Links of Fayetteville

[itk]

It seems to me that the whole argument 'rents at other apartments may go up' is just absured. I'm no economic analyst, but even on the surface that may seem like a reasonable point, in reality I have to think that the market would just be fine one way or another. Lindsey would just build apartments somewhere else.

On the other hand, the whole argument about traffic issues I think is equally absured. With development comes traffic. With higher density development comes heavier traffic. Just like Ruskin Heights-- sure, it will add traffic to an overburden road network, but that argument alone is just so played.

I'm curious about those that don't like it-- if it was smaller, would you be fine with it, all else being the same? I can see both sides of the argument. Sure, the site layout could be better... I support new urbanism principles as a transportation planning engineer, but I'm also a realist (I should point out that, as I have noted previously on this board, I'm no fan of Lindsey apartments whatsoever either).

Also, I've always wondered how many more golf courses (9 or 18 hole) can a town of ~70,000 support. Fayetteville already has 4 18-holers, and 1 9-holer. Not including the one in Farmington or the one in Johnson.

[cocothief]

It seems to me that the whole argument 'rents at other apartments may go up' is just absured. I'm no economic analyst, but even on the surface that may seem like a reasonable point, in reality I have to think that the market would just be fine one way or another. Lindsey would just build apartments somewhere else.

On the other hand, the whole argument about traffic issues I think is equally absured. With development comes traffic. With higher density development comes heavier traffic. Just like Ruskin Heights-- sure, it will add traffic to an overburden road network, but that argument alone is just so played.

I'm curious about those that don't like it-- if it was smaller, would you be fine with it, all else being the same? I can see both sides of the argument. Sure, the site layout could be better... I support new urbanism principles as a transportation planning engineer, but I'm also a realist (I should point out that, as I have noted previously on this board, I'm no fan of Lindsey apartments whatsoever either).

Also, I've always wondered how many more golf courses (9 or 18 hole) can a town of ~70,000 support. Fayetteville already has 4 18-holers, and 1 9-holer. Not including the one in Farmington or the one in Johnson.

[cowbreath]

It's just amazing no one has competed against him. It's a nice little deal I guess for the good ol' boys.

[Mith242]

Apparently he has hired a firm to do the design for this one.

Obviously creativity is not Lindsey's strongest suit as we have multiple monuments to his lack of creativity standing all over NWA.

I can't help but get the feeling that there is a heavy political hand at play when Lindsey is developing a project.

Members of the council appear very willing and ready to appease Mr. Lindsey, while they seemed downright hostile to Ruskin Heights ( a far superior project ) at times.

I also didn't like the way thinly veiled threats were tossed about by the pro-Lindsey side.

"Rents will go up if this project doesn't go through.." etc. etc. et al. Another speaker questioned whether NU would even be being practiced 20 years down the road and basically dismissed good planning as a "fad".

Given that they could have denied it last night, my bet is this will go through.

Its better than another Greens, but its not hugely better, and its much, much larger.

Lets bear this in mind in the future when we get impatient with other developers like Nock and House and others. Although they don't have the ability to "crank out" projects at the speed we would like, its apparent that they CARE about improving Fayetteville. Other developers seem only interested in making a quick buck.

[Mith242]

Maybe it was just me, but the way Lindsey said "rents will go up" sounded to me like he wanted to say that he would be "forced" to raise rents because his apartments are at or near capacity. Surely they are doing well, otherwise why would he want 1100 more units? Still, everybody knows he could impact the rental market in a big way if he wanted to. As it stands, he probably helps keep rents low in Fayetteville by using his mass-produced business model. As a resident of Fayetteville, I don't have a problem with higher rents overall. I don't think we need to be competing with Springdale in the "low rent" arena, but I am biased because I am established here.

There were several comments made by the pro-Lindsey side which were just ridiculous. Another one I forgot to mention was one guy saying "Mr. Lindsey builds what are the finest rentals in the country". Seriously? Has this guy even been anywhere outside of Northwest Arkansas? They might be some of the nicest rentals in the state of Arkansas, but they would be considered lower to low end apartments in any larger metro in the nation.

