Brookside/Glascock St.

[ncwebguy]

I looked at that dog park yahoo group and this was posted Dec. 5th:

Sunday (12/3) the owner of the land, David Cockman, was on the site checking

on progress. When I talked with him, he was not happy with developer

Steve Fitzpatrick and was planning on calling him.

The site has barely changed since the April 25th N&O article refernced earlier in this thread was written. Grocery store by summer? Project completed by end of the year? They have a little over a week, if they work through the weekends and holidays...

[dombalis]

Well, i forgot to post this earlier, but, according to the chair of the East CAC, the developer cannot finish the shops and condos until he obtains more funding. So I'm assuming we're just stuck with this eyesore until the developer can raise more capital?

[Jones_]

There has been more work lately.....ground floor commercial windows are going in pretty fast....

[foodpainter]

Yeah, I saw glass doors were installed, too, but driving by at 3:30 in the afternoon today not a single person was on site working.

[RaleighRob]

Saw an ad on craigslist for a rental near there...says: "From your new doorstep, it

[ncwebguy]

I drove by there yesterday and it looked like a "food services" truck was making a delivery of some sort.

There also appeared to be a row of enclosed refrigerators on one wall and some chairs in the round area closest to the corner. No "coming soon" or "now hiring" signs were posted, so I don't know how far along they are with this. But it was good to see some signs of life.

The parking lot along Brookside is still unpaved, and building behind it seemed closer to being finished but still empty.

[ChiefJoJo]

I've seen that building, and it's the kind of place that I'd like to see an urban form development, with minimal setbacks and a nice sidewalk in front to encourage walking. That area is in an established neighborhood (Oakdale) with some history to it, small bungalows and such... so one would think it would be logical that the development would match the pedestrian scale of the surroudings, but alas... we have another auto-centered development with parking frontage.

I'm sure a lot of folks who drive everywhere would read this and say it's not a big deal, but there is plenty of research (and I have penty of anecdotal info of my own) that clearly shows the relationship between the built environment and bike/walk/transit vs auto usage (and even health). If you've ever tried to navigate a large sea of parking with busy and distracted drivers on foot, you know what I mean. I just came back from Boston and it was very refreshing to see all of the pedestrian and transit oriented buildings there... I know Raleigh is not Boston, but to me, small infill developments like this are exactly the types that should be urban. Charlotte has done a pretty good job of this recently and hopefully Raleigh will get this addressed in the new comp plan.

[JeffC]

In any booming real estate market like ours, all sorts of inexperienced chumps come out of the woodwork and put on their crayon and construction paper "developer" hats...is it possible that the guy trying to get this development done is one of those types? When the slowdown comes, all the weak or undercapitalized guys go belly-up, leaving shuttered, unfinished projects in their wake. It is a very nice looking project, good scale for the neighborhood. Too bad the developer doesn't seem to have what it takes to get the project done and leased. This situation reminds me of what happened at City Market when it first opened back in late 80s...the City gave the leasing/management to some out of town firm who floundered for years because they didn't have the local knowledge/connections. Wasn't until they gave the leasing to York that City Market was able to get a critical mass of clients...

[jnzllwgr]

All__

I think it is important that the neighborhood does what it can to communicate to the owner what an unsightly burden this unfinished project is. Steve Fitzpatrick of Genford (the developer) can be contacted at 422.1749.

Through the City of Raleigh Inspections Department, citizens can lodge a complaints regarding unsafe and unsigtly practices in New Construction.

I spoke with an individual yesterday and made these few points:

1. The construction site is not secured (i.e. fenced off) providing access by any and allowing for injury to children or others who get too curious.

2. The sidewalk remains unfinished on Brookside and closed off along Glascock preventing safe pedestrian travel.

3. With the lag in construction, its an eyesore.

If others are equally concerned as I am, I recommend calling 516.2500 and lodging similar complaints. I am not sure a single complaint by one individual will stir the City enough to cite the Owner/Developer, so I would appreciate any effort to help by others.

