Convention Center shortcomings costing Nashville $$$$

[Skyscrapergeek]

If I may point out that the CC would be rectangular along the new Gateway Blvd across Demonbreun from the GEC (visible in the photo as white oval). It would run approximately 3 blocks from fifth to eighth.

At Eighth and Gateway would be a roundabout (proposed) that would also tie-in to the little shortcut to Demonbreun (imagine if you will, a continuation of the diagonal Lafayette street, if it were extended to the northwest beyond its Y intersection (with 8th) and connect with Demonbreun at Cummings Station (adjacent to the Demonbreun viaduct). The proposed roundabout would replace the Y interchange with Lafayette.

I guess you guys can see that I think Nashville needs to do this if it ever wants to be considered a destination city. The current get-up will not (does not) enable that. It's already being left by the wayside. So the big decision is not really whether to build the CC or not. It's actually whether or not the citizens want their city to be on the map for conventions. Without this, it simply won't be considered in the future.

I see that Nashville (for at least the third time), along with the other usual suspects, was invited to bid on the Republican Convention for 08. Without the new CC, this won't even happen the next time around. So it comes down to whether or not the city wants to be a contender for these types of conventions. I think that a solid marketing campaign can sell this point to the voters.

I'm a big believer in the draw of a good convention center, but I understand that it is at minimum a loss leader. By this, I mean that the direct revenue (as quantified) may not cover the debt service. This is where the hotel taxes (or similar facility) brings in the additional revenue to pay down the bonds (assuming the typical financing avenues are done here).

BTW: Atlanta's CC has been a money maker from the word GO. It's well managed. So good luck, Nashville.

Thanks for the incouragement ATL. We are going to need it. And I thought the process for passing the baseball stadium was painfully slow. I believe Nashville needs a new CC. I'm just a bit unsure of the proper way to fund it. The existing CC was definitely shortsighted in both size and location.

[Lukin]

Honestly, I kind of agree with doorman on this issue. I just don't see a completely new convention center as a reality. Remember how hard it was to get the sounds stadium passed? And that was over what? Like 40 million (I may be completely off on this one...) that would eventually be paid back...Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree that Nashville needs one - and it needs to stay in downtown. I just don't think any mayoral candidate is going to through his support behind this and get elected...and I don't think Purcell has the politcal support left to push this through before he leaves. Nashville citizens aren't going to want to support something like a convention center (something that many of them will never even go inside...unlike a stadium which everyone can particapate in, a convention center is mostly for people outside the city - and is something that the normal citizen won't have any contact with) if it means any increase in taxes.

Unless the committee really has found a way to do this without raising taxes I don't see it as a reality.

[jice]

Nashville citizens aren't going to want to support something like a convention center (something that many of them will never even go inside...unlike a stadium which everyone can particapate in, a convention center is mostly for people outside the city - and is something that the normal citizen won't have any contact with) if it means any increase in taxes.

It may be a hard sell... but I think it can be sold to the public, imo. If they just look at the bigger picture of what could come out of it... depending on how the city decides to spend money made off the increase in tourism. Such as improved roads, new parks, maybe eventually a subway/lrt system? Not to mention the new variety of restaurants and entertainment venues that would probably come in. Maybe i'm going out on a limb here and being overly enthusiastic lol... I dunno. I just think, kinda like what ATL was sayin, its something that Nashville needs in order to propel itself into the future.

[smeagolsfree]

I thought this would be a great place to post this article that Nashville has been invited to bid on the 2008 Republican Convention. I thought this was a joke but its for real. I dont think we have much hope in getting this because of the limited resources and space in Nashville.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...S0201/602160411

[southsideJ]

If Nashville is going to be the kind of city that I think we would all envision, then soon or later there will be a very large publicly funded project that gets approved. It seems like the city is moving in the direction of a new CC, and to me this seems like the next natural step in the evolution of dt. It has been on the collective mind of the city for a while now.

I want to see the city thrive and be full of residents and tourists and people in general. As long as this is done right--planning, financing, etc. then I think it would be a positive.

State politics has been affected by the anti-tax faction in the recent past--the city of Nashville has not--at least until recently on the vote to fund eduation w/a tax increase. I don't want to start a huge thing here, but if the anti-tax people get involved in Nashville politics nothing will ever get built again--b/c things like tax breaks and incentives are necessary in that realm, and people like Steve Gill just don't have an understanding for that process. These people are scared of TIF financing for crying out loud!

