New Construction and Renovations in the Heartside District

[fotoman311]

Every time I've been there for lunch, I'm usually one of only two tables with people. Don't get me wrong, I love their food and the ability to build my own tacos.

I love the salsa bar. That's definitely my fav. thing about the place. The quesadilla's are really good, too. Plenty to take home for another meal.

They were closed at 8:15 when PedalGR arrived because they changed their hours and their normal closing time is 7pm on weekdays. It wasn't any weird closure. My mistake was not calling ahead and telling them to stay open because I was bringing them 50 hungry bicyclists. They were open when we went last year I had no reason to think that they would have changed their hours.

[egrguy]

Figured this would be the best topic to post on...

There are rumors coming from credible sources of plans for a new Buffalo Wild Wings on Ionia Ave downtown. A single digit address was mentioned (he/she couldn't remember exact number) as was a second story balcony. Multi-floor BW3's are not uncommon in many major cities (like McD's).

My only guess is the former Taphouse at 8 Ionia, which was shuttered a year or two ago. That's gotta be the most prime spot on Ionia (also fronts Fulton I believe) and is already set up as a two-story bar space, although I'd expect BW3 to do a full renovation inside.

It's quite significant that major restaurant/bar chains are not only seriously considering our new "strip", but are actually considering larger-than-normal spaces like one might see in downtown CHI or NYC.

Let's hear it for chains!!

I drove by today and didn't see anything going on... the prior article mentions a goal to get started before football. I know the original plans seemed aggressive but I have not even heard if the topic made it to a discussion for approval for the two-story deck.

Is hoping for a summer 2012 opening out of reach?

[InSecurity]

There is some work or at least something happening inside. Until recently when I walked by and looked in you could see the chairs stacked on the tables but Friday when I walked by they were gone and it looked like there was some minor activity going on inside. I didn't see anything happening on the outside however.

[GRDadof3]

Here are some of the images of the addition. I'm hoping the HPC took exception to the proposal to coat this thing in EIFS.

[jas49503]

what's wrong with EIFS. if they finish it in an appropriate material it would seem like a great idea.

[GRDadof3]

what's wrong with EIFS. if they finish it in an appropriate material it would seem like a great idea.

EIFS usually IS the finished material. The "F" means "Finish." It's horrible junk, that shouldn't even be used in suburban retail construction (even though it is extensively). Since I would assume the old Taps building is in the Heartside district, I'd imagine the HPC will have some say.

[jas49503]

I think you are confused about what EIFS is. it stands for external insulated finishing system. The the outer layer is applied over a mesh by floating and can be any number of finishes. Wikipedia has a very nice description of it. if it looks like crap it is because the builder chose to finish it with crap.

[egrguy]

Thanks for the renderings. I did enjoy the wiki article on EIFS, the google images did not present a good case: Taco Bells, and suburban homes. I hope the finished product looks better.

[joeDowntown]

Interesting question. IS that area in the Heartside historic district? Is Ionia, south of Fulton all in the Historic District, or does it start a block South on Weston?

Joe

[Allison Slater]

EIFS is, as far as I can tell, one of those things that are executed either very poorly or very well. It is easy to take note of the bad cases whereas the good ones go forgotten. As long as it's handled well, it should be fine.

[jas49503]

Thanks for the renderings. I did enjoy the wiki article on EIFS, the google images did not present a good case: Taco Bells, and suburban homes. I hope the finished product looks better.

with enough effort (or lack thereof) you can make almost anything look like crap. why they would use a stucco type finish in that location is beyond me and I don't know what that is next to the black and white border. probably not something that you want to look at though.

[GRDadof3]

I think you are confused about what EIFS is. it stands for external insulated finishing system. The the outer layer is applied over a mesh by floating and can be any number of finishes. Wikipedia has a very nice description of it. if it looks like crap it is because the builder chose to finish it with crap.

I know exactly what EIFS is. Show me an example of a building done in EIFS that looks good after 5 - 10 years. I would assume since the HPC had a problem with how Tavern On The Square applied their brick on the exterior incorrectly, then they would have a problem with a non-masonry addition to a masonry building in an historic district.

Here are some great examples of EIFS (not all are but most):

http://www.google.co...=og&sa=N&tab=wi

Interesting question. IS that area in the Heartside historic district? Is Ionia, south of Fulton all in the Historic District, or does it start a block South on Weston?

Joe

Joe, Heartside includes that block and actually crosses Fulton and includes the Trade Center building:

http://www.ci.grand-...Information.pdf

[andrew.w]

My employer's house (and their neighbor's) have EIFS back facades that were installed around 15-20 years ago, and both are still in good condition. They also used the same treatment on their synagogue in 2004. In both cases the surface was scored in a diamond pattern and painted bold colors - not the traditional suburban strip mall look. I think these are some fairly successful examples of the product.