I appreciate the neighborly interest in improving our community's environment. ChiefJoJo is a person after my heart. Most folks do not understand the importance of these things that they have spoken to. We have developed terrible habits in our development of our towns. I'd personally like to see the cost of gas escalate another $1 or so in order to force behavioral change. People will see that its not so bad to walk a mile (or more) to work. Or ride a train to RTP. In fact, it becomes easier and less worrisome. Do it for a month, watch all that undetected stress fade away.

As far as Steve Fitzpatrick and his development is concerned, it is simply a series of botched mistakes, one after another. Poor construction, poor scheduling, and a site that continues to be not only an eyesore, but a hazard. Urena Architecture should also be ashamed to have developed such an appalling design and to be involved with such a problematic developer.

All of that aside, be wary of how parking requirements drives (no pun intended) any and all of a projects site design. Our love affair with personal mobility is codified in the Raleigh Zoning Ordinance (among all towns and cities in the US). At some point, something has got to give. Write your Town Council Members.

[JeffC]

As far as Steve Fitzpatrick and his development is concerned, it is simply a series of botched mistakes, one after another. Poor construction, poor scheduling, and a site that continues to be not only an eyesore, but a hazard. Urena Architecture should also be ashamed to have developed such an appalling design and to be involved with such a problematic developer.

All of that aside, be wary of how parking requirements drives (no pun intended) any and all of a projects site design. Our love affair with personal mobility is codified in the Raleigh Zoning Ordinance (among all towns and cities in the US). At some point, something has got to give. Write your Town Council Members.

Not trying to be argumentative, but what do you find "appalling" about the design? I admit, I haven't looked closely as I go by it once a week on average (my son is at Conn). But from those casual glimpses, it is far better match to the neighborhood then, say, the building that Zelly & Ritz and Sushi Blues is in was for Glenwood South (now THAT was appalling design...). The number of parking spaces in front doesn't seem overly excessive, and the construction materials seem fairly upscale (no EIFS in sight...)

[jnzllwgr]

Not trying to be argumentative, but what do you find "appalling" about the design? I admit, I haven't looked closely as I go by it once a week on average (my son is at Conn). But from those casual glimpses, it is far better match to the neighborhood then, say, the building that Zelly & Ritz and Sushi Blues is in was for Glenwood South (now THAT was appalling design...). The number of parking spaces in front doesn't seem overly excessive, and the construction materials seem fairly upscale (no EIFS in sight...)

I appreciate the inquiry, and I hope not to wear you out with my response. This is important for the community to become familiar with their built environment and develop a richer understanding of what is possible with good design. So, thank you for asking and I hope not to offend with potential verbosity.

All of the stucco surfaces along the building parapets is EIFS. Before they smeared the grey scatch coat, you may have noticed a yellow board material, and in places some white styrofoam-like product. The yellow board is an exterior-rated gypsum board product (drywall or Sheetrock) designed for synthetic stucco systems (what EIFS is). The white styrofoam I think was used in places where detailing and shape-making was desired rather than a flat surface.

The masonry detail at the corners is improperly executed. Rather than the brick "keying" into itself (think of a dovetail joint) the bricks have been mitered. This does not allow the brick veneer to act as a whole system, putting undue stress on the brick ties holding the brick from falling outward. If too much expansion and contraction occur, the sealant at this joint will open up and an become very unsightly. I'm not sure water penetration at this point is a terrible thing, but definitely not something you design for. Brick by the way, is one of the most prolific, easily acquired and least expensive building claddings in NC. There are major brick producers both in the Sanford and Salisbury areas. While I love brick, and it does impart a wonderful quality, don't be fooled, its hardly considered upscale

The round "turret" at the corner meets the adjacent lower parapet coping in an awkward way. From the street I cannot tell, but it seems that this could be a long term problem because the materials where the curved wall and the flat coping meet cannot be overlapped (like asphalt roofing, shingle siding, etc.). The only think keeping water out is sealants which fundamentally have a limited lifetime and require additional maintenance. I'm suspicious that our building owner will be hands-on enough to keep up with this. Look for future water leaks.

Besides this, there are aesthetic considerations: The building is misproportioned. The color of the stucco/EIFS and the brick are so similar as to create a very unlively, "flat" appearance. The artificial pediments (roof pitches) are superficial and seem like they are trying too hard to be interesting.

