Berry Farms Development, the Cool Springs of South Williamson County

[jice]

Wow, multiple DT areas. Just for jice, STL has two DT areas, the second one is Clayton. Offices, condos, restaurants, street-life, Check it out...

http://www.ci.clayton.mo.us/

East STL says they have a DT too. Note: no picture attached, none needed (trust me).

I have heard Clayton is a pretty nice place... I guess its comparable to Franklin down here.

I'm more familiar with the IL side, and a little of the southern 'burbs of STL. East STL may have a downtown... but its definitely nothin to brag about lol.

Fairview Heights/O'Fallon is probably a good example of suburban sprawl i'd say...

Anywayz... we're sposed to be talkin about Nashville I guess lol

[Relient J]

I respect your passion, BnaBreaker. I'm not pro-sprawl either, but I don't see it as quite as much of a problem as you do. Most people aren't living in single family homes on five-acre lots. Certainly that's not the case in Murfreesboro (I don't know about Williamson County).

In Murfreesboro we've got developments such as those in the Cason Ln/St. Andrews area. There you have hundreds of single family homes on tiny lots right next to each other that go on and on. It's clearly an inefficient system (I heard a city official on WGNS admit that they'd made a mistake with the area) but its inexpensive, and therefore understandably popular.

We've definitely got a lot of deep discussion going on in this thread. However, just judging by the amount of back and forth from the several posters involved, I think it's a good thing we're getting this out in the open.

[linclink]

linclink, I'm going to hunt you down and stay w/ you while on vactaion!!! Just kidding, no feelings hurt. I'm the type that can agrue a point w/ anyone while having a beer!! I respect anyone's opinion as long as they have valid reasons...

Hehehehe... well if you want a tour of South Florida... hahahahahha

Don't worry... I too love to argue a point... but never hold a grudge. In fact thats probably the one thing that can piss me off about a person... knowing that they DO hold a grudge over a disagreement on issues... so its nice to know we can go back and forth on these issues!!!

[linclink]

I would give Murf. a shot for a DT area. Believe it or not, I think there is a remote chance that Elm Hill/Donnelson could achieve this. West End/Mid-town will happen. But not Brentwood/CS/Franklin because the mentality is just not there.

You see... to me.. West End/Mid-town is much more sprawly (in the sense that its a second downtown almost, and IN the city of Nashville... and thus taking away from DOWNTOWN), than say a downtown in Murfreesboro or CS. But I guess thats just me....

As for the food thing... yeah I'm big on food too... hehehe.. We LOVED the food in Nashville.... just for some reason, the 2 different chinese places I ate from (one was a take-out place, the other was the only restaurant open in Nashville on Christmas Day... not even our Hotel was serving food that day!!!! I'm a Christian, but boy was I glad they weren't... if they were, I'd have died of STARVATION!!! Not even gas stations were open... heck I didn't even see any police cars on the streets that day. We went walking in Downtown... there was just us and the Homeless!!!! hahahahahahaha). But anyways... all the other food was really good!!!!

[smeagolsfree]

Just to add some more fuel to the fire is this article from the Tennessean today talking about the office boom in Williamson County.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/603010378

[Lexy]

Just to add some more fuel to the fire is this article from the Tennessean today talking about the office boom in Williamson County.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/603010378

The Tennessean stradles the fence when it comes to urban development versus suburbs. They seem to understand that the rich and famous prefer the campus of Franklin while the less rich and famous prefer the glamour of downtown. They walk that line and stray not too far off of it. Too bad they can't grow a pair and decide which one they want to support. Urban development, or Atlanta. I hate our paper with a deep inconsiderate passion. They spend too much time trying to get us to believe their side of the story while never really giving us the WHOLE true story, unbiased.

