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Sunday Press has two articles on never buils High rises


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As far as cities to compare GR to I think that Fort Wayne, Des Moines, Dayton, Toledo, Louisville, Lexington (actually a lot larger with a recent anexation of the county), Rochester, Little Rock, Omaha, Hartford, Winston-Salem, and Providence are all similar in size and scope and as far as hight, all of them have taller buildings than GR and over 400', and there are more too

Also I think I remember seeing something at the museum a long time ago of a painting of a bustling downtown GR in the 30s or 40s with the mckay tower and other existing buildings and also new taller towers including the tallest one, a spiral tower in the middle

GR metro is substantially bigger (almost twice as big) as Toledo, Little Rock, Des Moines, Lexington, and Fort Wayne. However the city itself (and skyline) are more similar to these cities.

I would certainly put Louisville and Hartford (both have metros over 1.2 million) in a higher class than the rest of these cities, with Grand Rapids not far behind due to its large metro composed of many smaller cities.

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I've figured out that what GR needs is something to happen of national significance. Memphis has the FedEx facility, Nashville has their music scene, Charlotte has BOA and Wachovia, Atlanta has Coke and CNN, Des Moines has Wells Fargo, Indianapolis has NASCAR, and even Omaha has Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffett. We can't survive on Amway alone :blush:

Most cities of GR's size don't have a whole lot of major companies based there. You can't expect a whole lot either. But one thing I find odd is that Gr doesn't have one Fortune 500 company, even Lansing has one (Auto-Owners Ins). GR does however have 3 companies in the 600's: Universal Forest Products (651), Steelcase (672) and Spartan Stores (673).

GR metro is substantially bigger (almost twice as big) as Toledo, Little Rock, Des Moines, Lexington, and Fort Wayne. However the city itself (and skyline) are more similar to these cities.

I would certainly put Louisville and Hartford (both have metros over 1.2 million) in a higher class than the rest of these cities, with Grand Rapids not far behind due to its large metro composed of many smaller cities.

GR's metro is meaningless, it extends much farther out than the real influence of the city is. Muskegon, Holland and over half of the rest of GR's Metro has little or nothing to do with GR itself. GR's urban area population is about 550,000 thats the number that really matters. And GR is far ahead of many other cities, GR almost has more downtown development that Detroit, it kills Lansing and has a more successful downtown than many of the cities you cited for having taller towers. Just because a city has taller towers does not make it more successful. Toledo for instance is struggling, it's tallest or second tallest tower, Fiberglass Tower, is empty and has been for awhile. GR has always kept a low skyline, seemingly on purpose. Also, GR despite it's size, has very little influence. Even Lansing, with a urban area population of 350,000 has more influence than GR, Gr is an almost forgotten about city within it's own state, I'm sure most of you are aware of that, the funding shows it.

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"GR's metro is meaningless, it extends much farther out than the real influence of the city is. Muskegon, Holland and over half of the rest of GR's Metro has little or nothing to do with GR itself."

800,000 people belong in Metro GR...they are designated because of the populations traveling patterns... To say that they mean little to none is not correct. What we have is a strong interconnected metro, I think when the next census comes around Holland maybe Muskegon will be back forming a 1.3-1.5 million metro.

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GR despite it's size, has very little influence. Even Lansing, with a urban area population of 350,000 has more influence than GR, Gr is an almost forgotten about city within it's own state, I'm sure most of you are aware of that, the funding shows it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sure, if GR were the state capitol, it would wield considerable influence too. I'm not sure Lansing would be faring too well if it didn't have the government influence it has. I mean, those representatives, senators staffers and lobbyists are spending gobs of money downtown.

GR is the business and cultural center of the west side of the state, and I would put it as more influential than any other part of the state where the arts are concerned.

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A few thoughts from the (other) Left Coast:

GR suffered mightily in the 1920s and 1930s from the loss of thousands of furniture jobs that left for the Southeast and then from the failure of local business leaders to welcome the auto industry (not to mention the Depression). If you look at the growth rates of Flint and GR in this period, GR, historically Michigan's second city, was far surpassed by its near-twin to the East. By the 1960 census, Flint had actually surpassed GR, though I think this was undone by the 1961 annexations. So, those pie-in-the-sky paintings of a mini-Chicago in a mythical 1940 GR was just that -- pie-in-the-sky.