By placing the automobile in front of the building, pedestrians now have to look over and through them to see what is going on in the building. It will inadvertantly limit window-shopping and the curious passersby from stopping in the stores. This means that the types of businesses that will thrive there are NOT what a neighborhood would like to see there: coffee shops, restaurants, etc. These stores will be like any strip mall on Capital Boulevard: Destination Oriented. A real estate office, health consultation business and antique store is what the developer told me would be going in some of the spots. Basically, when the neighbors are around at night or on the weekends, those businesss will typically be closed or offer very limited service to the community.

Once the newness wears off, this development will suffer just like many small developments do. Business will fall off, shops will close, the paint will fade. The onner will implement a face lift with new shapes and colors that have become the fashion of the day. Good buildings become good places to go and spend time when they are built well and designed well. Unfortunately, there's no formula for a good design. It takes a good client, good builder and good architect to work together on a common goal. And that, indeed, is a rare thing.

[JeffC]

Thanks. Interesting points. this neighborhood strikes me as one in transition, with an older, lower middle class population remnant left over from the 60s mixing with pretty nasty rentals (in many cases owned by the estates or heirs of their former neighbors who have died) housing a blue coller transient crowd taking advantage of cheap rent, and, finally, a hipper, younger professional class who can't afford the more upscale neighborhoods closer to downtown moving in and buying houses and fixing them up. I can't imagine the sort of neighborhood business that would appeal to all of these groups...Thus, a hip coffee shop, for example, would be dependent on drive-in traffic from a much wider radius than just the neighborhood. Take 3rd Place...I bet there are plenty of elderly residents of Hayes Barton within 5 blocks of 3rd place who have never set foot in the place and view it with some considerable suspicion, and who lament the passing of the Piggly Wiggly and the hardware store (well, I lament the passing of the hardware store at 5 pts, but thats another thread). I think some of this longing for people to open up "neighborhood businesses" in small strips like this one at Glascock are, in some cases, a bit premature.

[livinDT]

The future teenants of the grocery/deli store are holding an open house, for their abc permit request. The meeting as it stands, according to the flyer in my mailbox today, is Tuesday June 26th at 7PM. This is not what I envisioned when the N&O printed an article about this project one year ago. I am not against alcohol by any means and would love to one day be able to walk to a store and grab a beer in this historic neighborhood. But, I do not think this is the right time.

I hope that many of my neighbors agree and will come out in support of the neighborhood on June 26th.

[Bartman]

The future teenants of the grocery/deli store are holding an open house, for their abc permit request. The meeting as it stands, according to the flyer in my mailbox today, is Tuesday June 26th at 7PM. This is not what I envisioned when the N&O printed an article about this project one year ago. I am not against alcohol by any means and would love to one day be able to walk to a store and grab a beer in this historic neighborhood. But, I do not think this is the right time.

I hope that many of my neighbors agree and will come out in support of the neighborhood on June 26th.

I agree... I also received the flyer and spoke with the guy for a second. The site was originally said to be a small grocery/deli. I hope it is not heading in the direction of what is basically a convenience store with alcohol. According to the 2002 board of adjustments meeting, (quote) "Stephen Fitzpatrick (sworn), 3700 Six Forks Road, indicated their plans are to be a neighborhood market and not a convenient store. He gave a brief history of the previous tenant pointing out there were a lot of problems including alcohol sales, etc."

For those of us who have been in the neighborhood for a while (pre 2000), you'll remember the small shopping center that was previously there contained a convenience store. Between that store and the one in the previous Person Street Plaza, there were problems with litter (well, that never seems to go away), people "hanging around", and prostitutes walking between the two (we even helped Raleigh detectives locate and pick up a couple of them in front of our house)! Of course a single convenience store didn't cause these problems, but the convenience of alcohol sales sure seemed to contribute to it. So, I certainly agree that an ABC permit might not be in the best interest of the neighborhoods surrounding it.