[Lexy]

This should still put the fear of God in city leaders in Nashville. They have got to react to the market better. Overall, prices are cheaper in Franklin because of land and such, but it is the responsibility of Nashville to make themselves seem a better choice than the idot developers in Williamson County make it seem. I seriously believe that Nashville leaders have ceased to recruit business to the downtown core as a whole. Sure, they put out feelers and stuff, but they find it easier to park these corporations out in Franklin than park them in the core, absorbing the tax base created by them. That is a lack of vision and leadership on the part of our government and its agencies. Shame on you if you read this board! You are not giving the tax base what it deserves, a chance!

[ATLBrain]

I'm afraid that the Nashville area has a natural proclivity toward sprawl.

I do think it helps to remember that Nashville is in the middle of numerous semi-important county seats and other burgs of decent size (at least by historical standards). This doesn't even include the new bedrooms that have popped up in the last 30-40 years. So there are a number of locales that would make some sort of "growing together" inevitable.

Still, the effect is that those towns are (and have been) fairly self-sufficient for decades (if not 100+ years). In fact, I believe M'boro used to be the state capital. So, within that context, it's only natural that they will flex their newly invigorated economic muscle.

The above, combined with the rocky terrain and other natural barriers in the region will tend to promote sprawl. Plus, with Nashville's own inability to keep existing businesses (either through tax policy or availability of office product or other reasons) from moving to Williamson and other counties, it will be an uphill battle to see offices built in the core.

I believe it will take a developer with balls to get out and take the lead. The bigger it will be, the more enticing to prospective tenants. There may be several months of high vacancy (personally I don't think it will happen with the relo pipeline), but it's inevitable that the space would fill up. There are already lots of firms in your DT looking for space.

I think that Nashville's DT still has many advantages over Franklin. Especially as housing in Williamson goes higher and higher. DT is centralized, and it's more accessible to other growing areas where executives would like to live such as Hendersonville, Robertson, and Mt. Juliet. Location, location, location.

I may be simple minded about this, but build it (office towers) and they will come.

[rocky top buzz]

As I continue to reade this thread, I get the impression that those of you who are opposed to suburbs are really more opposed to people with land. Why does everyone have to live on 12' x 12' lots? I live on a half acre, and that's huge for La Vernge, but I'd love 2 acres! Is there a problem with having a large lot?

[Relient J]

The Tennessean stradles the fence when it comes to urban development versus suburbs. They seem to understand that the rich and famous prefer the campus of Franklin while the less rich and famous prefer the glamour of downtown. They walk that line and stray not too far off of it. Too bad they can't grow a pair and decide which one they want to support. Urban development, or Atlanta. I hate our paper with a deep inconsiderate passion. They spend too much time trying to get us to believe their side of the story while never really giving us the WHOLE true story, unbiased.

I understand your concern to have Nashville promoted, but that isn't an editorial that smeagolsfree posted a link to. It's a news story. I don't think there's a single journalist who is able to be completely unbiased, but wouldn't you agree that it's a laudible goal for journalist to be unbiased? The editorial page is the page for bias.

[BnaBreaker]

As I continue to reade this thread, I get the impression that those of you who are opposed to suburbs are really more opposed to people with land. Why does everyone have to live on 12' x 12' lots? I live on a half acre, and that's huge for La Vernge, but I'd love 2 acres! Is there a problem with having a large lot?

If that's what you think then you completely misunderstand the position of the anti-sprawl people. I'll give you my position in a nutshell once again, even though I've already posted it in this thread before. Suburbs? Suburb is just a name. Being a suburb doesn't mean you have to whore yourself out to developers just looking for the cheapest way out. It also doesn't mean you have to do everything in your power to compete with the central city. Those are both distortions. I am NOT against the concept of a suburb. They've been around for millenia. I don't at all mind pleasant single-family home communities as long as they have good connectivity, access to SOME form of transportation other than the car, and a few other qualities. I'm against unchecked, unplanned sprawl that eats up the countryside like a virus and has no real purpose other than to make the developer a quick dime. Nobody said anything whatsoever about confining people to 12'X12' lots. Please don't put words in my mouth. It's fine to want 2 acres...but entire subdivisions of isolated homes with massive yards is just totally unneccesary. If you want 2 acres of land then go buy some land in the country somewhere. I could personally care less. Like I said, I have nothing whatsoever against farms, small towns, or well planned suburbs. Infact, I want to protect those environments. This isn't about making everyone live in the city at all.