GR has never had substantial corporations headquartered there because its biggest companies were private for decades. This was true for both Amway and Steelcase. In fact, probably the biggest local company remaining, at least in terms of sales, Meijer, is still private. Private companies tend to be leaner and less "corporate," thus needing less in the way of imposing office buildings. (And office towers are often not the most efficient corporate headquarters -- more and more companies are building low-rise campuses in suburban locations. Easier to get to, cheaper to build and maintain, and not a target for terrorists.)

Also, some of the cities in the comparison list are state capitals, such as Des Moines and Madison. State capitals necessarily bring with them the need for large office spaces, that sometimes are translated into towers.

Thus, there simply was not the impetus for high-rise construction in GR that may have existed in other, similar sized cities.

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Most cities of GR's size don't have a whole lot of major companies based there. You can't expect a whole lot either. But one thing I find odd is that Gr doesn't have one Fortune 500 company, even Lansing has one (Auto-Owners Ins). GR does however have 3 companies in the 600's: Universal Forest Products (651), Steelcase (672) and Spartan Stores (673).

GR's metro is meaningless, it extends much farther out than the real influence of the city is. Muskegon, Holland and over half of the rest of GR's Metro has little or nothing to do with GR itself. GR's urban area population is about 550,000 thats the number that really matters. And GR is far ahead of many other cities, GR almost has more downtown development that Detroit, it kills Lansing and has a more successful downtown than many of the cities you cited for having taller towers. Just because a city has taller towers does not make it more successful. Toledo for instance is struggling, it's tallest or second tallest tower, Fiberglass Tower, is empty and has been for awhile. GR has always kept a low skyline, seemingly on purpose. Also, GR despite it's size, has very little influence. Even Lansing, with a urban area population of 350,000 has more influence than GR, Gr is an almost forgotten about city within it's own state, I'm sure most of you are aware of that, the funding shows it.

Well, now you've got my West State dander up. Lansing has "influence" because it is the state capital. Historically, GR had immense influence. Back in the 1940s, the Republican party in the state was run out of an GR office building by a political machine run by Frank McKay.

With the growth in West State population, GR and the rest of the area is gradually regaining political influence. The area gets porked (no pun intended) because the Governor realizes she has no political support west and north of Ingham County and probably doesn't care. Her strategy is to keep Wayne and Washtenaw Counties happy, Oakland and Macomb Counties neutral, with Kent, Ottawa, Kalamazoo, etc. etc. be da--ed.

It is an old story in Michigan, and one that was abetted far too long in West Michigan by local politicans and business leaders who were not interested in their fair share of state money. From my reading of the GR Press editorials, this is no longer a problem -- it seems like every third editorial is an angry screed about the Southeastern Counties getting something that Kent County should be getting.

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Say what you want, GR is a ghost of a city. To people outside of West Michigan, GR is of little importance and is not realized, why do you think people are SO impressed when they see pics of GR or they visit there? It's because GR is not well known. GR isn't of much significance to those outside of West Michigan. Why this is has been a mystery to me, I have never been able to figure it out, although it may have a lot to do the conservative climate in and around GR, which from what I understand is changing.

As for GR having an 800,000 person metro, I don't beleive it. I go by urban area population, it's a pretty safe stat, defined as:

Urbanized area -

(UA) An area consisting of a central place(s) and adjacent territory with a general population density of at least 1,000 people per square mile of land area that together have a minimum residential population of at least 50,000 people. The Census Bureau uses published criteria to determine the qualification and boundaries of UAs.

As for saying that the GR-Muskegon-Holland Metro will reach, 1.3-1.5 million, I'm very doubtful. That would mean adding 200,000 to 400,000 people. That kind of population growth will not happen in Michigan. That metro will likely gain no more than 100,000 people, and thats pushing it. The GR-Wyoming metro had a population of 740k in 2000, in 2004 it was estimated at 767k at that growth rate (just under 1% per year) the GR-Wyoming metro will be at 814k in 2010.

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Say what you want, GR is a ghost of a city. To people outside of West Michigan, GR is of little importance and is not realized, why do you think people are SO impressed when they see pics of GR or they visit there? It's because GR is not well known. GR isn't of much significance to those outside of West Michigan. Why this is has been a mystery to me, I have never been able to figure it out, although it may have a lot to do the conservative climate in and around GR, which from what I understand is changing.

As for GR having an 800,000 person metro, I don't beleive it. I go by urban area population, it's a pretty safe stat, defined as:

Urbanized area -

(UA) An area consisting of a central place(s) and adjacent territory with a general population density of at least 1,000 people per square mile of land area that together have a minimum residential population of at least 50,000 people. The Census Bureau uses published criteria to determine the qualification and boundaries of UAs.

