How does SEPTA compare to other cities?

[UrbaniDesDev]

I love to see the major developments happening in Philly. Will the mass tarnsit hold up. It really seemed out dated on my last visit. I would love to see it become a more visitor friendly system. Is there any plans for developing a more comprehensive plan? It seems very disjointed right now.

[*Sweetkisses*]

SEPTA sucks big time. I hate it. As big a city as Philly is, it's a disgrace to each and every Philadelphian. We deserve better!!!!

[PghUSA]

Sweet please expand on that, to be honest the last time I took SEPTA was in 2000 or 2001 it was decent, nothing to write home about though, what would u do to improve it, anyone else have suggestions?

[UrbaniDesDev]

With all the development now going on. Its time to rethink the entire SEPTA system. The kind of development going on in Philly is, uniquely, not auto based and will require a first class mass transit system. It concerns me

[Jerseyman4]

On occasion on the local news (3, 6, 10), ive heard about the funding cuts and limited services. Philadelphia is the 6th largest metro in the U.S., it deserves better than that.

[UrbaniDesDev]

I must say, I hate how Jersey has been left out of the main lines of both NYC and Philadelphia. The greatest thing of DCs subway is, it connects DC Maryland and Virginia indiscriminately. It is a region, the more it is bonded together the better they will be

[Jerseyman4]

By train, nothing is seamless travel out of NJ unless your on amtrak acelea between DC and Boston.

[urbanophile]

I must say, I hate how Jersey has been left out of the main lines of both NYC and Philadelphia. The greatest thing of DCs subway is, it connects DC Maryland and Virginia indiscriminately. It is a region, the more it is bonded together the better they will be

The DC metro is also jointly owned by DC and the counties of MD and VA. Its one of the few multi-state public transit entities and, I believe, was created by the Federal government. Its the exception to the rule.

In contrast, SEPTA doesn't integrate NJ b/c its funded by the PA counties and the state of PA and, I believe, was created by the state. NJ, as you probably know, funds its own transit system which covers the entire state (NJ Transit). Having one metro-wide transit system for Philadelphia would require NJ and PA to cede control which is unlikely. As it stands, NJ and PA have enough difficulty cooperating in running the Delaware River Port Auhtority (which runs PATCO).

[stinkweed]

With all the development now going on. Its time to rethink the entire SEPTA system. The kind of development going on in Philly is, uniquely, not auto based and will require a first class mass transit system. It concerns me

I think the development is more auto based than you might think. Nothing gets built in Philly unless the parking is up to suburban snuff. Take a stroll through graduate hospital and see all the new townhouses with big ugly garage fronts. Some people seem to think GH will be one of the best neighborhoods in the city in a few years. I think it will be wall to wall garage with far less foot traffic than most of its neighbors.

Septa is poorly managed, under funded and corrupt. How do we expect it to change when we continually re-elect the same corrupt governments that don't give a crap about anything but lining their pockets.

[UrbaniDesDev]

http://www.pacleansweep.com/

Wake up Pa!!!

[PghUSA]

Urbani, that site was great! You should post that in the general and Pgh subforum lol.

Those folks must love fast eddie. My hope would that we could get some Ross Perot (what is Paul O'Neil doing after his stint at Treasury and turning around Alcoa for 20 years?) types that although bad long term public servants will instantly give Pa. cred on Wall Street, Mad Ave, and maybe even Hollywood Blvd. and finally start running this state in true 21st century mode--like CONSOLIDATION for all the metros!

One can always hope, after all Rossy boy married a Greensburg, Pa. girl, has to be like minded Pennsylvanians floating around out there!

[stinkweed]

There was a good article in one of the local papers a couple weeks back regarding this movement. It rightly points out that the movement want the indiscriminant removal of all incumbant politicians. So in otherwords they want the good gone with the bad. This makes little sense because we'd be left with political coas. I do however agree that the current direction of government in PA suck so maybe inexperience would be better than the same old crap we've gotten for my entire life time. Maybe some day I'll be able to buy a case of beer on sunday.

[Jerseyman4]

Maybe some day I'll be able to buy a case of beer on sunday.

And i thought South Carolina was crazy

[stinkweed]

And i thought South Carolina was crazy

you think that's crazy, you can buy two 12 packs but you have to take them out the front door separately.

[CorgiMatt]

I think the development is more auto based than you might think. Nothing gets built in Philly unless the parking is up to suburban snuff. Take a stroll through graduate hospital and see all the new townhouses with big ugly garage fronts. Some people seem to think GH will be one of the best neighborhoods in the city in a few years. I think it will be wall to wall garage with far less foot traffic than most of its neighbors.

