Sunday Press has two articles on never buils High rises

[egrguy]

i know the quote from the article about trying to lure corporate companies into downtown, he metions perrigo/gerber/foremost, but to me perrigo just makes a lot of sense to be hq'd downtown with the healthcare research/job boom downtown

[ppassafi]

I am not sure I buy all this talk of GR peers. I think GR the actual city is in a league with Toledo and Albany. That is a good comparison. The fact is, cities like Hartford and Louisville are in a different league than GR as far as sheer urban area size. They are much denser cores with population fanning out from the downtown. GR boosts its numbers if you include the small and separate cities around it like Holland. Driving through Louisville, you feel like its a much bigger city than GR and the UA proves it. Louisville alone is over 350k larger in UA than GR. That is a stark and substantial difference. As you can see, Louisville is more in line with Jacksonville, Austin, Nashville, Charlotte, SLC, Richmond and Hartford.

Now, ECONOMICALLY, GR combined with Muskegon and Holland is similar to the Louisville and Hartford areas. That is a somewhat different story that has nothing to do with urbanity, population density, and urban neighborhoods.

2000 Urban Areas http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Buffalo, NY 976,703 38 366.69 44 2,663.5 318 949.73 1,028.4

Memphis, TN--MS--AR 972,091 39 399.82 39 2,431.3 477 1,035.52 938.7

Austin, TX 901,920 40 318.13 49 2,835.1 245 823.94 1,094.6

Bridgeport--Stamford, CT--NY 888,890 41 465.31 31 1,910.3 1,124 1,205.14 737.6

Salt Lake City, UT 887,650 42 230.72 74 3,847.3 83 597.57 1,485.4

Jacksonville, FL 882,295 43 410.52 37 2,149.2 775 1,063.23 829.8

Louisville, KY--IN 863,582 44 391.30 42 2,207.0 695 1,013.46 852.1

Hartford, CT 851,535 45 469.34 30 1,814.3 1,307 1,215.59 700.5

Richmond, VA 818,836 46 436.76 34 1,874.8 1,187 1,131.19 723.9

Charlotte, NC--SC 758,927 47 434.91 35 1,745.0 1,431 1,126.42 673.8

Nashville-Davidson, TN 749,935 48 430.77 36 1,740.9 1,444 1,115.69 672.2

Oklahoma City, OK 747,003 49 322.35 47 2,317.4 576 834.89 894.7

Tucson, AZ 720,425 50 291.36 54 2,472.7 437 754.61 954.7

Honolulu, HI 718,182 51 154.12 104 4,659.8 45 399.18 1,799.1

Dayton, OH 703,444 52 323.56 46 2,174.1 738 838.01 839.4

Rochester, NY 694,396 53 295.15 53 2,352.7 538 764.44 908.4

El Paso, TX--NM 674,801 54 219.12 81 3,079.6 178 567.52 1,189.0

Birmingham, AL 663,615 55 392.10 41 1,692.5 1,556 1,015.53 653.5

Omaha, NE--IA 626,623 56 226.36 77 2,768.3 270 586.27 1,068.8

Albuquerque, NM 598,191 57 223.95 78 2,671.0 315 580.04 1,031.3

Allentown--Bethlehem, PA--NJ 576,408 58 289.50 56 1,991.1 980 749.79 768.8

Springfield, MA--CT 573,610 59 308.98 51 1,856.5 1,224 800.26 716.8

Akron, OH 570,215 60 307.81 52 1,852.5 1,233 797.22 715.3

Sarasota--Bradenton, FL 559,229 61 270.44 63 2,067.8 869 700.44 798.4

Albany, NY 558,947 62 284.25 60 1,966.4 1,022 736.21 759.2

Tulsa, OK 558,329 63 261.40 66 2,135.9 794 677.03 824.7

Fresno, CA 554,923 64 138.62 110 4,003.1 70 359.03 1,545.6

Concord, CA 552,624 65 176.46 95 3,131.8 164 457.02 1,209.2

Raleigh, NC 541,527 66 319.61 48 1,694.3 1,553 827.79 654.2

Grand Rapids, MI 539,080 67 257.35 68 2,094.7 836 666.54 808.8

Mission Viejo, CA 533,015 68 136.89 113 3,893.9 80 354.53 1,503.4

New Haven, CT 531,314 69 285.31 59 1,862.2 1,211 738.94 719.0

McAllen, TX 523,144 70 313.83 50 1,667.0 1,607 812.82 643.6

Toledo, OH--MI 503,008 71 202.33 87 2,486.1 426 524.03 959.9

Baton Rouge, LA 479,019 72 280.65 61 1,706.8 1,521 726.89 659.0

Colorado Springs, CO 466,122 73 197.36 90 2,361.7 528 511.17 911.9

Worcester, MA--CT 429,882 74 250.32 70 1,717.3 1,492 648.33 663.1

Charleston--North Charleston, SC 423,410 75 230.94 73 1,833.4 1,273 598.13 707.9

[GaryP]