I think if it was smaller, I wouldn't mind it so much. From the beginning, my biggest complaint is the sheer size of it. I think rentals should be spread out around town if possible, just to prevent the effect of creating a renter's ghetto. Not saying all renters are ghetto, but history dictates that this type of apartment complex declines over time. A HUGE apartment complex like this is bound to set the tone for a large segment of the surrounding area of the community, whereas a smaller rental portion, even if it does decline, isn't going to drag the rest of the area down with it. Why anyone would be FOR this thing being built next door to them is beyond me.

The biggest thing I took from the city staff's comments was not that they were completely set on this thing being a completely mixed use development, but that their primary concern was the lack of connectivity with surrounding areas. The project is a "complex" and doesn't flow with any of the rest of the planned development in the area. One of the biggest points of contention was the city staff's recommendation that more streets be incorporated into the plan which would serve to connect the apartment units to the neighborhood. This doesn't sound unreasonable to me. It is a little bit of outside the box thinking when it comes to apartments in NWA, but I think its a great idea. It will integrate the complex with the rest of the neighborhood, which will minimize the impact of its size and help traffic flow, etc.

In the current incarnation of these plans, the NU elements are just window dressing. Its almost as if Lindsey can't grasp (or doesn't care) what the city is trying to accomplish with the City Plan. I think that if Lindsey would budge on his stance against having more of a grid-friendly street set-up, the planning commission's recommendation might change.

[masons_dad1]

Yeah, while I don't want to make Fayetteville a place for only the rich can afford to live here, I don't see why it would be too bad to also have some nicer more expensive areas if that means nicer things will be built. If Lindsey could make a buck off of it he can put together some refrigerator boxes to keep rental prices low enough.

Yeah that comment about he having finest rentals is a laugh. I don't even think I'd make that statement for Arkansas either.

Aporkalypse has pointed this out quite a bit. If you go in and build cheap apartments it will only turn into a lousy run down area in the near future.

[mcheiss]

I live in Lost Springs Apartments in Rogers and, while cheaply built and having cheap rent, they are far from run down. Of course if you take away all the beautiful trees, landscaping, fishing ponds, sand volleyball and tennis courts you'd have a typical Lindsey apartment complex. The rent is the cheapest anywhere without being those "moderate income" apartments. Lost Springs may be an exception because it's attached to Lost Springs Country Club. I may be ready to upgrade to a more expensive apartment complex next year if I can't find a resaonably priced house anywhere.

[bagelw]

I forget what the name of it is, but there's a real nice apartment complex off Walnut near the Arkansas National Bank and Sherwin Williams. You may want to try there, I've heard rent isn't that bad.

[strmchsr77]

Well, the Links have finally made it through the City Council. They passed last night with only 2 council members voting no. I should not have to tell you who the no votes came from. The same people that give no votes to every project, Kyle Cook and Nancy Allen. They said that this project did not fit into the city's 2025 plan of traditional neighborhoods. What they don't seem to understand is that no everyone can afford to live in that style of development. How do these people ever get elected?

Anyway here is a link to the story from the NWA Times: The Links Get Approved

[CellarDoor135]

This is very dissapointing. Another incident of the city being strong armed by Lindsey. This is yet another gigantic Lindsey apartment complex that nobody in Fayetteville wants or likes. And another future ghetto for the area. Sure it's great that his apartments are cheap but let's not forget who really wins in this situation- Lindsey who will be the one reaping huge profits off of his slums. This is NOT a good thing, cheaper housing can be attained in many different ways, it doesnt have to be a mass production of the same cheap apartment around a ridiculous golf course.

[strmchsr77]

This is very dissapointing. Another incident of the city being strong armed by Lindsey. This is yet another gigantic Lindsey apartment complex that nobody in Fayetteville wants or likes. And another future ghetto for the area. Sure it's great that his apartments are cheap but let's not forget who really wins in this situation- Lindsey who will be the one reaping huge profits off of his slums. This is NOT a good thing, cheaper housing can be attained in many different ways, it doesnt have to be a mass production of the same cheap apartment around a ridiculous golf course.