Relient, I respect your opinions as well, and I see where you are coming from, but it goes so far beyond how tightly packed the homes are. That is merely one of many problems with the typical subdivision. I guess there really isn't anywhere else to go in our discussion...but it is a proven fact that unchecked and unplanned suburban sprawl has devastating affects on the environment, on our dependance on oil, on our social networks, on our relationships with people, even on health etc. Of course it is totally possible to live in suburbia and find away to get around most of these things...but it does promote them.

[Lexy]

I understand your concern to have Nashville promoted, but that isn't an editorial that smeagolsfree posted a link to. It's a news story. I don't think there's a single journalist who is able to be completely unbiased, but wouldn't you agree that it's a laudible goal for journalist to be unbiased? The editorial page is the page for bias.

I have written news copy for a living, and it CAN be written without bias. Nuff said about that.

Also, if you think that the Tennessean isn't biased, then you do live too far out in the suburbs in a box secluded from reality. LOL!! The only REAL, unbiased news source for Urban Nashville is the City Paper.

[LA_TN]

I have heard Clayton is a pretty nice place... I guess its comparable to Franklin down here.

Fairview Heights/O'Fallon is probably a good example of suburban sprawl i'd say...

Definitely no on Clayton vs. Franklin. Clayton has a skyline and about 20 mid-rise buildings for starters. Most range 15-25 floors around 200-300 ft tall. If a high-rise is 300 ft, then Clayton has a few. The Plaza, completed a few years ago, is the tallest at 400 ft. This area is more like a smaller DT Nashville for comparasion. They have street-level retail, shops, restaurants, offices, etc. It's the new DT area of STL - very nice.

O'Fallon is not an accident, it is a result of the Air Force Base. But yes, I would liken that area to a smaller Murfreesboro in that it was once a town, but has recently been getting sprawl.

[LA_TN]

What a difference a day makes...

You all FAIL. You missed the 'walkable subdivision ordinance' thread and/or article.

City strolls with walkable subdivision ordinance

"City among suburban sprawl worst

During the past decade, numerous studies have listed Nashville as one of the worst examples of suburban sprawl.

A 2001 USA Today report actually listed Nashville as having the nation

[jice]

Definitely no on Clayton vs. Franklin. Clayton has a skyline and about 20 mid-rise buildings for starters. Most range 15-25 floors around 200-300 ft tall. If a high-rise is 300 ft, then Clayton has a few. The Plaza, completed a few years ago, is the tallest at 400 ft. This area is more like a smaller DT Nashville for comparasion. They have street-level retail, shops, restaurants, offices, etc. It's the new DT area of STL - very nice.

O'Fallon is not an accident, it is a result of the Air Force Base. But yes, I would liken that area to a smaller Murfreesboro in that it was once a town, but has recently been getting sprawl.

To be honest... i've never been in or anywhere near Clayton lol. So i'll take your word for it. I was mainly comparing it to Franklin though, in that its supposed to be a nice place to live... and not to mention, kindof the richer part of town?

Fairview Heights and the new Green Mount Rd area is really what I was calling O'Fallon too... just because I think that's how they are trying to promote it... all as one big area. I remember hearing commercials all the time (when I was still living in southern IL) for staying in O'Fallon, IL when you wanna visit STL. Those two areas combined have almost any chain restaurant and retail store you would want lol.

[Lexy]

What a difference a day makes...

You all FAIL. You missed the 'walkable subdivision ordinance' thread and/or article.

City strolls with walkable subdivision ordinance

"City among suburban sprawl worst

During the past decade, numerous studies have listed Nashville as one of the worst examples of suburban sprawl.

