Do you have an 'endgame' when it comes to DT GR?

[AlexPKeaton]

I never liked Austin, although its not as bad as Florida.

Heh, yeah, I really dislike most of Florida with the exception of Tallahassee which is a beautiful city. I like the panhandle area quite a bit. The edges of Austin are pretty sprawly (what city isn't?), but the UT campus and downtown are pretty cool. Plus it's in the middle of the hill country which makes for nice motorcycling.

-nb

[GRDadof3]

Plus Austin has the SouthbySouthwest Festival where many a famous band got their start (Blues Traveler, Dave Matthews, John Mayer, and many others), plus they have Austin City Limits on PBS. I love that show!

[evac311]

One point for me and it dosent involve developments, skyscrapers, or even light rail... is racial/lifestyle acceptance. I think if we all come together, sit down, shake hands and say "hey" were not at all that different, then something might just get done. Thats not to say that 'stuff' isn't getting done, but this degree of change must occur at this pace.

Some people tend to equate GR as the most racist city or a racist city, if it is infact, then maybe we can capture the hearts and minds of folks by saying to everyone that we will no longer accept hate. I mean not just GR but the suburbs, if all of us can just do that one thing everyone will take notice.

This shouldn't be some hippie liberal pipedream, but a common understanding to show compasion between eachother.

The way you talk about us, I'd think we were living in Birmingham in 1965. I think most people in Grand Rapids are accepting of people of different culture or race. I have NEVER heard anyone make the observation that people from Grand Rapids are racist. Is it your contention, Rizzo, that a minority can't get a loan in Grand Rapids? Or that a homosexual person can't find a job? You know there are laws about that.

maybe we can capture the hearts and minds of folks by saying to everyone that we will no longer accept hate. I mean not just GR but the suburbs

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can say that personally, I don't want to be told by someone else that I'm not allowed to hate. Where did this idea come from that the feeling of anger is not an acceptable human emotion? I remind all who are reading this to look at the smilies if you don't believe me. (They're not all smiles.) I think GR would actually lose population if a zero hate ordinance were enacted. I'd probably move to Ann Arbor. That being said, I am a Christian, so I believe in treating everyone around me as I myself would want to be treated.

I grew up on the SW side of Burton and Division, near the Bottle House. If you want to see the power of diversity working in our city, that's a great place to start. My family is white, our neighbors to the west were Hispanic. To the east, African. Across the street to the north was the family of my sister's best friend, they were Native American. We all respected one another. I even read an article in the press a few weeks ago that showed that my former neighborhood saw the highest increase in home values in the city over the last few years, which means people in Grand Rapids are embracing diversity, not running from it.

Rizzo, we're living in the 21st century here. The civil rights movement is over, and while I understand that some people in America still harbor prejudices, it is no longer part of the majority mindset. Perhaps what needs to happen in Grand Rapids is for us to stop dwelling on the past, and start focusing on the future-both in our own lives, and as a community. If we keep hammering about a racism crisis that doesn't exist, we are going to drive people away from our city, remember, people from other cities do read this forum. Would you want to move here if you just read what you posted? Logistically, we need to figure out a way to get some more big name companies in here. If you really think about it, everything we talk about on this board is possible because of our strong spirit of entrepreneurship. The most notable example being the DeVos family. Think about it. The success and vision of one family has been the difference between the Grand Rapids of 1970, and the Grand Rapids of tommorow. Smile, better days are ahead.

[GRguy]

Evac:

Sorry to inform you, but there is no law protecting homosexuals from job descrimination

[PBJ]

I"m going to ask.. and hopefully it's followed even though I'm not a Mod here. If we're going to go down this road, which over the past year I've been posting here has been brought up numerous times and most times in the past has turned into a flame war, to start your own thread and not take this one way off topic to the point of people not wanting to read it.... thanks....

(sorry for the near run-on sentence there)

[torgo]

I agree PBJ. I was gonna break out the glass o' beer myself!

To bring this back on topic, I would have to say that I'd be happy when GR has that truly big-city "feel". To me, it doesn't have that yet. In other cities, the buildings are big, but so are the signs, the streets and the sidewalks. I think we are moving in the right direction, but GR doesn't "feel" like a major city yet. I would also like a strong tourism industry here.

That being said, the not-so-big feel is also one of the aspects I like about it here. I guess I'm torn.

