Big box stores in Charlotte

[dubone]

I definitely think that the word 'slavery' is being diluted if it applies to every workday of every chinese person. I can understand the debt-bonded labor argument if violence is used to enforce the bond, and I will check out the Bales book.

China is not communist in a Stalinist, Cold War sense. It is now a market-based economy at the grass roots, and operates more like an authoritarian socialist state at a national level. Authoritarianism is a facet of Chinese culture, and honestly, from the debates I have had with my chinese friends, their population and size have created a need for a strict government as the only way of keeping order. That culture has created similar demands for more authoritarian governments throughout countries with high populations of overseas chinese (Singapore and Malaysia are good examples of this).

I have spent time in China, have multiple friends who have lived there and others still that have done business there. I also have had a number of Chinese friends in China, and others that have emmigrated to the US or other places in Asia. Anyway, people there work and get paid, just as they do here. There might be some extreme examples to the contrary, but there are also some extreme examples in the US. There is no way I can get behind the idea everything Made In China is slave-made.

R&W, I respect your stand. What retailers and brands do you recommend as alternatives?

[Seabreeze]

I have a friend who worked at one of the Targets in Garner, NC up until several months ago, and she started at Target a year earlier at $6.50/hr. which is about the same as the Wal-Mart up the street. Also Target only hires people as part time unless they are management or department managers so they don't have to pay them benefits. So in reality for the average employee no, Target is not better then Wal-Mart. It just has an image of being higher quality which customers assumes is passed along to the employees, which, in reality doesn't happen.

Walmart recently reworked the pay structure company wide, I think the lowest you can make there is around 8-8.50hr

[mediamongrel]

Honestly, I don't see any difference between Target and Walmart. Both are a symptom of a society gone mad with consumerism and willing to pay for items produced by slave labor just to satisfy momentary lusts to own "things". Nothing in either store is long lasting, good for the environment, good for improving the human condiditon, good for building a community, etc etc. They only exist to sell junk that serves momentary desires which will end up in a landfill in 6 months.

People like to put up Target as being better than Walmart, but from what I have seen, the only difference between these two stores is that Target "targets" the material lusts of a different demographic than Walmart. Does that make it better than Walmart? NO In fact it is worse because this group has more disposible income and credit and attempts to say Walmart is better is really just another symptom of a mad society that awards social status based on the items the individual owns. Classism based on Materialialism.

OK, I guess next time i need a 128 oz. box of Tide or perhaps some Deodorant that means I am materialistic? God for bid if I want it for the lowest price...

By the way, ask the people working in the big box stores if they are glad they have a job. You might find a different opinion there.

[reverbandwhiskey]

"By the way, ask the people working in the big box stores if they are glad they have a job. You might find a different opinion there."

You ask them if they have health insurance, or more than one month's rent in savings. Then tell them that they can't have it, because you're not willing to pay 10 cents more for that detergent.

[DigitalSky]

R&W, I respect your stand. What retailers and brands do you recommend as alternatives?

I'm curious as well!

[monsoon]

OK, I guess next time i need a 128 oz. box of Tide or perhaps some Deodorant that means I am materialistic? God for bid if I want it for the lowest price...

No it doesn't and please keep things in perspective. Purchasing stuff at the grocery store for daily living isn't exactly the same as buying the latest George Foreman grill or Ab and Thigh Roller both made in China

[ncwebguy]

Where do all these ab rollers, quesadelia makers, disco balls, floor lamps, etc. *go*? Who is buying them? With the same items showing up in every walmart, target, kmart, bed bath and beyond, etc. there is a lot of inventory and a lot of consumers somewhere, or these things wouldn't be so prevalent... Bigger living spaces to put it all, or even more disposing to make room.

If I knew the employees take part in the profits, I'd spend more, a la Costco, but I am not going to spend more to improve a chain grocers' bottom line just to avoid improving target's bottom line.

Am still waiting to find out where these affordable, fair trade clothes are.... inquiring minds want to know!

[reverbandwhiskey]

"Am still waiting to find out where these affordable, fair trade clothes are.... inquiring minds want to know!"

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/

http://www.unionplus.org/union-made.cfm

http://www.usstuff.com/clothunn.htm

http://www.shopunionmade.org/

http://WWW.20-20GRAPHICS.COM

www.aldenshoe.com

http://www.algomanet.com

http://www.asisupplier.com/36963

http://www.americanapparelstore.com/main.html

http://www.unionrags.com

http://www.dmh2.com

http://www.fechheimer.com

http://www.gerbertools.com

http://www.landofhaws.biz

http://www.champion-industries.com/interform.htm

http://www.justiceclothing.com

www.kinglouie.com

www.landmarkproductscorp.com

http://www.neeonline.com

www.neweracap.com

http://www.nosweatapparel.com

http://www.platinumsportswear.net

http://www.americanapparelstore.com/main.html <-----has a shop in South End

Talley's and Home Economist carry a great deal of fair trade fruit and vegatables.