On a side note, I just found that WRAL still has the 2000 story about the previous center burning down... Early Morning Fire Damages Raleigh Businesses

[Jones_]

It really was a trifecta back in those days, with Murdermart, this one and the Texaco at Wake Forest Rd/Glascock by Circus Burger. Having alcohol walking distance from section 8 housing often gives you the chicken and egg in the same basket. You can't really say poor folks can't have alcohol but if problems start to show up, the police crackdown should be swift and certain so that the message is clear. Personally I doubt the deli plan......does Wawa count as a deli? Thats about the best I think it could turn out to be....but I have not talked with the owner....just a hunch....

[livinDT]

I did hear some good news.........that a coffee shop on the far right corner of the property was going in (maybe dog friendly). However, based on what the developer said in the N&O one year ago, this also could be misleading.

[ChiefJoJo]

Slightly off topic, but I was just in this area yesterday evening and there is a small rental community of tiny (and I mean tiny) homes NW of Brookside/Glascock between there and WF Rd. I'm kind of amazed with the growing land values that it hasn't succumbed to a wrecking ball and redevelopment as townhomes or big single family McMansions. Anyone familiar with that little area?

[Jones_]

Slightly off topic, but I was just in this area yesterday evening and there is a small rental community of tiny (and I mean tiny) homes NW of Brookside/Glascock between there and WF Rd. I'm kind of amazed with the growing land values that it hasn't succumbed to a wrecking ball and redevelopment as townhomes or big single family McMansions. Anyone familiar with that little area?

I forget the street name but do you mean the area where the dirt road is? I know of some tiny apartments near the Boundary/Brookside name change, but they are southwest of Brookside/Glascock (I think)

[Bartman]

Maybe you mean the ones on Virginia Ave behind the Salvation army? 30-40 small apartment homes built in 1971 and owned by Kip-Dell.

See this map link and click "Hybrid"...

[livinDT]

I think those are called Brookview apartments.

[Bartman]

I think those are called Brookview apartments.

yep... you're right... here's the name and a pic... Brookview Apts.

[okdlnbr]

I live on Sasser St. and have seen the traffic from Halifax Court to all these stores for booze. I also have seen the prostitutes and murders that have happened in the rental apts. on Sasser and Virginia St. Now that Halifax Court is gone, so has the traffic to and from the alcohol supply. People are looking to find any excuse for "not in my backyard" but what they really are afraid of is change. Even if it becomes a convenience store and sells cheap booze, remember you are the customer. Go in and request pricier beer and wine, if people are loitering, call the cops and get them run off. People will quickly learn to avoid the place to loiter and the store owner will buy higher end items and stop selling crap.

As to the parking lot in front, yes it could be in the back, but it is a residential space and they need to park their cars somewhere. Also, we are in the south, an agricultural state. We have always spread out, not that this is a smart move, but so be it. Everyone who references to the north doesn't take into account that it's cold up there. People don't want to walk far to work, the grocery store, etc. They were an industrial state, closer is better. That said, the space is walkable. We walk our dog by there on the way to the dog park to see what's happening. There are sidewalks that flow from the street to the spaces without crossing any driveway.

As to the EIFS, it's not a bad product, it was poor installation practices. Just like PEX had problems with bad fittings. PEX is not bad, just how they originally choose to connect it together. I don't understand construction fully, and I do find the corner brick work weird and the windows in the round part of the convience store odd, but in general the place looks okay for the neighborhood. It's easy to stand back and slam how slow it's going, but when it opens I bet you will visit the spaces, probably walk there and not care about EIFS and such.

Lastly, to jnzllwgr, do you walk EVERYwhere you go???? Do you walk to work, the grocery store, doctors, movies, friends, clubs, dates, etc.? I don't walk everywhere, I drive to work, I drive to the grocery store, etc. and I also walk. You want gas to go up $1 so people learn to walk......they won't. They will only beotch, and we will only make a decision to buy gas or to

eat, drink or whatever. Even if gas does increase by a $1, what will that change. Are the stores going to move into downtown? Are you

going to move closer to work and walk? I doubt it! The south is not a close knit community, like NY or Boston. Yes we do need to change, need to not spread out but spread up. I remember when Raleigh to RDU had a defining break, and the same to Durham. Now it's the same.