[ATLBrain]

I thought this would be a great place to post this article that Nashville has been invited to bid on the 2008 Republican Convention. I thought this was a joke but its for real. I dont think we have much hope in getting this because of the limited resources and space in Nashville.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...S0201/602160411

Yeah... it's kinda crazy that so many cities are "invited" to bid. Although, many like Nashville, are Democrat towns. So they're probably not going to get much consideration. However, NYC (emotional choice in 2004) was chosen.

My money's on a Florida city for many reasons... Orlando or Tampa. Has Jax been "invited"? It'd be an interesting choice. A long shot would be New Orleans but I don't see that happening for many reasons. Not least of them is the fact that I think the GOP has seen the damage to their reputation in that city is beyond repair. Besides, it always has been a solid location for Democrats.

[memphian]

A new CC would keep Nashville on the radar of meeting planners. Outside of that this could potentially add traffic to BNA which would be awesome. On top of that - conventioneers add foot traffic to downtown and some people just may like what they see (Viridian, Signature Tower, The Gulch and even make their way on into West End).

It comes to a point where a city like Nashville is at a fork in the road... Nashville can go with a new CC and reap the benefits (and we know they are there) or it can not build a new CC and just see what happens. But to put it into a little more perspective: You don't see too many Pinto's on the road anymore.

[Kheldane]

Nashville can go with a new CC and reap the benefits or it can not build a new CC and just see what happens.

I like this ultimatum! I vote "just see what happens". This calls for a quote:

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty"

-Thomas Jefferson

Basically it means that people who are afraid to leave society's development up to chance (something inherent in the concept of a free society) will advocate state ownership and central government planning to guide the develpment of society and the economy. Years after this quote, in the early 1900's, economist Ludwig von Mises would first put forth the theory of why central planning always fails in his treatise Human Action, wherein he explains that all economic desicions (in terms of operating state owned businesses) made by governments will necessarily be money loosers (if not in fact, then at least compared to a similar private firm) due to the limitations placed on their market knowledge. This point (about market knowledge) is often overlooked by people who think it's possible for the government to ever create a profitable business. In a free market (for example), every citizen in nashville is free to build their own convention center (or invest in the share of one built by someone else) and they make their decision to invest or not invest based on all of the market information available to them. A government, on the otherhand, only makes it's decision based on the members of one council or planning board, so simply as a result of the laws of physics, the amount of market knowlege they have is drastically less than the collective market knowledge of every citizen in davidson county. Assuming a convention center could be built by any company in the US or even the World, then the contrast becomes even greater: Up to this point right now on 2/16/2006 at 4:05 PM, no corporation or group of investors in the world has decided that building a mega-convention center in nashville would be a good business idea. The fact that the proposed center would be built with confiscated taxes is sufficient evidence to prove that building such a structure is contrary to the collective economic decisions made by nashvillians. So I will reference you to scroll up and review the Jefferson quote once more and realise that nashville's private investors have already decided to "see what happens". If restaurants and hotels think a convention center is so vital, don't you think they would rally together to build one? The fact that they haven't done this means that they either don't think they need a new center, or that they think a new center would be a money-loser, or if they didn't have the funds, it means investors and banks are not willing to loan a hotel-restaurant consortium the money to build one because the investors and banks think it will be a money looser.

[barakat]

The construction of a new convention center in the proposed location would almost garuntee completion of Gateway Blvd to 8th Avenue. It seems that would be the most logical solution for the large influx of convention traffic to that area. Plus all the possibilities for new construction spawned by the boulevard itself would be a huge bonus for the city.

I'm impressed by Austin's new convention center and adjacent Hilton; Architecturally I think it would make an ideal model for whatever is built here.

http://www.austinconventioncenter.com/

[jice]

I'm impressed by Austin's new convention center and adjacent Hilton; Architecturally I think it would make an ideal model for whatever is built here.

http://www.austinconventioncenter.com/

Nice... and Austin is roughly the size of Nashville....

http://www.austinchamber.org/LiveWork/Aust...ickfacts.html#2

http://www.nashvilleareainfo.com/default.a...Page=Population

Anybody know how successful the Austin center is?

[smeagolsfree]

Here is the CC report from the Tennessean today.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS05/602170419

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/602170420

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/602170425

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...S0202/602170427

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS05/602170422

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS05/602170426

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/602170423

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS05/602170424

This is the actual report:

http://tennessean.com/assets/pdf/DN19554217.PDF

Sorry about all the links but there is a lot of material here.

[rocky top buzz]

Most big cities are democratic strongholds, while the majority of their suburbs with larger populations are republicans, so both the Democrat and Republican conventions go wherever will give them the best deal.

I wish Nashville had gotten the 2000 convention; would have made it all the more sweet when Al Gore's home state wouldn'teven elect him as el presidente!