All of thatw as found in less than 3 minutes of looking. It's really not that hard, once you're willing to try.

[mediamongrel]

Everybody has a right to shop where they want. No one should be criticized for shopping at Wal Mart. if you think everyone in the US should have health insurance it sounds like you want socialized medicine. Ever think that maybe people who work part time jobs at Wal Mart and such DONT want insurance premiums taken out of their check? Some people decide not to have health insurance, and if that's their choice so be it. Also, a lot of people have part time jobs without insurance because their significant other has them on their plan. There's a lot of reasons. Sorry to be blunt, but I think most people wont agree with your Anti Wal Mart, Anti Target, Anti anything low price stand. That buy American only concept is a good conceptual idea but unworkable in the global marketing economy. Why do some people want us to live in a bubble? I don't understand. Again, everyone shouldn't be criticized for shopping at Wal Mart. If you want to go to the stores you mentioned in those links, then that's fine as well...I really dont see what everyone is arguing about.

[dubone]

Thanks for the list, I'll check them out to see if they offer styles I can actually wear. My brother is a vegan, anti-corporate, pro-fair-trade, only rides bicycles kind of guy and I wouldn't be comfortable wearing his kind of clothes in my kind of places.

As to MM, it is true that everyone has the right to shop where they want, but no one has the right not to be criticized. Personally, I am starting to think that I am a proponent of socialized medicine as I have multiple family members who at the moment are underemployed and completely uninsured. We do have programs like Medicaid, but Walmart (and maybe I'll toss in Target here too) ends up straining those resources because of their obsessive pursuit of screwing everyone but themselves out of money.

I would put forth that living in a bubble is being oblivious to the effects of your decisions. An example of living in a bubble when people do drugs, but then live in the distant suburbs because of crime. They don't consider that one the major reasons the US has so much gang violence is that gangs are fighting over local control of that multi-billion dollar industry.

Living in a bubble is thinking that the only cost of gas is what we pay per gallon and not considering the significant costs of war and defense to protect the sources of oil, and not considering the major healthcare costs from pollution.

I think you are right that most people would be for the low prices if asked. But if we asked them whether they would be for eliminating minimum wage and all the workplace and environmental laws in the US, and for increasing taxes to pay for the newly unemployed and underemployed people on welfare. they would probably not. Moral advocacy created those laws in the first place, so now that companies are bypass those laws on a grand scale, it is appropriate to debate the morality of shopping at those places.

Laissez-faire works great in theory and in 17th-century Scotland. But in real life, the invisible hand often gives the middle finger to a lot of people. The US has worked hard to remedy the excesses of a purely market economy over the last century. But those remedies cost money.

Personally, I think that there is some serious merit to the global economy, but only if US companies help to lift the sourcing countries out of poverty. By paying a fair wage in China or Indonesia, it is still cheaper than in the US, but it breeds goodwill in those countries, and helps to foster global peace and understanding. Spending every ounce of effort to squeeze pennys out of everyone around the globe causes hatred and that eventually leads to terrorism and war.

No one lives in a bubble for long.

[mediamongrel]

This thread is getting boring now, it is supposed to be about Big Box Stores in Charlotte, not political rhetoric.

[reverbandwhiskey]

This thread is getting boring now, it is supposed to be about Big Box Stores in Charlotte, not political rhetoric.

Well you are welcome to leave this thread at any point.

[reverbandwhiskey]

"Everybody has a right to shop where they want. No one should be criticized for shopping at Wal Mart. if you think everyone in the US should have health insurance it sounds like you want socialized medicine. Ever think that maybe people who work part time jobs at Wal Mart and such DONT want insurance premiums taken out of their check? Some people decide not to have health insurance, and if that's their choice so be it. Also, a lot of people have part time jobs without insurance because their significant other has them on their plan. There's a lot of reasons. Sorry to be blunt, but I think most people wont agree with your Anti Wal Mart, Anti Target, Anti anything low price stand."

Actually, you have no "right" to shop anywhere you want. Please don't throw words like "right" around so easily."

Where did I say everyone should be forced to have health insurance? I said that large corporations, with immense profits, should make affordable health insurance available to employees. Right now they are not offered any real choices outside of going on federal and state welfare programs.

