... I mean, what, did he take a survey in South America and the only city they listed is Miami?

[july555]

JSR1:

I did not take a survey while in South America. It is just that every single person who asked me where I was from (and it was maybe 50 or so people) all responded by saying "Miami?" when I told them I was from Florida. Contrary to popular belief our planet does not revolve around Disney World. The Orlando msa is not measured by calculating the population of the entire I-4 corridor and Jacksonville is not a haven for backdoor jobs and call centers.

[cwat212]

Fla and Miami are synonymous.

In business I tell people all the time in Southern countries that I am from Tampa, Florida and they still respond with, "oh, your from Miami"......almost 100% of the time.

Orlando obviously has more tourists than Tampa, Miami and Jax but I think to most people from S.A. - Orlando, Tampa, Jax all just blend in....

Mention England and the first thing people think of is London. Same with Fla/Miami

[JRS1]

Fla and Miami are synonymous.

In business I tell people all the time in Southern countries that I am from Tampa, Florida and they still respond with, "oh, your from Miami"......almost 100% of the time.

Orlando obviously has more tourists than Tampa, Miami and Jax but I think to most people from S.A. - Orlando, Tampa, Jax all just blend in....

Mention England and the first thing people think of is London. Same with Fla/Miami

good points.

If you read his whole post, though, its nothing more than a segway into diminishing Orlando's importance in this state and the hemisphere, while trying to elevate Tampa and Jax at the same time, to prove his point. it's somewhat of a response to an earlier post and/or discussion from a few weeks earlier. read the whole thing and you'll see what I mean. and I'm not saying Orlando is better than those two cities, only what his comments were trying to illustrate.

But, to South Americans, there's no way that "Orlando, Tampa, and Jax" just blend in. Why would they? Orlando tourists all fly into either: OIA, or MIA and drive up the Turnpike to Orlando. They don't usually fly into TPA b/c OIA usually has better rates. Everybody knows via advertising that Disney and Universal are in "Orlando", not Tampa, not Jax, and not "some general north Florida area outside of Miami." South Americans are fairly educated people.

Jax:

However, noone ever said anything about Jax as a haven for call centers and backdoor jobs. My point was that Jax was in the limelight back in the late eighties/early nineties b/c of corp. backoffice relocation, and their growth didn't match the "business hype", so to speak. Orlando had no hype of this sort and quietly outgrew jax by a substantial margin, by comparison. And it still is. So, with this in mind, I don't see how ORL will level off in growth while Jax's growth skyrockets instead. It didn't happen back then and why would it happen now?

that was my only point based solely on those trends.

Miami:

With regard to Miami, I'm only making a comment on the point made that the only city's name to come up was "Miami" when asked-- in South America. I disagree with the implication he was trying to make, that the name "orlando" is not known in that hemisphere. I disagree based on the numbers of South American tourists per year. Not to mention that Orlando has the highest Puerto Rican population in Florida and is also home to a rather healthy overall Latin American population, all of which have 1st generational ties to South America, whether its Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela, etc. Between the tourists and relatives, they know Orlando. But there's greater ties with Miami for obvious reasons-- the population, banking, and overal trade coming thru Miami-Dade.

[Charlotteman]

As long as Miami is able to avoid a Katrina-type storm, it will remain Florida's premier city.

I'm still kinda surprised at Miami's success, as I can't see how people can take all that heat and sun! lol

[tombarnes]

Unless sustained urban development of a high quality is built elsewhere in the state, I do not see Miami being eclipsed by any other city in Florida. The growth models in most Floridian cities are far too suburban in character for this to change. I'd certainly welcome the idea of a graceful and elegant Jacksonville or Orlando, but I don't see much more than endless sprawl on the horizon for most of the state UNLESS certain fundamental attitudes about urbanism change in other parts of the state. Miami is far from perfect, but it is further along the road than most other cities in Florida.

[Rwarky]

Will Miami be Fla most respected city forever?

I don't think it matters these days, especially with the high number of people from other states and countries living throughout Florida. Besides there are some things the Miami area needs to work on, such as better driving habits and less abrassiveness.

[sunshine]

It will be difficult for other cities in Florida to catch up on Miami in term of skyline. Amenities wise, Tampa and Jacksonville might be able to do that but those cities lack the huge tourism base that Miami has.

[Dcfilmknight]

I am from LA, but also have a house in Orlando. Orlando has a long, long, long way to go to become an international city such as Miami. You can put all the highrises you want downtown, but Orlando also needs to obtain a level of sophistication (people, industry etc.) it doesn't have yet. Orlando wants to become a huge city, but it's ideals are still "southern" small town.