Septa is poorly managed, under funded and corrupt. How do we expect it to change when we continually re-elect the same corrupt governments that don't give a crap about anything but lining their pockets.

SEPTA? The name evokes an image of a septic tank to me. I visited Philadelphia in 1983. I was struck by the charming narrow alleys lined by tall buildings. I have often thought I could live there. I have been told, though, that the city government is corrupt. It must be true according to your port. They need to change the name of the mass transit system for one thing.

[Jerseyman4]

They need to change the name of the mass transit system for one thing.

South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority dosent sound that bad

[CorgiMatt]

South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority dosent sound that bad

SEPTA does.

[PghUSA]

Having spent lots of time in Orlando, (actually the much acclaimed Transit director Paul Skoletus--currently a national VIP consultant--got his start in Orlando "TCT"--tri-county-transit--before running Pittsburgh's transit for a lil over a decade) I know they under Skouletus changed from TCT or TriCoun to Lynx, no rymth or reason, just savy marketing, they realized that they were in a "marketplace" and could do much to change the city's image internationally with just a name change of its area transit. Similarly Pittsburgh has been changing over from that hilarious Al Franken character PAT (it was Franken right?) to Gold or RideGold. Septa should meet the 21st century and get out of the "WE'RE THE PHONE COMPANY" (ok another SNL reference from wayyyy back in the day) 70's when transit was another cog in the housing dev., bland interstates, etc. big govt. knows best days.

[Recchia]

Maybe some day I'll be able to buy a case of beer on sunday.

We had this same archaic law in Rhode Island until just last year...thank God they finally realized how stupid and outdated it was...

[wanderer34]

I must say, I hate how Jersey has been left out of the main lines of both NYC and Philadelphia. The greatest thing of DCs subway is, it connects DC Maryland and Virginia indiscriminately. It is a region, the more it is bonded together the better they will be

What do you mean "left out"??? North Jersey is well-connected by the Path and NJ Transit commuter trains. South Jersey, although there's a major lack of coverage, has the Patco system and the Atlantic City line. Personally, there should be more coverage on the PATCO system to Woodbury, Deptford, Cherry Hill, and Maple Shade, and NJT coverage to Cumberland County, Salem County, Jersey Shore towns (Ocean City, Cape May, Toms River, etc., and Burlington County). You're right about the quote in bold. Unfortunately, the Delaware Valley region is way more separated than up in NYC.

As for SEPTA, it's the WORST transit agency if not in the US, in the WORLD, PERIOD!!! I'm just sick of all the excuses I keep on hearing about how they won't extend to Reading because the tracks west of Norristown isn't electrified, no service to the Lehigh Valley (where at least 30% of it's residents commute to Phila), the lack of NJT commuter train service to SJ, only two subway lines in the sixth largest city in America, no further subway extensions in Phila (look at Boston, Chicago, DC, LA, Miami, Dallas, Houston, St Louis, SF, and even Atlanta. The difference is that they're all trying to expand their mass transit systems while Phila is stuck in the dark ages). It's very frustrating to live in such an urban city like Phila, but have a lack of coverage in this city, to put it in shorter words.

[urbanophile]

What do you mean "left out"??? North Jersey is well-connected by the Path and NJ Transit commuter trains. South Jersey, although there's a major lack of coverage, has the Patco system and the Atlantic City line. Personally, there should be more coverage on the PATCO system to Woodbury, Deptford, Cherry Hill, and Maple Shade, and NJT coverage to Cumberland County, Salem County, Jersey Shore towns (Ocean City, Cape May, Toms River, etc., and Burlington County). You're right about the quote in bold. Unfortunately, the Delaware Valley region is way more separated than up in NYC.

That's because NJ is focused on its northern areas. That's where the majority of the votes are. I think South Jersey would have better transit if all the money weren't spent up north. As for PATCO, it was origianlly deisgned to have three branches with one branch to Moorestown and another branch to Deptford (in addition to the current line to Lindenwold). As usual, they ran out of money. Then NJ transit basically took over the plans for the unbuilt lines and re-planned them as light rail but residents in Moorestown fought it tooth and nail and Deptford was not enthusiastic. After that failed, they used the money allocated to build the River Line instead (which I am hoping will serve as a prototype for future NJ Transit rail lines in South Jersey).