As for saying that the GR-Muskegon-Holland Metro will reach, 1.3-1.5 million, I'm very doubtful. That would mean adding 200,000 to 400,000 people. That kind of population growth will not happen in Michigan. That metro will likely gain no more than 100,000 people, and thats pushing it. The GR-Wyoming metro had a population of 740k in 2000, in 2004 it was estimated at 767k at that growth rate (just under 1% per year) the GR-Wyoming metro will be at 814k in 2010.

It's very simple, and should not come as a surprise. My earlier post got bumped to a previous page, but this sums it up for me:

I've figured out that what GR needs is something to happen of national significance. Memphis has the FedEx facility, Nashville has their music scene, Charlotte has BOA and Wachovia, Atlanta has Coke and CNN, Des Moines has Wells Fargo, Indianapolis has NASCAR, and even Omaha has Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffett. We can't survive on Amway alone :blush:

It has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with conservatism. We don't even show up on national rankings of "most conservative" communities. Nobody knows we're here. Plain and simple. The good thing is we don't have any pre-conceived notions to overcome, because no one has any pre-conceived notions.

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I don't think it has anything to do with conservatism either. It's a red herring for people who already live here.

Dad is right, it's something of national significance, but not necessarily business. It's sports teams and universities and cultural institutions. Granted, business fuels building growth.

The main gist of the press article was a confluence of circumstances keeps GR's skyline from growing, but in the end its the fact that land, three minutes from downtown, is super-cheap and building costs/interest rates are super low. Add that all together, and you see why Foremost and Meijer are in Walker, and Steelcase is in Kentwood, and MMPC is in Cascade.

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Dad is right, it's something of national significance, but not necessarily business. It's sports teams and universities and cultural institutions. Granted, business fuels building growth.

I think sports teams have a lot to do with a city's familiarity in the rest of the country. Green Bay is pretty small and yet and everybody knows the city because of the Packers. The move of the Hornets in the NBA from New Orleans to Oklahoma City has brought that city some major recognition. It's actually one of the most feared arenas for away teams and they have a consistently rowdy, boistrous and sold out crowd.

Now if Green Bay can have an NFL team and OKC can have an NBA, why can't we do better? The Griffins are great and far and away the most popular. But it's just downhill from there. Why does an MSA of 1.2 million have a single A pro baseball team? (Because West Michigan is part of their name, I'm counting the whole WM region). That's just sad. We should have at least AA or AAA. Toledo, Colorado Springs, Raliegh-Durham and Norfolk VA, all have AAA teams. Corpus Christi, Texas has AA!

I'm not sure Arena Football is the answer either; if anybody caught the highlights of the Rampage game this past weekend, Van Andel Arena was just empty. And it's no wonder; the ticket prices go up to $80+.

We don't even have an NBA Development League team; even Fayetteville Arkansas has one of those.

Overall, one of the keys to prominence is improved sports teams. The higher profile, the more fans you get from out of town, the more media coverage you get. It just helps raise the image of the city and I hope that the level of sports we have here improves dramatically.

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Most cities of GR's size don't have a whole lot of major companies based there. You can't expect a whole lot either. But one thing I find odd is that Gr doesn't have one Fortune 500 company, even Lansing has one (Auto-Owners Ins). GR does however have 3 companies in the 600's: Universal Forest Products (651), Steelcase (672) and Spartan Stores (673).

Let's see, we have the following companies based here, which I have the square footage of their offices:

Wolverine World Wide HQ - 225,000 sf

USF Holland HQ - 50,000 sf

Universal Forest Products HQ - 49,000 sf

Steelcase HQ - 383,000 sf

Spartan Stores HQ - 127,323 sf

Riviera Tool HQ - 28,000 sf

Perrigo HQ - 296,000 sf

Macatawa Bank HQ - 49,000 sf

Jack Loeks Theaters HQ - 13,802 sf

Gainey Transportation Services HQ - 25,000 sf

Haworth Inc HQ - 300,000 sf

Horizon Group Properties HQ - 41,000 sf

X-Rite HQ - 65,000 sf

The above companies have square footage in excess of 1.6 million. Also, the following companies based here, which I don't have their office square footage:

Zondervan HQ

United Bank of Michigan HQ

Royal Plastics HQ

Meijer Inc HQ

Bissell HQ

Independent Bank HQ

Herman Miller HQ

Foremost Insurance HQ

Iserve HQ

Gentex HQ

Meritage Hospitality Group HQ

Alticor HQ

Howard Miller HQ

Gordon Food Services HQ

A lot of these companies deal on the international stage, and are not just locally known. So to say we do not have the major companies based here is less than accurate. If only a few of them would consider moving downtown, think of what kind of downtown we would have.