This has nothing to do with the convention center per se, but why is that an issue for us getting a political party convention? Everytyhing is going to have to take place in the GEC anyway!

[jice]

Maybe this is just way out in left field... or has already been shot down... or something. But would there be any way they could build a portion of a new center at the site being discussed, south of Broadway. But.. still keep the current center, and convert it to ballrooms, meeting rooms, etc.? Build the new column-free exhibition hall in SoBro, and convert NCC into other stuff. Then connect the two, along with the GEC, into one big convention complex or something... either underground or above ground. I think it would be pretty awesome to have some kinda covered bridge over Broadway! Kinda like they have in Las Vegas. But anyway, the old center could be kept and the Renaissance wouldn't be affected (as much)... as well as the other hotels & restaurants to the north that would be further away from a new center. Not to mention... the city could hold onto the site in SoBro for future expansion.

I could be way off on this lol... and maybe it's already been discussed, who knows. But I thought i'd throw it out there.

[linclink]

I think thats a great idea... I too had been thinking that they should keep the old center meeting rooms, and smaller ballrooms (for smaller conventions), etc... but I hadn't thought of connecting them underground, or with a cool bridge/walkway... I think thats a great idea.. AND much more affordable. Plus it would be nicer, in my opinion to have something that is a little spread out, where one could walk from one place to another and be out in the open, and really feel the fiber of the town.. I like that alot more than one 5 block monstrosity of a convention center.... Good idea Jice

[sleepy]

. . . large religious groups like the Passion Group and Promise Keepers do NOT spend money! They get hotel rates below $50 per room, and they eat at McDonalds and Subway. They are NOT spending money like smaller more economically strong groups do, and they do not tip!

Bellman, Doorman, Valets, Servers, Waiters etc... NEVER make money on the groups the Tennessean reported were not coming back.

Memphis has a similar problem with the annual Church of God in Christ (COGIC) convention. It attracts 50,000 conventioneers, who all get super-low hotel rates, don't tip, eat in their rooms, and wouldn't be caught dead in a bar on Beale Street.

I stayed in downtown Memphis last June at the Sleep Inn at Court Square (btw-a wonderful little inexpensive hotel). As I was checking in, the desk lady was having a phone conversation hassling with a COGIC conventioneer who was saying he shouldn't have to put down a deposit for his reservation or they'd take their business to Atlanta.

The lady was, of course, very polite on the telephone, but after she got off I teased her saying I too wanted the COGIC rate ($50 for 4 in a room; my rate was $90 for one). She glared at me a bit then laughed, and said COGIC had threatened to go to Atlanta for years unless Memphis built more hotel rooms for them--and that wasn't going to happen.

Of course, COGIC owns the old Chisca Hotel and surrounding property, so they could rehab/build anything they wanted. But they'd go broke servicing their own members.

Well, I've rambled on long enough--just an interesting similarity between Memphis' and Nashville's experience with religious conventions.

[smeagolsfree]

This was discussed in some of the articles above and there was talk that they would keep the old site as well. Who knows though, there could be a buyer for the old center if the price is right. that would be a great place for a downtown shopping mall.

[smeagolsfree]

After pretty much reading the CC proposal and hearing news reports about the CC on TV, I think that this will get past the city council. The committee has done an excellent job with this report. They consensus form the council leaders is that they support the new CC. If this is not done then Nashville's growth to a tier 1 city will be stunted. I have reserved major comment on this until I looked at the report. I know some of you are in opposition to this project and there will be some in the public that will want to be heard, but if this is not done then schools will suffer along with the tax base of the county. Many of us who do not live in Davidson do not have a financial stake in this but I support the proposal because it will not only be good for Davidson County, but all the surrounding Cities and Counties as well because of overflow from hotels, restaurants, retail etc.

Lets wait and see what the council does, but I think this will pass because it is an investment in the future of Nashville.

[doormanpoet]

William and I discussed this at length. I do want a better facility, but we both agreed a higher motel/hotel tax and other "Tourist" taxes won't be enough. (Actually, the hotel/motel taxes support infrastructure and city services toutists use when visiting the city.)

The city will have to issue municipal bonds and sell them on Wall Street with hopefully an "A" or "B" rating. Anything lower than that may be disaterous. The city has to be able to pay that money back, with interest to the bond holders. If the city cannot, then we are in trouble.

David Manning, Mayor Purcell, David Briley and others need to really crunch the numbers on this one. We don't need to bankrupt the city for $455,000,000.

Are there enough "big" conventions that we can pull away from tier one cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas etc?