You fear Socialism but what would you call Walmart's policy of helping employees get on welfare and WIC programs. So instead of sharing a fair portion of their immense profits with their workforce, they encourage them to get government assistance. Those "low prices" are kept artificially low by keeping a substantial portion of their workforce on welfare, using sweatshop and slave labor, and violating workplace safety, environmental protection, and global trade laws.

"That buy American only concept is a good conceptual idea but unworkable in the global marketing economy. Why do some people want us to live in a bubble? I don't understand. Again, everyone shouldn't be criticized for shopping at Wal Mart."

It is quite possible to buy internationally made goods while protecting worker rights and a healthy economy. There are unions forming in most third world countries as we speak. Take a look at a few of the many links I posted earlier. You will find fairly priced goods that don't rely on artificial price manipulation such the Walmart model. Have you ever actually researched the matter? You accuse me of living in a bubble when, in fact, it seems like you are the one living in a bubble. Our actions have consequences. Simply because you cannot see them does not mean they don't exist.

[monsoon]

Indeed. This is usually the response that we get when people who defend the governmental and societal policies that allow big box development to exist in the first place. This idea that somehow we should accept big box development, and the resulting low wages, no health benefits, etc, because we live in a global economy is a sellout arguments put forth by a government that has sold out to the corporations who are the only ones gaining from these types of places.

And yes I think that government should provide some kind of subdized health insurance for the citizens of this country. Especially for those who do work but can't afford to purchase insurance. Every other modern country in the world does it but we here in the USA have to suffer without it. The government has no problem spending $240M/day in Iraq. (yes this is $10M/hour) yet there is no money for health insurance in this country.

[reverbandwhiskey]

You know what, nevermind, this thread is so far off topic there's no saving it. Keep ranting about the global economy and Chinese sweat shops. Have fun.

How exactly is it off topic? The topic is about a debate on whether or not "Big Box" stores are a good thing. How can we have a discussion about Traget and Walmart without discussing the underlying issues at the core of their business model?

[dubone]

This topic IS about all those factors in a very complicated subject. It is political only because they are high level issues. Most threads here are about how great it is that another store is coming somewhere. Discussing why there are moral complications with big box stores was too combative to be part of a thread in support of big box coming to midtown.

It is fine to debate in support of big box but at least let it flow when someone writes against it. This is a pro-con thread.

[Miesian Corners]

Not to get too far off topic, but the "Made in China" rhetoric doesn't go far with me. Everything is made in China. Banana Republic, Gap, Abercrombie, Hollister, and every other chain store. The only places you can get away from Chinese-made goods are higher-end stores, and even then there's a chance it was made somewhere in Southeast Asia.

My trouble with Sprawl-Mart is how it treats its employees and what it does to small mom and pop shops in small-town America. I abhor how it blantantly lies about providing "much needed jobs", when studies (that it paid for) show that the opening of a Wal-Mart store has nearly exactly the opposite effect. The study indicates that initial retail employment grows by about 100 in the year of a Wal-Mart entry, but declines to a gain of about 50 jobs in five years as other retail establishments contract or close. In the meantime, possibly because Wal-Mart streamlines its supply chain, wholesale employment declines by 20 jobs. So, on net, Wal-Mart stores appear to create only 30 low wage jobs...and that's over a FIVE YEAR PERIOD.

Further, a report produced for the U.S. Congress in 2004 claims that because of Wal-Mart’s low wages, an average Wal-Mart employee costs federal taxpayers an extra $2,103 in the form of tax credits or deductions, or public assistance such as healthcare, housing, and energy assistance. So when you look at cost savings from that box of Tide, remember you're still paying a higher price via your tax burden.

[StevenRocks]

Alden shoes are really great. I noticed them on a list earlier.

[dubone]

I was talking to a coworker today about this and some other issue (toxic building materials), and I think I realized something more than ever. I think middle American, even when told of horrific details, just don't really believe it. It quickly becomes embarassing, like "gee, I guess it is weird to think so strongly about that.", as if it is ridiculous to assume that people's homes shouldn't emit toxic fumes that cause cancer. Social convention really makes it difficult to converse about stuff like that.

I don't think it is that they don't care, it is just that they think if it were really so bad, that it wouldn't be common practice.

I think that is why there isn't a strong market for either environmentally sound merchandise or fair trade stuff. If there was, Walmart would probably be the first to offer it. I think that is even why they dropped the Made In The USA marketing, it just doesn't sell as well as imported stuff.