A 2001 USA Today report actually listed Nashville as having the nation

[linclink]

I'd say Clayton is more comparable to Fort Lauderdale. Though Ft. Laud is much bigger... and NOT a suburb.. but its own city, in a completely different county from Miami. I wonder though, if you spoke to people who live in Franklin and in Murfreesboro.. do they consider themselves the suburbs... or do they consider themselves a city (or town), with some suburbs WITHIN the city of Franklin, or within the city of Murfreesboro... I have a feeling they don't think of themselves as being a part of Nashville, or a suburb of Nashville at all. At least, I never thought of Fort Lauderdale being any more related to Miami, than to Nashville. I always felt like we were completely distinct and independent. I think the people in the surrounding counties of Middle Tennessee feel the same way. Again, I still believe that in time, Murfreesboro and Franklin could come to be like Clayton. I'm sure that some 20 years ago Clayton had no downtown... probably was just a suburb, and probably had some office parks.. but with time, business relocations, etc.. etc... it has become a city with a great Urban Downtown. These things take time... but I think that the richer a "suburb" gets, the more businesses that come to the area, etc.. the bigger the chance of it evolving into an actual City, with an actual Urban core. However, if it's growth is stifiled, if no businesses relocate there, etc... then it will always be a Suburb.

[rocket9561]

I think it's reasonable that Williamson and Rutherford counties don't always think of themselves as suburbs. Though they really wouldn't exist as they are without Nashville, they are somewhat self contained. A lot of people live in and work in Rutherford and Williamson counties. They also pull in commuters from Davidson, Wilson, Sumner, Robertson, etc. For this reason, the cities of these counties will have a more independent attitude. This is very different from the suburbs of Sumner and Wilson counties which depend on Nashville for just about everything.

[Skyscrapergeek]

I believe it will take a developer with balls to get out and take the lead. The bigger it will be, the more enticing to prospective tenants. There may be several months of high vacancy (personally I don't think it will happen with the relo pipeline), but it's inevitable that the space would fill up. There are already lots of firms in your DT looking for space.

I may be simple minded about this, but build it (office towers) and they will come.

I totally agree with you Brain. We need a few more visionaries in this town. When it comes to residential towers DT, where would we be without Tony.

[Lexy]

I think it's reasonable that Williamson and Rutherford counties don't always think of themselves as suburbs. Though they really wouldn't exist as they are without Nashville, they are somewhat self contained. A lot of people live in and work in Rutherford and Williamson counties. They also pull in commuters from Davidson, Wilson, Sumner, Robertson, etc. For this reason, the cities of these counties will have a more independent attitude. This is very different from the suburbs of Sumner and Wilson counties which depend on Nashville for just about everything.

Good point rocket. I believe it is that mentality, about Williamson and Rutherford counties, that has local leaders doing what they are doing now. Which amounts to seperating itself from Nashville. It is interesting about how the local leaders have forgotten where they came from and whobrought them to where they are now. Nashville. Best thing for local leaders to do is to work WITH Nashville, not against like they are trying to do.

[Relient J]

I have written news copy for a living, and it CAN be written without bias. Nuff said about that.

Also, if you think that the Tennessean isn't biased, then you do live too far out in the suburbs in a box secluded from reality. LOL!! The only REAL, unbiased news source for Urban Nashville is the City Paper.

Lexy, my apologies if I offended you by saying "I don't think there's a single journalist who is able to be completely unbiased..." Let me rephrase to say that I believe for many if not most journalists, avoiding bias is challenging. My main point in the comment was not to say that I believe The Tennesseean is unbiased (I wouldn't know as I rarely read it), but that it sounded as if you were advocating that it should be biased toward a new urbanist-style, pro-centralization Nashville. Again, I apologize if I have mischaracterized your feelings on the matter.

