Urban Living In SubUrban Areas

[thewhister]

Brier Creek is not urban living in a suburban setting. Brier Creek is facadism, masquerading as urbanism, in a suburban setting.

Developers dress up the big boxes with a little bit of brick and such, but it's marginally better than New Hope Commons in Durham at best.

I have yet to visit North Hills, but that sounds like the only real attempt to retrofit a suburban area in this region so far.

Everything else I've seen is a joke.

Oh you hit it right on the dot...it is trying to be something that it is not. You definitely need to go and checkout North Hills then.

Yes! The Comp Plan is ~20 years old in many areas that haven't been updated. It's damn rediculous that these developers and real estate lobbyists can just run amok around Raleigh with sh-tty development. Briar Creek is a terrible excuse for a "mixed-use," "walkable" development. At least we have ITB and N Hills, where most infill projects are beginning to be implemented in a sensible way.

Where and what is this ITB place you have mentioned?

[Jones_]

Where and what is this ITB place you have mentioned?

Inside The Beltline

[urbanesq]

^^ "Facadism"

PERFECT term for what's being built under the guise of "urbanism" these days!

Or, as I called it (less technically) in a previous post, "schlock"

[DanRNC]

Honestly, I would say most of the "new urbanism" trend is shlock and trend. Mixed-use development works for developers because you can smash more cr-p into a smaller area and even stack it high. I think the same of TOD development as well-its all buzz with no substance.

[thewhister]

Honestly, I would say most of the "new urbanism" trend is shlock and trend. Mixed-use development works for developers because you can smash more cr-p into a smaller area and even stack it high. I think the same of TOD development as well-its all buzz with no substance.

Its just like anything that is "labeled." New Urbanisim is an old concept with a rebrand. Now these mixed use developments are called "lifestyle centers." Whatever!

The important thing is that we are finally realizing zoning does not work and is not feasable now with land prices and construction costs going up all the time. Parking is a critical factor in all this too. look at downtown Raleigh and the majority of spaces are for parking - surface lot and deck! And all we see with the new buildings going up is a parking plinth and a building sitting on top of it? What kind of urban enviornment is it? besides making an impressive skyine we can call our own?

If the city would make concessions or revise regulations for developments for parking requirements than our urban environment would be sooooo much better. I complain a lot about parking but that seems to be the planning mode - "how much parking are you going to provide for this big building?" But it is a combination of other factors as well - as the BW article mentions.

[thewhister]

^^ "Facadism"

PERFECT term for what's being built under the guise of "urbanism" these days!

Or, as I called it (less technically) in a previous post, "schlock"

yep...we can see all the "schlock" around us. it seems like the first "schlock" of Cameron Village never fruitioned to a model to follow for what is the "strip center" and the "shopping village" like Brier Creek and the Village at Falls Point....all the Facadism to feed hungers with>>>>>>

[sax184]

Don't confuse new urbanism with all the projects that claim to be "new urbanist" or "neotraditional"- stupid marketing teams working for developers misuse these terms all the time. Developers also rename suburban crap as neotraditional/new urbanist to get it passed by planning boards who don't know any better.

To my knowledge, there are only two true new urbanist developments in the Triangle, and they are both in Chapel Hill - Southern Village and Meadowmont. Anything else claiming to be new urbanist is a lie.

North Hills is progress, but it is not new urbanism- it is a refitting of a suburban landscape as a more urban one. That said, by still being a parking-centric use developed in the prime age of sprawl, it likely has lots of anti-urban characteristics still embedded in its structure which would preclude it from being new urbanist. I need to check it out before passing final judgment.

Stuff like American Tobacco and Glenwood South are what I would term "real urbanism"- actual urban development that respects the street and the pedestrian over the automobile and contributes to an elevated public realm. I don't like all the extra parking provided at American Tobacco, but still, with our anemic city transit systems, this is about as real as modern urbanism in the Triangle gets.

But to get back to the new urbanist developments, Southern Village is, in many ways, nothing short of remarkable. After 8-10 years and nearing buildout, recent studies from UNC have shown that households living in single-family homes in SV drive 14.7 miles fewer every day compared to single-family dwellers in conventional suburban neighborhoods.

[DanRNC]

Southern Village also maintains a massive Park and Ride. I also believe the bus stops in the neighborhood itself. Southern Village is starting to grow on me. I don't think Southern Village or even Medowmont were marketed as "new urbanism".

[Transplant]

Southern Village also maintains a massive Park and Ride. I also believe the bus stops in the neighborhood itself. Southern Village is starting to grow on me. I don't think Southern Village or even Medowmont were marketed as "new urbanism".

Southern Village definetly was marketed as New Urbanism. Their website had links about the handful of articles about it. They have removed those now, but they were there 5 and 6 years ago.

[ncwebguy]

Maybe I've been to the wrong American Tobacco Warehouse project, but to me, street life there is *dead* except for a little bit around Mellow Mushroom. How is that "urban"? Yes, it is downtown, north of Durham Freeway, but it turns its back on the street and all pedestrian experiences are confined to the interior corridor along the creek/river/whatever. Is it too windy along there? Maybe this will change in time, but I doubt it. The "streetscape" along Blackwell and Julian Carr would be right at home in RTP. If it was "inside out" with Tylers, the chinese place, symposium, etc. across from the ball park, it wouldn't feel like a soulless alleyway.