I agree with GRGuy that high-rises are not the end-all-be-all. Many European cities do not have high-rises, and they have that "what's around the next corner" adventurous quality. We have the benefit of having some very distinct different quadrants of downtown (Monroe North, Heartside, Monroe Center, Pearl Street area, Calder Plaza, Medical Mile, and the just recently christened Heritage Square )

I love this potential about GR. I like tall buildings, but I hate what they do to sun light. Take a side street off of Michigan ave in Chicago - you wont see the sun again until you pass State Street. Plus its cold and windy walking down these streets for most of the year. GR has spread the high-rises out and I think its the best possible scenario, we still have significant height with out without the that downside. And what 3dad is saying is completely correct IMO. We've spread out which allows for different experiences in many districts. And this allows for lower land costs, which in turn allows for more project to be completed. I'm in favor of sprawling downtown as far as possible as long as we abide by the principle of zero setbacks and attractive street level design.

[superNOVA]

Gr doesn't have one Fortune 500 company

That is a terrible indicator. Grand Rapids is very well known in the business world (hence some of the astronomical ratings in business publications and studies). I would rather have 1000 small 10-50 employee companies spanning sectors and markets than one large fortune 500 - guess which one is more resistant to economic downturns... Not to mention growth potential and local ownership - which means a hell of a lot more than most people think.

The small business is the bread and butter of this region, and has been for some time. This is actually starting to pay some dividends if you have taken time to notice some of the more recent high flyers and fast growers in the area. It is also excellent insulation to specific market issues.

Lastly, when I compare regions and metros, I compare economics. Downtowns are one thing, but it all really comes down to pure numbers. In this case, Grand Rapids (lacking fortune 500 companies and all) does excellent compared to the competition. Its economy is on the order of 4x larger than Lansing's, 2x larger than Des Moines, and about the same as Nashville and New Orleans. We easily surpass cities such as Buffalo, Jacksonville, OKC, etc...

Just the facts.

[MJLO]

I very much like the point ppassafi, makes about Urbanity, I have often thought that we as residents of Grand Rapids have an inflated Idea of how big Greater Grand Rapids is. Case in point I was driving thru Oklahoma City a couple weeks ago, a city, that given comparisons, ranks rather close in metro population, when you use the four county GR CSMA. Driving Thru OKC, I could tell I was in a city much much larger.

[grcitydog]

I agree with GRGuy that high-rises are not the end-all-be-all. Many European cities do not have high-rises, and they have that "what's around the next corner" adventurous quality. We have the benefit of having some very distinct different quadrants of downtown (Monroe North, Heartside, Monroe Center, Pearl Street area, Calder Plaza, Medical Mile, and the just recently christened Heritage Square )

I have never heard of "Heritage Square". Where is it and what are the boundries?

[Time]

maybe this has been talked about, but Im REEEEALLLLY happy Rainbow Towers was never built

it would have been a 33 story s*** stain in the skyline , and it probably would have postponed, or outright killed projects like Devos Place, AGP, Plaza Towers, maybe even Riverhouse.

JW Marriott might have happened a little earlier, and VAA probably would still happen, but I cant see Devos Place happening if Rainbow was to be a convention center as well. Although maybe it would have turned the Grand Center back into a Performing arts center (ergo, renovating the Welsh Auditorium for theatre use again.)

I agree, Rainbow towers looked hideous.

[Prankster]

I agree, Rainbow towers looked hideous.

But back in the 70's, it was the talk of the town. For quite a while, you couldn't go more than a couple days without reading something about it. It was touted as being key for the revitalization of downtown.

[HolidayInnExpress]

I am not sure I buy all this talk of GR peers. I think GR the actual city is in a league with Toledo and Albany. That is a good comparison. The fact is, cities like Hartford and Louisville are in a different league than GR as far as sheer urban area size. They are much denser cores with population fanning out from the downtown. GR boosts its numbers if you include the small and separate cities around it like Holland. Driving through Louisville, you feel like its a much bigger city than GR and the UA proves it. Louisville alone is over 350k larger in UA than GR. That is a stark and substantial difference. As you can see, Louisville is more in line with Jacksonville, Austin, Nashville, Charlotte, SLC, Richmond and Hartford.

