Fifth-Forbes set back?

[mjcatl2]

Apparently, it finally happened (or maybe it wil be official) soon but Marquette isn't interested anymore.

But, how surprising would that be as they were all but pushed out.

[mjcatl2]

Demolition of the PNC buildings to start soon and 3 PNC will be done by 08.

Still wish we could see the final specs on it.

[Evergrey]

Does anyone have pictures of the 13 structures that will be demolished? (I probably have these in my own photo collection... but I'm unsure of what's going)

[PghUSA]

^^I don't that I know of (if I do it was by happenstance, never went down there just to take pics of what will be demolished).

So demolition will start anytime now? I'm not sure that knocking them down a month before the ASG is the wisest impression to leave with once-in-a-decade visitors to Pittsburgh. I'll see if I can get there in the next month or so, but if anyone sees a demolition date let us know!

[noobie]

^^I don't that I know of (if I do it was by happenstance, never went down there just to take pics of what will be demolished).

So demolition will start anytime now? I'm not sure that knocking them down a month before the ASG is the wisest impression to leave with once-in-a-decade visitors to Pittsburgh. I'll see if I can get there in the next month or so, but if anyone sees a demolition date let us know!

The PG article said they'd start "de-constructing" the buildings by next month, and begin full demolition in July. I haven't seen any detailed specs on the new tower-but the same article has it at 23 stories tall.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06130/688849-53.stm

[chucka]

Here are some pictures of the buildings that will go.

They will also tear down the triangle buildings that used to house a flower shop and has that mural on it (pictured below). They will use that space for construction trailers and storage. Once construction is done, it might be turned into a small park and developed in the future.

To give some scale, here is a picture of the Fifth & Forbes area. All the way to the left, is where the PNC building will go.

[Evergrey]

thanks Chucka... I'll be sad to see the Kay's advertisement go... isn't there a plan to save some of the more historically significant facades?

[chucka]

I remember Pat Lowry writing in the PG that parts of the historic facades will be saved to be put into a museum. They will not be incorporated into the new facade.

[TheGerbil]

Aw, some of those are nice old buildings, it's too bad they have to go. Putting them in a museum is nice but it isn't the same. But I guess for this development it would be very difficult to incorporate them.

[Evergrey]

Some of them are nice... but they've been horribly defaced... if any block downtown had to go for a mixed-use skyscraper... then this block is the best choice.

[PghUSA]

^^Sad to see them go, big developers should really try harder to save the facades, especially for retail/residential. I get confused some though, one is the new PNC (the pics chucka took), then we have the Washington Co. developer only recycling the Lazarus/Macy's and what of all the facades Point Park University are going to possibly recycle. I love the hurried pace of redevelopment but we need to watch what we might be throwing out.

Take into consideration everything going on in the Penn/Liberty corridor with the new micro-hotels as well.

[tooluther]

I heard once that that weird sculpture that used to be in the culural distirct (where the two big balloon things are now) was an F U to the destruction of all the historic structures that made way for progress.

[PghUSA]

wouldn't surprise me, developers see $$s, which is always relevant but in their haste they destroy the very thing they attempt to create, a sustainable, proud community.

[balistpgh]

I politely disagee with most of you about retaining the old. It is only worth it if someone pays for it. If there is money to maintain it and provide business opportunities to attract more investments, fine keep it and move on. If not, take it down.

Let me put it on a larger scale, developers in Italy have a heck of a time building anything new. They always encounter "roman problems". Whenever they dig they find some incredible artifacts, buildings, etc. Archaelogists come in, document the site, remove what they can BUT then the developers just go ahead and build the new building anyways.

Life goes on and while yes it is sad to see things go, progress must move forward. I would hate to live in a Pittsburgh where there were only buildings from 1920. Yes, it is nice to keep a few but not at the expense of investments.

That's my soapbox for today.

[UrbaniDesDev]

The Fifth Avenue Strip lost its historic appeal when Lazarus was allowed to build where it did. Many beautiful buildings were lost there. They could have as easily built across the street on Wood between Fifth and Forbes where there are much less significant buildings. Now it is all up for grabs. I fear that the Cultural District will be a small, yet vibrant, museum as the rest of downtown will be rebuilt. I have mixed feelings as I love the interest in downtown. I am glad to see that atleast the building between Forbes and Fifth above Market Square will be at least integrated into what ever project will come.

[blueblackcat]

I think there should be a designation made by someone like PHLF to denote structures that may not be the most important ones to preserve but that nevertheless represent the character of the city's architecture that, if too many are lost, that character will be lost too.

I see a big reason to consolidate here. There is so much undeveloped space so close to the city. Some little municipality might not see it in its interests to put in the utilities for a new high density development that won't pay off for 40 years, or to re-zone neighborhoods where the current residents hold a majority of political sawy. But Pittsburgh planners might give it a lot more consideration rather than displacing historic buildings in order for our regional economy to grow.