[mejane]

If you really think about it, everything we talk about on this board is possible because of our strong spirit of entrepreneurship. The most notable example being the DeVos family. Think about it. The success and vision of one family has been the difference between the Grand Rapids of 1970, and the Grand Rapids of tommorow. Smile, better days are ahead.

[PBJ]

I agree PBJ. I was gonna break out the glass o' beer myself!

To bring this back on topic, I would have to say that I'd be happy when GR has that truly big-city "feel". To me, it doesn't have that yet. In other cities, the buildings are big, but so are the signs, the streets and the sidewalks. I think we are moving in the right direction, but GR doesn't "feel" like a major city yet. I would also like a strong tourism industry here.

That being said, the not-so-big feel is also one of the aspects I like about it here. I guess I'm torn.

I know what you mean about the big city feel. When I go to Chicago, or was D/t San Antonio, it felt like I was really in the city... I think it's because the "heart" of where you go is surrounded by buildings. Right now, due to our lovely surface lots, you have a lot of open space exposing you to large quantities of open sky (no matter where you are), which takes away the feeling of being "in the city".

[Prankster]

I know what you mean about the big city feel. When I go to Chicago, or was D/t San Antonio, it felt like I was really in the city... I think it's because the "heart" of where you go is surrounded by buildings. Right now, due to our lovely surface lots, you have a lot of open space exposing you to large quantities of open sky (no matter where you are), which takes away the feeling of being "in the city".

The only place I get the "big city feel" downtown is on Ottawa between Monroe Center and Pearl Street. It offers a nice street wall of buildings. But that is even ruined when you go further south and encounter the Lyon and Ottawa Ellis parking lot.

[torgo]

I know what you mean about the big city feel. When I go to Chicago, or was D/t San Antonio, it felt like I was really in the city... I think it's because the "heart" of where you go is surrounded by buildings. Right now, due to our lovely surface lots, you have a lot of open space exposing you to large quantities of open sky (no matter where you are), which takes away the feeling of being "in the city".

I will be in San Antonio sooon! New Orleans is the same way. The downtown area seemed just HUUUGE. And when I got back to GR, it felt like "this is it?" Granted, its kinda like apples and oranges.

[mejane]

I think the perception of GR persists of being a city that lacks sophistication.

How you change that can start with many of the ideas presented here.

[GRDadof3]

I will be in San Antonio sooon! New Orleans is the same way. The downtown area seemed just HUUUGE. And when I got back to GR, it felt like "this is it?" Granted, its kinda like apples and oranges.

That's funny. I always feel a sense of "peace" when I arrive back in Grand Rapids after travelling. As much as I love big buildings and cities, Grand Rapids "fits" me better. I can get my arms around it (the control freak in me).

edit

And that's all I'll say on that.

[Rizzo]

Maybe my topic about race was way off, sorry...

Evac -

I understand you have frustration. Hate is an emotion. Yes, you should have the right to express it. Do you have the right to express hate in any form that will create more hate? No. The law says so...

Race to me is an issue because I have experienced racism here. The problem is you seem to only have one experience, and that comes from a place of racial diversity. Maybe this clouds your notion of hardly any racism in Metro GR.

I can also tell you where I was reared. Burton/Godfrey and also Grandville Ave. area, born and raised for over half my life. I never experienced racism there. I did a stint out in Wyoming, Kentwood that is where I formed an opinion of racism in Metro Grand Rapids. Growing up with black, Hispanic family and friends I never knew color would be the subject of hate. In my 'hood it was ok to be of color. It was even more ok to be interracial.

If racism wasn't as prevalent or extensive as one might think, then why would a television station devote such an in depth look at racism in W. Michigan. Why would Grand Rapids have so many Christan Organizations devoted to racial acceptance? If such a problem didn't exists why would there be any institutions around trying to remedy the problem?

I won't reply to any rebuttals or quirky one liner comments.

If someone hates, fine, but just stay away from the microphone.

Quit hattin'

[NorthCoast]

I think the perception of GR persists of being a city that lacks sophistication.

How you change that can start with many of the ideas presented here.