Good point rocket. I believe it is that mentality, about Williamson and Rutherford counties, that has local leaders doing what they are doing now. Which amounts to seperating itself from Nashville. It is interesting about how the local leaders have forgotten where they came from and whobrought them to where they are now. Nashville. Best thing for local leaders to do is to work WITH Nashville, not against like they are trying to do.

I guess (and this will be my answer to linclink's question as well) that I feel somewhat split on the notion of Murfreesboro as a suburb. I don't believe that's the way the city originally developed (as someone else noted Murfreesboro was formerly the state capital). Obviously it has benefitted tremendously by its relatively close proximity to Nashville, so in that sense there are definite suburban aspects to the city. That's undeniable. Yet Murfreesboro is in many ways, and I believe will continue to be, largely independent of Nashville from the standpoint of many average citizens. Were my job not in Nashville I would have little reason for travelling there. I have only rarely ventured into the big city outside of going to work in my admittedly short time as a Tennessean.

However, I don't believe this independence is in any way a bad thing. Murfreesboro is not subservient to Nashville, and should never be. While both cities should work together where its mutually beneficial to both, Murfreesboro would be derelict in its duty to its citizens if it were putting Nashville's interests above its own.

[Lexy]

However, I don't believe this independence is in any way a bad thing. Murfreesboro is not subservient to Nashville, and should never be. While both cities should work together where its mutually beneficial to both, Murfreesboro would be derelict in its duty to its citizens if it were putting Nashville's interests above its own.

No big deal man.

I agree with the quoted statement above for what it's worth. I believe there IS a happy medium that can be acheived here.

[Relient J]

I like common ground.

[LA_TN]

Were my job not in Nashville I would have little reason for travelling there.

...

Murfreesboro is not subservient to Nashville, and should never be. While both cities should work together where its mutually beneficial to both, Murfreesboro would be derelict in its duty to its citizens if it were putting Nashville's interests above its own.

Sounds like it would be in the best interest of Murfreesboro to help Nashville land jobs???

Where's Kheldane...

[LA_TN]

I'd say Clayton is more comparable to Fort Lauderdale. Though Ft. Laud is much bigger... and NOT a suburb.. but its own city, in a completely different county from Miami. I wonder though, if you spoke to people who live in Franklin and in Murfreesboro.. do they consider themselves the suburbs... or do they consider themselves a city (or town), with some suburbs WITHIN the city of Franklin, or within the city of Murfreesboro... I have a feeling they don't think of themselves as being a part of Nashville, or a suburb of Nashville at all. At least, I never thought of Fort Lauderdale being any more related to Miami, than to Nashville. I always felt like we were completely distinct and independent. I think the people in the surrounding counties of Middle Tennessee feel the same way. Again, I still believe that in time, Murfreesboro and Franklin could come to be like Clayton. I'm sure that some 20 years ago Clayton had no downtown... probably was just a suburb, and probably had some office parks.. but with time, business relocations, etc.. etc... it has become a city with a great Urban Downtown. These things take time... but I think that the richer a "suburb" gets, the more businesses that come to the area, etc.. the bigger the chance of it evolving into an actual City, with an actual Urban core. However, if it's growth is stifiled, if no businesses relocate there, etc... then it will always be a Suburb.

Like I stated earlier, each place is unique. That being said, Clayton is <10 miles from DT STL and is the St. Louis County government center (courts, jail, county commisioner, etc.) so it was always a 'city' with a DT area and never really a rural community like Franklin. Lexy's pics are always great - it clearly illustrates that it is truely a small city w/ towers. Heck, Clayton is probably bigger than several cities; like Raleigh, Montgomery, Lexington. I can assure you it was never a suburb and there were never any office parks here!! Clayton started as a DT and grew up. It probably compares more to Mid-town/West End area here.

People around Murfreesboro do mostly consider themselves a suburb of Murfreesboro, yet most of them drive to Nashville for work. I always ask them where they say they are from if the travel to, say, Chicago or NYC???