This is what Durham has the chance to avoid, but seems to embrace (Brightleaf, West Village phase I and maybe II). Raleigh at least seems to be trying to keep this from happening, via the ongoing Marriott hotel negotiations, etc.

[Jones_]

Maybe I've been to the wrong American Tobacco Warehouse project, but to me, street life there is *dead* except for a little bit around Mellow Mushroom. How is that "urban"? Yes, it is downtown, north of Durham Freeway, but it turns its back on the street and all pedestrian experiences are confined to the interior corridor along the creek/river/whatever. Is it too windy along there? Maybe this will change in time, but I doubt it. The "streetscape" along Blackwell and Julian Carr would be right at home in RTP. If it was "inside out" with Tylers, the chinese place, symposium, etc. across from the ball park, it wouldn't feel like a soulless alleyway.

This is what Durham has the chance to avoid, but seems to embrace (Brightleaf, West Village phase I and maybe II). Raleigh at least seems to be trying to keep this from happening, via the ongoing Marriott hotel negotiations, etc.

Great point that I have noticed too. Only the inside of the downtown loop has any real street embracing experience...the rest does turn its back on the street.

[JDC]

Maybe I've been to the wrong American Tobacco Warehouse project, but to me, street life there is *dead* except for a little bit around Mellow Mushroom. How is that "urban"? Yes, it is downtown, north of Durham Freeway, but it turns its back on the street and all pedestrian experiences are confined to the interior corridor along the creek/river/whatever. Is it too windy along there? Maybe this will change in time, but I doubt it. The "streetscape" along Blackwell and Julian Carr would be right at home in RTP. If it was "inside out" with Tylers, the chinese place, symposium, etc. across from the ball park, it wouldn't feel like a soulless alleyway.

This is what Durham has the chance to avoid, but seems to embrace (Brightleaf, West Village phase I and maybe II). Raleigh at least seems to be trying to keep this from happening, via the ongoing Marriott hotel negotiations, etc.

While I love the atmosphere inside AmTobo, I'm inclined to agree with you. Many of the new developments in downtown Durham, however exciting and innovative, turn inward from the streets, creating urban "campuses". It's nice in theory, but strips the streets of their vitality (or potential vitality anyway). It would be so much cooler if the main entrances of Symposium and Tylers faced Blackwell instead of inside.

Bit I'd take AmTobo, West Village, or Brightleaf over places like Cameron Village or North Hills. At least these three downtown Durham examples are "woven" into the city fabric all while reflecting the city's history and creative spirit.

[pack-man]

Bit I'd take AmTobo, West Village, or Brightleaf over places like Cameron Village or North Hills. At least these three downtown Durham examples are "woven" into the city fabric all while reflecting the city's history and creative spirit.

In regards to the comment about Cameron Village, it is historical. It was the regions first mall/shopping center and at the time was built in the suburbs. So in a sense, it is an example of early american "sprawl" and still holds great value to the region today. Thus making it a "legend"

On another note, I thought they were putting some residential into American Tobacco? That would make sense.

[NCMike1981]

^yep, some of the warehouses will be residential

[Jones_]

^yep, some of the warehouses will be residential

The Old Bull (Tall white) building will be for sure, and the building just east of it looks like it popped up in the residential plan now too (Hill Building?)

[Transplant]

In regards to the comment about Cameron Village, it is historical. It was the regions first mall/shopping center and at the time was built in the suburbs. So in a sense, it is an example of early american "sprawl" and still holds great value to the region today. Thus making it a "legend"

Do you feel that CV should be maintained as it is? I can easily see that area being converted into an actual village, with Apartments on top of Retail. It is only a matter of time, maybe 15 years, but it will happen.

[ncwebguy]

For better or worse, Cameron Village was the first shopping center in the southeast US, not just the region or state. The idea of having a store other than corner stores outside of the central business district was unheard of at the time. It is not directly connected to downtown, but the city has grown towards it and well beyond, with imitators like north hills, brier creek, etc. Apartments could be squeezed inside/above the block containing Village draft house, Blockbuster, etc. There already is a second floor above the southwest corner that contains the antique mall, and a little office space above blockbuster. If the owners got really ambitious, they could put a parking structure to replace the service entrances, with an entrance between the ABC store and Picolia Italia, and wrap it with offices/apartments/condos above the existing stores. But I don't know what the existing stores' foundation is, and demand for such units may be absorbed down the road in the Oberlin/Coker towers.

Where in American Tobacco is the YMCA going to be located? When I first heard about it, I thought it would be the fitness room for the residential piece but also open to office workers.

An apples to apples comparison would be American Tobacco, Brightleaf, West Village, 9th street, and eventually inside the loop vs. Glenwood South, warehouse district, depot district, city market, Hillsborough street, and eventually fayetville street.

[JDC]

Where in American Tobacco is the YMCA going to be located? When I first heard about it, I thought it would be the fitness room for the residential piece but also open to office workers.

The YMCA is already there. It's on the lowest level of the building that Mellow Mushroom is in, near the parking garage closest to 147. You can see it from outside, but you'd have to go down to where the big waterfalls are. It's like a YMCA "express": no pool, basketball court, etc. Just a room with weights and treadmills and stuff.