At the same time I agree that EIFS can lead to real disasters. The Aronoff Center of DAAP at the University of Cincinnati is 15 years old and the EIFS facade has completely failed and will soon be replaced with a metal panel rain screen. Here the EIFS was a result of cost savings and the particular system they used was new and untested. Hence 15 years later, the building is covered in mold and water is seeping through to the inside wherever it can.

In this case, I'm not sure about extending the finish all the way to the sidewalk. There is a reason that most strip malls transition to masonry as the building meets the ground: if hit with enough force the EIFS can dent and chip. But there are much bigger issues of good design at stake with this addition separate of its materials. I think that second floor section over the entrance is going to look awful for one.

Edited August 31, 2011 by andrew.w

[jas49503]

EIFS is a technique. it's like saying tile looks bad. it can, but there is nothing inherent in the technique that makes it bad. only in it's design and execution. and of course strip malls are going to make it look bad. they could be gold plated and they'd still look bad.

the examples you gave didn't need to wait 5-10 years to look bad. they didn't need a day. that's not a problem related to the finish but the design.

EIFS doesn't look appreciably different from Stucco. the only real difference is that the lathe is placed on a layer of foam. you can't tell this from the finished surface. of course if you wouldn't use stucco then you shouldn't use EIFS.

[GRDadof3]

EIFS is a technique. it's like saying tile looks bad. it can, but there is nothing inherent in the technique that makes it bad. only in it's design and execution. and of course strip malls are going to make it look bad. they could be gold plated and they'd still look bad.

the examples you gave didn't need to wait 5-10 years to look bad. they didn't need a day. that's not a problem related to the finish but the design.

EIFS doesn't look appreciably different from Stucco. the only real difference is that the lathe is placed on a layer of foam. you can't tell this from the finished surface. of course if you wouldn't use stucco then you shouldn't use EIFS.

Sure, tile can be a verb (technique). But it's also a noun (finish).

I've seen EIFS on a house in Grand Rapids completely fall off due to water problems. I've seen EIFS look dirty (from rain runoff) in a year. I've seen hotels done in EIFS look 30 years old in 2 years. It's not like stucco, it's plastic stucco, and it's totally out of character as an attachment to that building. Don't you think? It looks horrible.

[joeDowntown]

Interesting on the Historic district. Never knew where the northern boundary was. Does that mean the lot next to the trade center falls in the historic district as well? I'm sure that won't have too much of an impact, I'm just curious.

Joe

[jas49503]

I don't think that stucco is appropriate in that location.

Sure, tile can be a verb (technique). But it's also a noun (finish).

I've seen EIFS on a house in Grand Rapids completely fall off due to water problems. I've seen EIFS look dirty (from rain runoff) in a year. I've seen hotels done in EIFS look 30 years old in 2 years. It's not like stucco, it's plastic stucco, and it's totally out of character as an attachment to that building. Don't you think? It looks horrible.

whether EIFS is good or bad can be debated, I think we both can agree that stucco (EIFS) is not appropriate in that location. there is nothing else like it in the area and it isn't historically correct for when most of those building were built. I think it would look weird grafted onto the side of a brick building.

[GRDadof3]

Interesting on the Historic district. Never knew where the northern boundary was. Does that mean the lot next to the trade center falls in the historic district as well? I'm sure that won't have too much of an impact, I'm just curious.

Joe

Doesn't appear to be according to the map. Although it looks like the Hinman triangle lot is.

[Gorath]

I'd rather see them do it with cast in place concrete then EIFS.

[andrew.w]

I'd rather see them do it with cast in place concrete then EIFS.

cast-in place or precast? Cast in place would still need to be covered with stucco, plaster, or other parging otherwise you would see all of the lines and/or holes from the formwork. Precast would be panelized (have seems) but could be given almost any finish and would probably be more durable long-term than EIFS.

[mpchicago]

I honestly cannot see the Historic Commission approving this addtion in its current state. I say forget the add on, and get this place open!

[GRDadof3]

I honestly cannot see the Historic Commission approving this addtion in its current state. I say forget the add on, and get this place open!

HPC denied them the EIFS on the ground floor.

[jas49503]

why just the first floor. if it's inappropriate for the first then it should also be for the second.

[GRDadof3]

why just the first floor. if it's inappropriate for the first then it should also be for the second.

I think the give different consideration for what pedestrians can see at the ground level, and also the potential abuse of the material by pedestrians.

[joeDowntown]

Do you know what they'll be using on the first floor? Does this mean construction will begin soon?

Joe

I think the give different consideration for what pedestrians can see at the ground level, and also the potential abuse of the material by pedestrians.