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Now if Green Bay can have an NFL team and OKC can have an NBA, why can't we do better?

To answer the Green Bay question, they were one of the original members of the NFL before there was the prestige that came with having one of these teams. Plus, the local populace owns the team, so they would never look to relocate it somewhere else.

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What I can add here is I think this article could really start to inspire people and change some minds around GR. Sometimes I ask myself what makes a great city, and I try think about the answer in the mind of someone who isn't an urban enthusiats. I keep comming to one of the answers, taller skyscrapers. Minus the philosophical/intellectual naysay to skyscrapers-- tall buildings can inspire progress, vision, business, pride, and maybe even more skyscrapers. Its simple, thats part of the lure to big cities is the mountains of buildings rising from a plane, or the massing of midrises gradually rising to the tallest point of the center piece building.

When I was driving into Chicago with my girlfriend we awed at the skyline... If I were driving we would have been in a 200 car pileup. After seeing it I was taken back by the shear size and scope of the place and walking away from the expierence I want someone to come to GR and feel the same. Maybe not so much on the scale, but when you come here I want you to be wowed more so then you are now.

Edit:

Prankster, I think you can add 1 million sqf to Alticor. I don't think thats just HQ space, but also the distribution/manfacturing center.

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What I can add here is I think this article could really start to inspire people and change some minds around GR. Sometimes I ask myself what makes a great city, and I try think about the answer in the mind of someone who isn't an urban enthusiats. I keep comming to one of the answers, taller skyscrapers. Minus the philosophical/intellectual naysay to skyscrapers-- tall buildings can inspire progress, vision, business, pride, and maybe even more skyscrapers. Its simple, thats part of the lure to big cities is the mountains of buildings rising from a plane, or the massing of midrises gradually rising to the tallest point of the center piece building.

When I was driving into Chicago with my girlfriend we awed at the skyline... If I were driving we would have been in a 200 car pileup. After seeing it I was taken back by the shear size and scope of the place and walking away from the expierence I want someone to come to GR and feel the same. Maybe not so much on the scale, but when you come here I want you to be wowed more so then you are now.

Edit:

Prankster, I think you can add 1 million sqf to Alticor. I don't think thats just HQ space, but also the distribution/manfacturing center.

There was a great article about the mind set of the people of Omaha in the wall street journal about six years ago. I still have it somewhere. It talked about the 634 foot bank tower that was about to be contructed. The article stated that business and community leaders wanted to make a statement to others who would vist the city. They wanted people to be able to see the skyscraper when they flew in and out of the airport. I'm no sure if we have enough people in charge here in GR who feel that way, althoguh this forum is inspring to the point that we could have this in the future if some of us become even more active. A lot of people here still subsrcibe to the small town image that has been pushed at them for years.

Why? I really don't know.

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maybe this has been talked about, but Im REEEEALLLLY happy Rainbow Towers was never built ;)

it would have been a 33 story s*** stain in the skyline :P, and it probably would have postponed, or outright killed projects like Devos Place, AGP, Plaza Towers, maybe even Riverhouse.

JW Marriott might have happened a little earlier, and VAA probably would still happen, but I cant see Devos Place happening if Rainbow was to be a convention center as well. Although maybe it would have turned the Grand Center back into a Performing arts center (ergo, renovating the Welsh Auditorium for theatre use again.)

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Well I think you can have great cities without huge skyscrapers, take Washington DC for example or just about any European capital (the older sections of town). To me it is the pedestrian qualities, the depth (a true downtown needs to have more than 1 nice street) and the surprises ("did you ever notice the...)

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Well I think you can have great cities without huge skyscrapers, take Washington DC for example or just about any European capital (the older sections of town). To me it is the pedestrian qualities, the depth (a true downtown needs to have more than 1 nice street) and the surprises ("did you ever notice the...)

I think one of GR's high points is that it still has great streetscapes even with the bulbous 131 plowing through it. Sure the sidewalks need lots of work, but overall street-level commerce is really good here compared to other similar sized american cities.

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I agree with GRGuy that high-rises are not the end-all-be-all. Many European cities do not have high-rises, and they have that "what's around the next corner" adventurous quality. We have the benefit of having some very distinct different quadrants of downtown (Monroe North, Heartside, Monroe Center, Pearl Street area, Calder Plaza, Medical Mile, and the just recently christened Heritage Square :whistling: )

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