You can't build a city souly off of sophistication. That is an overrated idea. Great cities of the past weren't built on sophistication. They were built with good land use practices, planning, civic involvement, economic/political needs, and the overall benefit of the citizens in mind. Once you start getting too eclectic you begin to alienate alot of ordinary citizens. Most people in this area don't go to watch the symphony, don't have GR Public Library cards, and don't frequent the art museum. Should they? Yes, but at the same time it is naieve to expect everyone to appreciate, understand, or enjoy it. I've seen a lot of modernist and post-modernist work whether it be sculptures, buildings, or what have you and despite all this exposure to it the fact remains that I just am not a fan of it. If Grand Rapids ever wants to put itself on the map it will need to continue to diversify its reason for existence, a place where the renaissance man and Joe 6-Pack can go and both enjoy even if its not the same venue or experience. A truely great city is one that is rich in culture, education, business, industry, recreation, sports, residential living, and retail. There is nothing wrong with sophistication or being sophisticated. I just feel like sometimes this mindset doesn't do much for promoting diversity in growth, population, and usage with in an urban area.

Sorry to stray off topic. This wasn't meant as a personal attack by any means...just a humble opinion.

[mejane]

No offense taken to a thoughtful post.

However, Sophisticated as defined by my pocket Mirriam Webster:

1. Complex 2. made worldly-wise by wide experience.

3. Intellectually appealing

I think GR goes far to appeal to blue collar entertainment.

I think GR goes far to appeal to the symphony crowd.

I think GR has far to go to appeal to educated people in the medical

fields, in tech fields, in artistic fields - that level of sophistication that

appeals to a wide range of talent and creativity, age, gender,

diversity and income.

And while I agree that a city can't be built solely on 'sophistication',

it can be an appealing dimension added when the other systems

are in place. In fact, I think it is impossible to build a city on

something intangible. Sophistication arises with experience.

[mejane]

A truely great city is one that is rich in culture, education, business, industry, recreation, sports, residential living, and retail

I think this IS sophistication, and we're slowly on our way.

[evac311]

I'll know we're there when you can't see River House because all those darn buildings are blocking the view.

[PBJ]

I'll know we're there when you can't see River House because all those darn buildings are blocking the view.

Dubai.. beautiful, twoshort and I were JUST discussing this.. you folks need to peel yourself away from our river thread and checkout that part of the forum sometime.. it is AMAZING what developers are doing out that way.. CRAZY CRAZY beyond a lot of people wildest dreams (unless you watch Travel or Discover channel a lot)

[GRCentro]

Am I the only one who shudders when looking at photos of Dubai? Big buildings are impressive and all, but I would take GR over Dubai any day. The "downtown" is essentially two rows of towers seperated by an enormous highway -- not terribly pedestrian friendly. Then there are themed mini-cites and skyscraper office parks, suburban style. Each new development tries to stand out by being bigger and more outlandish than the last. Now they are even building artificial reefs for surfing and artifical coast lines shaped like palm trees.

Authentic urban fabric? Environmental concern?

I wonder if the city of Dubai even has a planning department.

[snoogit]

Am I the only one who shudders when looking at photos of Dubai? Big buildings are impressive and all, but I would take GR over Dubai any day. The "downtown" is essentially two rows of towers seperated by an enormous highway -- not terribly pedestrian friendly. Then there are themed mini-cites and skyscraper office parks, suburban style. Each new development tries to stand out by being bigger and more outlandish than the last. Now they are even building artificial reefs for surfing and artifical coast lines shaped like palm trees.

Authentic urban fabric? Environmental concern?

I wonder if the city of Dubai even has a planning department.

I am with you, towers are nice, but urban cohesion is much more important to me.

[torgo]

Am I the only one who shudders when looking at photos of Dubai? Big buildings are impressive and all, but I would take GR over Dubai any day. The "downtown" is essentially two rows of towers seperated by an enormous highway -- not terribly pedestrian friendly. Then there are themed mini-cites and skyscraper office parks, suburban style. Each new development tries to stand out by being bigger and more outlandish than the last. Now they are even building artificial reefs for surfing and artifical coast lines shaped like palm trees.

Authentic urban fabric? Environmental concern?

I wonder if the city of Dubai even has a planning department.

Yah, I agree. That picture looks like Rivertown Parkway x 3000

"How do I get to Red Lobster?"

"Its the third ninety-story glass tower on the left. Just past the TGI Fridays."

[tringr]

GR will have "made it" when at least 12,000 to 15,000 people live downtown from all economic classes and it is possible to Really LIVE DT w/o running off to meijers every weekend. Not enough sustainability and viability right now for residents to stay DT for weeks on end, if desired.

[GR_Urbanist]

I think at good indicator is when a store opens on Monroe Center, it doesnt make the front page of the Press.