[cocothief]

I don't know that the city was strong armed by Lindsey. It seems more like he had to basically do whatever the city wanted him to do to get this development approved. I am not sure how many times it had to come back after he made modifications but it was probably around 6 or 7 times at least. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this developmet looks when it is complete.

[strmchsr77]

Nah. No way. Lindsey's changes to the project are just window-dressing. He did not address the functional aspects of the project that would make it fit into the 2025 plan.

The city planning staff did NOT try to make Lindsey create some kind of exclusive new urbanist project.

The city staff and planning commission only asked that he make more connectivity to the surrounding areas, and a greater diversity of buildings.

I think he added one street? (which he will probably add speed bumps to) And threw some commercial buildings up on the outside of the project along Rupple (which would have become commercial properties anyway) which are in no way connected to the rest of the project. In fact, the commercial properties are separated from the residential by a "golf course lake" (detention pond).

The council approved yet another gated, garden-style apartment complex. A HUGE APARTMENT COMPLEX. The biggest in the city. That's all it is, and thats all it will ever be.

See Southern View Town Center's attempt at NU, and its complete inability to connect to the neighboring apartment community in any way shape or form and you will see why this is not a good thing.

Lindsey's resistance to the changes requested were lubricated and enabled by a city council which bows to the politics of $. They're afraid of making enemies with Lindsey because of the political implications it may have for them in the future. That is my opinion.

We'll be ok, but don't act like there's anything fundamentally different about this project than other Lindsey projects.

City staff and planning commissioners should be upset. They're time is routinely completely wasted by this city council.

I give it 15 years and it will be a gated ghetto. (on a golf course, yay!)

[Mith242]

I think I have to agree with cocothief on this one. If it was a smaller development I wouldn't be as concerned about it. As mentioned it's basically a big apartment complex. Maybe Lindsey will actually make it a nice apartment complex but considering his past record I'm not holding my breath. The 'public greenspace' is a golf course. I don't think that's what people envision as public greenspace. I agree with cocothief in that it seems like Lindsey made very small concessions that didn't amount to much to get this approved. Maybe this development will end up turning out better than what I expect, but somehow I don't think I'm going to be pleasantly surprised.

[cocothief]

All very good points, but the city should not try and make every project into a NU. That style of development is expensive to build and not everyone likes it. If they want affordable housing, then it is going to come in the form of apartments, or small rowhouses/townhomes on very small lots. Land and construction prices in out area have gone up too much for decent affordable housing.

[cowbreath]

Yeah, it is disheartening to see something like connectivity refused by a developer in our city and have it approved. I think Fayetteville has enough bad examples of connectivity to go on for this thing to be rejected. Unfortunately with this project ago, it'll probably be built tomorrow and further discourage the other major new urbanism projects not named Ruskin to not be built.

Anyways, it is good to see so many people are as angry about it as I am. For once Kyle Cook and Nancy Allen appear in my favorites column. I do think that the project doesn't clash with the council's view of affordable housing. They do believe it should be low 100's as I do believe also. It is unrealistic in the eyes of the city staff, but I think with our median family income we are pricing out most single people and below-average income families pretty handily. That being said, I am NOT so desperate to EVER want another Lindsey development in this city again (even ifthey are the only "affordable" housing alternative machine). Be aware because I think he is slowly taking over NWA with property expansion and development aspirations. That's just my doomsday prediction.

Apparently "affordable housing" has amazing amount of power in our day of political whitewash.

[masons_dad1]

I don't know that the city was strong armed by Lindsey. It seems more like he had to basically do whatever the city wanted him to do to get this development approved. I am not sure how many times it had to come back after he made modifications but it was probably around 6 or 7 times at least. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this developmet looks when it is complete.

[cowbreath]

I agree. I think Lindsey's main opposition is his reputation alone. If he went through all the trouble of appeasing the city then I'm confident that Lindsey believes the new Fayetteville Links will be better than anything he's built before. I guess the city agrees. It's also nice to know that there are still people who believe in affordable housing in a metro that's in such an "upscale" frenzy.