Now, ECONOMICALLY, GR combined with Muskegon and Holland is similar to the Louisville and Hartford areas. That is a somewhat different story that has nothing to do with urbanity, population density, and urban neighborhoods.

2000 Urban Areas http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Buffalo, NY 976,703 38 366.69 44 2,663.5 318 949.73 1,028.4

Memphis, TN--MS--AR 972,091 39 399.82 39 2,431.3 477 1,035.52 938.7

Austin, TX 901,920 40 318.13 49 2,835.1 245 823.94 1,094.6

Bridgeport--Stamford, CT--NY 888,890 41 465.31 31 1,910.3 1,124 1,205.14 737.6

Salt Lake City, UT 887,650 42 230.72 74 3,847.3 83 597.57 1,485.4

Jacksonville, FL 882,295 43 410.52 37 2,149.2 775 1,063.23 829.8

Louisville, KY--IN 863,582 44 391.30 42 2,207.0 695 1,013.46 852.1

Hartford, CT 851,535 45 469.34 30 1,814.3 1,307 1,215.59 700.5

Richmond, VA 818,836 46 436.76 34 1,874.8 1,187 1,131.19 723.9

Charlotte, NC--SC 758,927 47 434.91 35 1,745.0 1,431 1,126.42 673.8

Nashville-Davidson, TN 749,935 48 430.77 36 1,740.9 1,444 1,115.69 672.2

Oklahoma City, OK 747,003 49 322.35 47 2,317.4 576 834.89 894.7

Tucson, AZ 720,425 50 291.36 54 2,472.7 437 754.61 954.7

Honolulu, HI 718,182 51 154.12 104 4,659.8 45 399.18 1,799.1

Dayton, OH 703,444 52 323.56 46 2,174.1 738 838.01 839.4

Rochester, NY 694,396 53 295.15 53 2,352.7 538 764.44 908.4

El Paso, TX--NM 674,801 54 219.12 81 3,079.6 178 567.52 1,189.0

Birmingham, AL 663,615 55 392.10 41 1,692.5 1,556 1,015.53 653.5

Omaha, NE--IA 626,623 56 226.36 77 2,768.3 270 586.27 1,068.8

Albuquerque, NM 598,191 57 223.95 78 2,671.0 315 580.04 1,031.3

Allentown--Bethlehem, PA--NJ 576,408 58 289.50 56 1,991.1 980 749.79 768.8

Springfield, MA--CT 573,610 59 308.98 51 1,856.5 1,224 800.26 716.8

Akron, OH 570,215 60 307.81 52 1,852.5 1,233 797.22 715.3

Sarasota--Bradenton, FL 559,229 61 270.44 63 2,067.8 869 700.44 798.4

Albany, NY 558,947 62 284.25 60 1,966.4 1,022 736.21 759.2

Tulsa, OK 558,329 63 261.40 66 2,135.9 794 677.03 824.7

Fresno, CA 554,923 64 138.62 110 4,003.1 70 359.03 1,545.6

Concord, CA 552,624 65 176.46 95 3,131.8 164 457.02 1,209.2

Raleigh, NC 541,527 66 319.61 48 1,694.3 1,553 827.79 654.2

Grand Rapids, MI 539,080 67 257.35 68 2,094.7 836 666.54 808.8

Mission Viejo, CA 533,015 68 136.89 113 3,893.9 80 354.53 1,503.4

New Haven, CT 531,314 69 285.31 59 1,862.2 1,211 738.94 719.0

McAllen, TX 523,144 70 313.83 50 1,667.0 1,607 812.82 643.6

Toledo, OH--MI 503,008 71 202.33 87 2,486.1 426 524.03 959.9

Baton Rouge, LA 479,019 72 280.65 61 1,706.8 1,521 726.89 659.0

Colorado Springs, CO 466,122 73 197.36 90 2,361.7 528 511.17 911.9

Worcester, MA--CT 429,882 74 250.32 70 1,717.3 1,492 648.33 663.1

Charleston--North Charleston, SC 423,410 75 230.94 73 1,833.4 1,273 598.13 707.9

Frankly, I don

[Rizzo]

Metro GR although sprawled is also very interconnected.