As for SEPTA, it's the WORST transit agency if not in the US, in the WORLD, PERIOD!!! I'm just sick of all the excuses I keep on hearing about how they won't extend to Reading because the tracks west of Norristown isn't electrified, no service to the Lehigh Valley (where at least 30% of it's residents commute to Phila), the lack of NJT commuter train service to SJ, only two subway lines in the sixth largest city in America, no further subway extensions in Phila (look at Boston, Chicago, DC, LA, Miami, Dallas, Houston, St Louis, SF, and even Atlanta. The difference is that they're all trying to expand their mass transit systems while Phila is stuck in the dark ages). It's very frustrating to live in such an urban city like Phila, but have a lack of coverage in this city, to put it in shorter words.

The problem with the subway is that the Broad Street Line has been steadily loosing passengers for decades, tahnks to the depopulation of North Philly. As such, it is a *major* money drain. Had it been planned today, it probably would have been built as above-ground light rail instead. Anyway, because of it being a money drain, SEPTA is tied down in expanding its system. Had the Broad Street Line never been built, I can easily see them using the extra money building a line to NE Philly and perhaps a few other lines.

As origianlly planned, Philadelphia was supposed to have a much larger subway. The PATCO line in Center City was meant to be a subway loop around the business district with tunnels running under Arch and 17th (which is why there are subway grates on Arch Street). Also, there was supposed to be branches of the Broad Street Line going up to NE Philly along the Roosevelt Boulevard (there was a built but unused subway station under the old Sears) and along Henry Ave. (the Henry Ave. bridge over Lincoln Drive has a second level underneath the roadway for the unbuilt subway). Then there was supposed to be a line running along Woodland Ave. The problem was that after WWII, ridership on the subway system declined dramatically (mostly due to declining ridership on the Broad Street Line - the Market/Frankford has done well) and that has cuased it to be viewed more as a white elephant than as something that should be expanded.

The other problem with the subway, of course, is that, unlike DC, Atlanta, and a few other places, the subway doesn't extend to the suburbs. In many ways, it doesn't need to since that's the territory of regional rail. However, because it doesn't extend to the suburbs, it doesn't extend to the high growth areas which would demand the subway. Instead, it traverses through areas like West and NOrth Philly that have seen nothing but population decline in recent decades.

[Jerseyman4]

South Jersey does not get the same treatment as central and north jersey does. Until the majority of big time politicians that are from south jersey are making the decesions in Trenton, south jersey will not see its day where more money can be allocated to build/rebuild new highway and rail projects to improve mobility.

[wanderer34]

You're right about NJ being way too biased on it's northern side (even though that's where a large majority of it's population lives), and I hope I responded to your post in the correct manor. What I'm saying is that rather than spend a lot of money on the glorified light rail, they should've spend a fraction of that money bringing back some of the old routes by returning the commuter heavy rail service and rehabbing the old stations that the Seashore lines used to own. PATCO should've been expanded to it's respective towns by now.

And of course Phila's subway system should've been way bigger than what it already is. The Norristown and Chestnut Hill Routes should've been integrated into the subway system, and the MFL should've been extended to Bustleton, along with the Fox Chase and even another route along State Rd to Bensalem. Even the MFL could've been extended to Darby and the BSL to Jenkintown and even to Essington. But livng with a corrupt gov't killed what could've been: one of the biggest subway systems in the world! All I'm saying is that I agree with every word you're saying!

[billpa]

Two things:

First...While I don't disagree with a lot that's been said here about SEPTA- there was a story on the wires yesterday about getting service back up to Quakertown (I think on the R6, but don't quote me on that)...how long that'll take is yet to be seen. Also, I've heard residents of other cities whine about their local transit system as well, so that's just an urban pasttime.

Second....You CAN purchase a case of beer on Sundays in PA...the new law went into effect last year.

[urbanophile]

Two things:

First...While I don't disagree with a lot that's been said here about SEPTA- there was a story on the wires yesterday about getting service back up to Quakertown (I think on the R6, but don't quote me on that)...how long that'll take is yet to be seen. Also, I've heard residents of other cities whine about their local transit system as well, so that's just an urban pasttime.

Second....You CAN purchase a case of beer on Sundays in PA...the new law went into effect last year.

That would be the R5. The Qukertown branch would branch off of the Doylestown line. The problem is that the proposal calls for hte line to be separate from SEPTA. ORigianlly, there was talk about SEPTA extending the line to Quakertown but that seemed to have fallen through. Other projects that had been talked about within SEPTA (but have yet to see hte light of day) are an extension (re-extension) of the R3 to Wawa and a re-extension of the R8 to Newtown (Bucks Co.).