[TheGerbil]

I politely disagee with most of you about retaining the old. It is only worth it if someone pays for it. If there is money to maintain it and provide business opportunities to attract more investments, fine keep it and move on. If not, take it down.

Let me put it on a larger scale, developers in Italy have a heck of a time building anything new. They always encounter "roman problems". Whenever they dig they find some incredible artifacts, buildings, etc. Archaelogists come in, document the site, remove what they can BUT then the developers just go ahead and build the new building anyways.

Life goes on and while yes it is sad to see things go, progress must move forward. I would hate to live in a Pittsburgh where there were only buildings from 1920. Yes, it is nice to keep a few but not at the expense of investments.

That's my soapbox for today.

I do agree with you. We do need some new buildings, and sometimes that means tearing out old ones. Yet I am always sad to see nice old buildings go. And I hate to think that they won't be saved unless they are designated as historic.

At least the other developers interested in downtown have some desire to save old structures.

[tooluther]

For the most part I agree with Balistpgh aswell. Heaven forbid we become a Charleston, SC-ish city obsessed with its own historic self image. History is important, but money is the bottom line.

[Evergrey]

One of the best things about Pittsburgh is its wealth of human-scale historic structures of many periods throughout the city... I definately believe in preserving most of these structures and streetscapes... and finding exciting new uses for old buildings... however, I'm a bit suprised at the outcry over the demolition of this block of buildings downtown. These structures are nothing special compared to most of Pittsburgh's building stock... and have been defaced to render them pretty much historically insignificant. This is an underperforming and blighted section of downtown and demolition for an exciting mixed-use high-rise development is only a good thing for Pittsburgh.

I love downtown's density, human-scaled buildings, historical architecture, etc... and I'm glad that much of it has been kept around... we're certainly not an "office park masquerading as a downtown" like many North American cities... but this block is nothing special and I welcome its demolition.

[UrbaniDesDev]

brainstorming over downtown.

Dick Skrinjar, Mr. O'Connor's spokesman, said the mayor's office saw no need to open the meetings to the public because of all the past plans and studies that exist.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06132/689584-53.stm

[balistpgh]

I agree that it should be by invitation only. This is an issue where many people have an opinion. To reiterate my previous point, unless you are personally vested in the area, why should the city listen. The article at the end quotes a guy who is upset a not being invited because his father had a shop in downtown 46 years ago!! Does he live in downtown? No. Does it mention any connection today with him in downtown? No. He has no right to be upset.

This thing needs to move forward now and we need to get beyond the talks and studies and just do it.

[UrbaniDesDev]

You'll notice I didn't really comment on the article simply highlighted the private meeting part. You are right, Balist. It is time to move on and I doubt there is much more that can be said that hasn't been said over and over already. It is time to move on. I should say, that it makes me very nervous when a large group of very powerful people meet in private and decide the future of the city. I guess I vision them dividing the Golden Triangle up amongst themselves, but hey....

I say lets go!

I can't wait to see the finalists of the Cultural Trust Development!

[PghUSA]

^^Very interesting takes on all this, and I for one believe that the meeting should be open or PCNC fodder at the very least (CSPAN like).

As far as the opinion of balist, I don't think we should save everything but I do feel that there are some very bland very inhuman architecture around downtown and the north and south shore that with a little more effort and planning could be recycled into a skyscraper or other modern development. That might be a tad socialistic in the way it is applied, but just go to a zoning meeting or planning meeting and the stretch is not that much to strongly suggest another location or area for 21st century Mc'scrapers.

Also as far as us not being Charleston, I don't want downtown to turn into one giant Smithsonian--all look and no touch--but I am very very envious about Charleston's global tourist image. More and more people are choosing to spend their hard earned money to travel to something NOT out of a commercial architecture 101 course textbook.

It is a balance, a very important one but even if the costs are steep I would hope that any new developer uses the facades and much of the interior that is functional. It chills me to realize that just a generation or so ago New Yorkers fought tooth and nail to save the run down Chelsea Market/Piers that city hall wanted to redevelop with 60's box scrapers, today it is the soul of lower Manhattan.

[balistpgh]

I'm all about preserving the right buildings but it always come down to the money. Unless someone wants to pay for it then whoever buys it should do what they want with it, as long as they follow the construction guidelines of the city.

[PghUSA]

^^Can't argue with that truth balist . . . anyone get Mark Cuban's cell # yet, Pirates, Pens, Arena, subway expansion, and now Fifth/Forbes remodeling. We'll even put in a DQ so he can have easy access to any PR stunt he needs.

Anyways I'll see if I can head down there with my cam to take some parting shots.