[it's just dave]

I've gone through the entire 140-page report and still am undecided if this is something we really need to quantify our position in the league of "great" cities. We're already in the league of cities with distinct personalities which will continue to be a great and getting greater place to live regardless of whether we choose to commit a half-billion dollars to the "Center."

When I was downtown the other night, practically the entire downtown was alive with activity. People were on the streets, locals, tourists and meeting attendees...all the night BEFORE the study came out. Years before the Center would come online. We're doing just fine as a community and right now, we're doing it all without a $455 million hole in our pockets.

I say this on the eve of having to write that large check for property taxes which have almost doubled since buying my house 8 years ago. I've read the revenue stream projections for the Center, but am somewhat skeptical about these "suggestions." I just still don't know. It will take a lot of work to pull this off.

Paring this down from a huge convention center study to a more personal comparison, I have to look at it in a way I've stated before. Sure, my credit would allow me a plasma tv, a swimming pool, a state-of-the-art kitchen, a new car...but those wouldn't be "gifts." Those would be things I would eventually have to pay for by doing withOUT other things that make me happy. I have a tv, a kitchen with a new stove, a truck, a toy car, great yard and virtually no debt and it's comforting to me to have reached this position. If I was a rich man, it wouldn't matter, bring on the toys, non-stop. But I have to look at the big picture in personal finance. There are things I can have, or there's a level of comfort and self-assurance that I can continue my pleasant little life without the wolves knocking on my door looking for my money. There's not much money, but there are no wolves, either. And life goes on.

On one hand a really cool looking, multi-function, shining star of a convention center would be a great thing. On the other, we may end up being strapped beyond the point where we can continue to do the little things that make Nashville such a great place to live. Hopefully, the studies are close to being right and this won't cost us, the people, much. I look forward to more study.

I also have a problem with eating up so much of SoBro, which is just now beginning to show signs of what it can be. I suppose there's plenty of land and I'm sure I'd be okay with the final result IF the designs and sensitivity to scale, streetscape, mixed uses and such are done well. I think one of the advantages that we have is that there are literally thousands of people in this city that would insist upon such sensitivity and lately, it sure seems to make a difference. Maybe we're lucky that we're behind in some things. Instead of just building for building's sake, we build with the community in mind. I'm proud of that.

All in all, it boils down to the money. Nashville will continue to thrive. If it means we have smaller conventions (we still have more convention attendees than some of these cities with their fancy new white elephant convention facilities), then so be it. If we can build this thing without breaking the bank or the backs of our citizens, even better.

I look forward to the much needed discussions to follow. We have all the reasons in the world to be proud of our city and we don't absolutely need this to feel good about ourselves. I'd like to think we're bigger than that.

[smeagolsfree]

Here is the reaction of some of the council members and more coverage from the Tennessean today.

Saturday, 18 February 2006

Mayor: More talk, more study

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS05/602180325

Final recommendations of Music City Center committee

http://www.tennessean.com/assets/pdf/DN19702218.PDF

[Guest]

I have stayed on the sidelines of this debate trying to get a general feel from the board. There seems to be four schools of thought at this point (warning generalizations coming);

(1) A new CC is required to keep Nashville convention and tourism sector growing

(2) A new CC would be nice BUT can we afford it

(3) The existing CC is just fine; Nashville can better use revenue in other ways

(4) Kheldane

The new CC is a must have under the following circumstances:

1) The funding package is vetted by an independent panel so as to minimize exposure to tax base of Metro Nashville.

2) The SoBro location is accepted by the Nashville Civic Design Center (NCDC) and they have ample input on overall design to minimize the impact of such a large footprint on this emerging district.

3) A viable revenue generating master plan for the old (existing) CC. I find this to be a major shortcoming to the report. (Note: I have not personally read the entire document so if this is included please post details) To me this could potentially be a way to pay down a substantial part of the new CC debt and generate an exciting new development in the heart of the city. Some of my ideas are outdoor mall, a mixed-use complex of shops, offices, condos, or my favorite a d

[it's just dave]

I agree with your analysis, nb, and I really hope we can pull this off in an intelligent, beneficial to the city way.

The existing facility is being studied for re-use with the intention of doing just what you suggested, paying off a chunk of new center debt. Hopefully, something good will become of this building/space. With the ongoing revamp of the downtown TSU campus, I don't know if a university presence would happen, but a truly mixed-use restructuring would seem to work well.

I'm definately leaning on the intelligent pursuit of the right way to do this.

[FutureArchitect]

I really don

[doormanpoet]

That has been proposed before.

[cheeriokid61]

I really wish they would consider building it on the site next to the Titans stadium where all the scrap metal is. That