[ncwebguy]

Halifax Court has been gone for years. The old shopping center at Brookside and Glascock burned down before that. Even when Halifax Court had residents, there were conveience stores on North Blount, Person Street Market, and the Mordecai Texaco. Not all patrons to that store were from Halifax.

Residents *and* shoppers could have parked behind the building, like the center on Whitaker Mill Road. As it is now, there is a "moat" of parking around the whole building instead of a "river" along the back. They could have had designated spaces (or garages) for the apartment/condo residents, and surface (and on-street) parking for customers and guests of the residents.

It has almost a century since any of the land in that area was used for agricultural purposes. Even in the state's agrarian past, there have been clusters of stores in small towns that grew up at trade route crossroads and train stops. They didn't have horse posts in the front *and* back of the general store/bar/inn, and it doesn't make sense now.

The building could have opened a year ago if the developer had financing and/or a clue. Now it sits like an eyesore the neighborhood doesn't deserve. Seaboard Station was a rehab project, not new construction, and took less time to finish. The fact that the developer told the N&O it would open last year is another reason no one has any hope for the project. It looks nothing like anything else nearby, and the parking only further makes it feel like a fish out of water.

I moved downtown to be within walking distance to work. I have since worked several other jobs that I can't walk to, but I can take a bus if I need to. This website is *Urban Planet*, where some people who want things to be walkable gather. Walkability is possible with the proper planning, and impossible when developers worry more about where cars will park over and above everything else.

[Jones_]

As to the parking lot in front, yes it could be in the back, but it is a residential space and they need to park their cars somewhere. Also, we are in the south, an agricultural state. We have always spread out, not that this is a smart move, but so be it. Everyone who references to the north doesn't take into account that it's cold up there. People don't want to walk far to work, the grocery store, etc. They were an industrial state, closer is better. That said, the space is walkable. We walk our dog by there on the way to the dog park to see what's happening. There are sidewalks that flow from the street to the spaces without crossing any driveway.

Being residential bears no relation to having parking in front, see Cameron Park as an example. Development patterns have spread out only since the invention of the automobile, and has nothing to do with argriculture. I would say people in the South are generally more averse to walking places than northerners. The criticisms are less about it being walkable and more about how it presents itself to the street, but regardless of sidewalks that approach the building, there is a pedestrian/automobile conflict at the driveway...its inherent anytime vehicle access is provided to a site.

[jnzllwgr]

Lastly, to jnzllwgr, do you walk EVERYwhere you go???? Do you walk to work, the grocery store, doctors, movies, friends, clubs, dates, etc.? I don't walk everywhere, I drive to work, I drive to the grocery store, etc. and I also walk. You want gas to go up $1 so people learn to walk......they won't. They will only beotch, and we will only make a decision to buy gas or to

eat, drink or whatever. Even if gas does increase by a $1, what will that change. Are the stores going to move into downtown? Are you

going to move closer to work and walk? I doubt it! The south is not a close knit community, like NY or Boston. Yes we do need to change, need to not spread out but spread up. I remember when Raleigh to RDU had a defining break, and the same to Durham. Now it's the same.

I live in downtown Raleigh so that I CAN walk to work. I walk 2 miles, one way, each day. Its a great way to see parts of my city that I normally would not pay attention to. I NEVER see anyone else do what I'm doing, which is unfortunate.

Close knit, dense town planning is not a northern phenomenon and I would suspect that many Southerners would argue with you on how close knit their communities were when they grew up. Look at the historic centers of Edenton, Wilmington, Rocky Mount, Little Washington, Asheville, Lenoir, Hickory, etc. etc. People elected to live close together for community interaction, support as well as to be close to goods and services.

Yes, things have changed and we could say "so be it", but that doesn't make it right or a healthy way to live. As I said, I walk 4 miles a day to get to and from work. When Capital City Grocery was open, I was able to pick up food on a regular basis on the way home. Does that mean that I do not get in a car? Of course not, but its a question of the proper balance for me and a choice that I have made to challenge myself to be more responsible with the resources required to sustain my lifestyle.