[bagelw]

So does this mean a final plan has been released? Everyone keeps talking about connectivity to the surrounding area but I'm not sure what that means. There's not that much to really connect to other than the Walnut Grove neighborhood to the east, Wedington, and Rupple to the west. Will this complex stretch all the way to Porter(or Mt Comfort, whatever the road to the north is)?

[cocothief]

I don't get it..............

The city staff did make SOME recommendations that a person could interpret as being more "upscale" or whatever.

Did anyone on this board attend or watch any of the meetings? I watched them all.

Lindsey didn't do really anything with this project other than make some minor aesthetic adjustments.

That wasn't the main point from city staff.

As for there being "nothing for this development to connect to",well duh. Its greenfield. the point is, when there IS development for this project to connect to, it won't. It will remain its own pod of gated development, shut off from the rest of the city. See Southern View and its inability to connect to the apartments behind it for a GLARING LOCAL EXAMPLE.

THIS IS A BIG PART OF WHAT CITY PLAN 2025 TRIES TO AVOID. IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT UPSCALE, OR NEW URBANIST MIXED USE UPSCALE APARTMENTS. IT IS MUCH MORE ABOUT CONNECTIVITY AND A WALKABLE ENRVIRONMENT OF REAL NEIGHBORHOODS RATHER THAN PODS OF DEVELOPMENT ACCESSIBLE ONLY BY AUTOMOBILE.

Jeez... Now I am starting to understand why this project was approved without staff's recommendations being looked at seriously. Hardly any of the forumers here can even grasp what the planning commission's reservations were about.

CONNECTIVITY AND WALKABILITY AND AFFORDABILTY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Lindsey didn't try.

If y'all can't get it, a group of mostly urban development minded individuals, I see now why the half-awake city council didn't get it.

There are ways of building apartments without buldozing an area, building a wall or a fence, putting in speed bumps, and cloning 4-plex pods in a parking lot full of Bradford Pears and holly bushes.

If you haven't been outside NWA much you might not be aware of this.

Me and Jeremy Pate now need to get a beer.....

[Mith242]

I admit I only saw a little of the meetings. I wonder if a little bit of the problem is that people want NU but are still having a hard time envisioning it. I'm talking about the average citizen, not neccessarily the forumers here. Or if it's the fact people want NU but aren't actually ready to do everything that's needed to really go that direction. People like the idea making areas more pedestrian friendly until they realize that might make it not as easy to travel around in your vehicle. Maybe it's a bit like NIMBYism. They want NU as long as it doesn't affect their lifestyle directly.

[cowbreath]

I don't get it..............

The city staff did make SOME recommendations that a person could interpret as being more "upscale" or whatever.

Did anyone on this board attend or watch any of the meetings? I watched them all.

Lindsey didn't do really anything with this project other than make some minor aesthetic adjustments.

That wasn't the main point from city staff.

As for there being "nothing for this development to connect to",well duh. Its greenfield. the point is, when there IS development for this project to connect to, it won't. It will remain its own pod of gated development, shut off from the rest of the city. See Southern View and its inability to connect to the apartments behind it for a GLARING LOCAL EXAMPLE.

THIS IS A BIG PART OF WHAT CITY PLAN 2025 TRIES TO AVOID. IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT UPSCALE, OR NEW URBANIST MIXED USE UPSCALE APARTMENTS. IT IS MUCH MORE ABOUT CONNECTIVITY AND A WALKABLE ENRVIRONMENT OF REAL NEIGHBORHOODS RATHER THAN PODS OF DEVELOPMENT ACCESSIBLE ONLY BY AUTOMOBILE.

Jeez... Now I am starting to understand why this project was approved without staff's recommendations being looked at seriously. Hardly any of the forumers here can even grasp what the planning commission's reservations were about.

CONNECTIVITY AND WALKABILITY AND AFFORDABILTY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Lindsey didn't try.

If y'all can't get it, a group of mostly urban development minded individuals, I see now why the half-awake city council didn't get it.

There are ways of building apartments without buldozing an area, building a wall or a fence, putting in speed bumps, and cloning 4-plex pods in a parking lot full of Bradford Pears and holly bushes.

If you haven't been outside NWA much you might not be aware of this.

Me and Jeremy Pate now need to get a beer.....

[mzweig]

I don't get it..............

The city staff did make SOME recommendations that a person could interpret as being more "upscale" or whatever.

Did anyone on this board attend or watch any of the meetings? I watched them all.

Lindsey didn't do really anything with this project other than make some minor aesthetic adjustments.

That wasn't the main point from city staff.

As for there being "nothing for this development to connect to",well duh. Its greenfield. the point is, when there IS development for this project to connect to, it won't. It will remain its own pod of gated development, shut off from the rest of the city. See Southern View and its inability to connect to the apartments behind it for a GLARING LOCAL EXAMPLE.

THIS IS A BIG PART OF WHAT CITY PLAN 2025 TRIES TO AVOID. IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT UPSCALE, OR NEW URBANIST MIXED USE UPSCALE APARTMENTS. IT IS MUCH MORE ABOUT CONNECTIVITY AND A WALKABLE ENRVIRONMENT OF REAL NEIGHBORHOODS RATHER THAN PODS OF DEVELOPMENT ACCESSIBLE ONLY BY AUTOMOBILE.

Jeez... Now I am starting to understand why this project was approved without staff's recommendations being looked at seriously. Hardly any of the forumers here can even grasp what the planning commission's reservations were about.

CONNECTIVITY AND WALKABILITY AND AFFORDABILTY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Lindsey didn't try.

If y'all can't get it, a group of mostly urban development minded individuals, I see now why the half-awake city council didn't get it.

There are ways of building apartments without buldozing an area, building a wall or a fence, putting in speed bumps, and cloning 4-plex pods in a parking lot full of Bradford Pears and holly bushes.

If you haven't been outside NWA much you might not be aware of this.

Me and Jeremy Pate now need to get a beer.....

[bagelw]

I don't get it..............

The city staff did make SOME recommendations that a person could interpret as being more "upscale" or whatever.

Did anyone on this board attend or watch any of the meetings? I watched them all.

Lindsey didn't do really anything with this project other than make some minor aesthetic adjustments.

That wasn't the main point from city staff.

As for there being "nothing for this development to connect to",well duh. Its greenfield. the point is, when there IS development for this project to connect to, it won't. It will remain its own pod of gated development, shut off from the rest of the city. See Southern View and its inability to connect to the apartments behind it for a GLARING LOCAL EXAMPLE.

THIS IS A BIG PART OF WHAT CITY PLAN 2025 TRIES TO AVOID. IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT UPSCALE, OR NEW URBANIST MIXED USE UPSCALE APARTMENTS. IT IS MUCH MORE ABOUT CONNECTIVITY AND A WALKABLE ENRVIRONMENT OF REAL NEIGHBORHOODS RATHER THAN PODS OF DEVELOPMENT ACCESSIBLE ONLY BY AUTOMOBILE.

Jeez... Now I am starting to understand why this project was approved without staff's recommendations being looked at seriously. Hardly any of the forumers here can even grasp what the planning commission's reservations were about.

CONNECTIVITY AND WALKABILITY AND AFFORDABILTY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Lindsey didn't try.

If y'all can't get it, a group of mostly urban development minded individuals, I see now why the half-awake city council didn't get it.

There are ways of building apartments without buldozing an area, building a wall or a fence, putting in speed bumps, and cloning 4-plex pods in a parking lot full of Bradford Pears and holly bushes.

If you haven't been outside NWA much you might not be aware of this.

Me and Jeremy Pate now need to get a beer.....

[cocothief]

I apologize for belittling.

I just felt like I kept reading the same things justifying the project, over and over and I felt a need to make my points uber-clear.

A person need not agree with Dover-Kohl, but please do be informed. I just harp on it because we paid for it and I'm disappointed to see it ignored because I think its in the city's best interest. Let's follow it.

City Council: Stop wasting our money for studies you refuse to follow, and stop paying the salaries of city staff if you are going to constantly ignore their research and input.

Carry on.