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Berry Farms Development, the Cool Springs of South Williamson County


Boisefan

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Hey BnaBeaker,

I agree with you on the subdivision thing. I HATE HATE HATE subdivisions. But I don't think Franklin will always be subdivisions. I really do believe that in a few years you will start to see more neighborhoods in Franklin. One area where that neihborhood growth will probably happen sooner rather than later, is around historic Franklin. The neighborhood around the historic downtown is already very nice, and with those new townhomes there... I have a feeling pretty soon there will be lots of new homes in that neighborhood. Areas around there where there are now, not so nice homes, will be redeveloped, adn newer, nicer homes, will come up... It WILL grow... and it will be neighborhoods, NOT subdivisions only. The fact is that Williamson and Rutherford are fairly new areas... they will go through growing pains... and they WILL morph and transform. They will not always be what they are today. And a few years down the road, they will start to adopt alot of the new urbanism ordinances that Nashville and other cities around the country are adopting. Just give them time.. AND the chance to grow.

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I don't think the growth of the surrounding counties of Davidson are the problem that LA_TN was getting at... the problem is the companies that are already based in Davidson county, and are attracted to surrounding counties, for whatever reason, but still rely on a lot of the things Davidson provides.

I don't think there's anybody on this forum who would be against the growth of metro Nashville as a whole... all 13 counties. If Williamson and Rutherford want to grow and expand... by all means, do so. It can only benefit the entire area as a whole. But do NOT do so by taking businesses away from Davidson, and expect to still have use of all that Davidson county has to offer.

As for the 13 county thing... I may be wrong on this... but I think the counties here in TN are small compared to most states. So maybe having 13 counties in a metro sounds bigger than it really is.

The main problem we are seeing, I think, is sprawl. Which by definition is unplanned growth of an area. The unplanned part being the problem.

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Hey BnaBeaker,

I agree with you on the subdivision thing. I HATE HATE HATE subdivisions. But I don't think Franklin will always be subdivisions. I really do believe that in a few years you will start to see more neighborhoods in Franklin. One area where that neihborhood growth will probably happen sooner rather than later, is around historic Franklin. The neighborhood around the historic downtown is already very nice, and with those new townhomes there... I have a feeling pretty soon there will be lots of new homes in that neighborhood. Areas around there where there are now, not so nice homes, will be redeveloped, adn newer, nicer homes, will come up... It WILL grow... and it will be neighborhoods, NOT subdivisions only. The fact is that Williamson and Rutherford are fairly new areas... they will go through growing pains... and they WILL morph and transform. They will not always be what they are today. And a few years down the road, they will start to adopt alot of the new urbanism ordinances that Nashville and other cities around the country are adopting. Just give them time.. AND the chance to grow.

Hey, I agree with you completely. Like I said, i'm not anti-suburb, i'm anti-sprawlburb lol. "Suburb" is just a name afterall, and there are many beautiful well planned suburbs in this country. In my opinion a development doesn't have to be filled with 800 unit apartment complexes and no yards for it to be considered urban. Being urban has to do with responsible neighborhood design first and foremost, with other elements sprinkled in of course. One can live in a great home with a yard and at the same time live in a well-built environment that is technically urban. Old Franklin is a great example of that. The surrounding old home neighborhoods are gorgeous, and I love their little downtown. Sure those places are expensive now, but that is only because they are in such short supply! It just irrates me that they don't invest more into it! it's like they don't know what they have! They spend so much money on bulldozing farms to build 8 lane highways lined with Wal-marts, and so little money on building up their beautiful central part of town. Obviously Franklin is only one of hundreds of examples across the country. I just think it is ridiculous and embarrassing as an American that Franklin is about the same size (area wise) as Brussels, Belgium...population 1.9 million and the capital of the European Union. I'm not at all saying that Franklin needs to be that compact...but the space they've waisted is just disgusting to me. On the upside, I have seen the Plan of Franklin online and I am very encouraged. It's just a matter of getting the town council to agree!

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On the upside, I have seen the Plan of Franklin online and I am very encouraged. It's just a matter of getting the town council to agree!

Hey BnaBreaker!!!

Great to find out we agree!! I really hope they will build more homes surrounding the old downtown... I for one, would love to live there.. And I am so psyched to learn that theres a Plan of Franklin online!!! I'll try to find it... but just in case, can you post it?? Thanks!!!

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But do NOT do so by taking businesses away from Davidson, and expect to still have use of all that Davidson county has to offer.

Why not? Would Nashville deny people the right to use the airport for example? I hardly think so. But at any rate, I don't think that many companies in Nashville have left the city for other Middle Tennessee counties. Or are you refering to deals such as the Nissan relocation?

BnaBreaker, I respect your opinion but I personally have no problem with people living in a large house 40 miles from Nasvhille. If that's the way they want to do it, I see no problem with it. I live in Murfreesboro and commute to work in Nashville. That's my choice and it works out fine for me. I don't consider it irresponsible at all.

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Lexy, I have no intention to call you or anyone else here derogative names. I respect your opinion, and I'm glad you're here. I too hope that every city within Nashville's MSA sees growth and prosperity. At the same time though, I'm pro Murfreesboro and Rutherford county above those other areas. The metro, after all, is just a statistic. We're just talking about commuter patterns.

Lexy, in what ways are the suburbs "taking away"? What are they taking away from?

Quality of life, Business, tax dollars, etc. The list goes on and on. The suburbs are a horrible thing that many people see no problem with. It is rather hard to describe on some forum on the internet. Come to the March meeting and I would be delighted to tell you in person.

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Hey Rocky Top Buzz,

Couldn't have said it better myself!! These cities are their own entity...and they will become even moreso as time goes by... and that really is good!!

And that is where the problem lies. Look at Atlanta for refernce. A thousand seperate cities doing their "own thing" is a bad thing for a metro. There has got to be a seam of unity within the MSA. Uniformity that brings certain services, and styles together to create a better metro. Not a bunch of rouge, smaller communities that are fighting the power of the big city. No offense Link of course. It's kinda like having three or four kids and going to the store with them running around doing their own thing, causing trouble wherever they can.

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Hey Lexy!!

No offense taken. I'm just not sure I understand your line of reasoning. Where I live, its not one huge sprawl (ala Atlanta). There are 3 distinct cities, all within 30 or so miles of eachother. If you want to go to miami, you take I-95... drive some 30 minutes South, and your in a COMPLETELY different place. The feel is different, the look is different, the businesses are different... Fort Lauderdale is not a glorified extension of Miami. Its a completely different city. If your in Ft. Laud, and you want to go to downtown West Palm Beach, drive another 40 minutes North and there you are... again, completely different vibe.. totally different city. You mentioned Canada, and I am not very familiar with it. But I do know that in Europe, you can drive 30 minutes and be in a completely different country. You can have 2 or 3 big or medium cities with central cores downtown all within a 30 to 45 minute drive of eachother. Would you call that sprawl? No. Why? Because they are distinct and seperate. THAT is what we have here in South Florida (heck.. you need a passport to go to Miami, technically a different country down there.. hahahahahaha). And its the same thing you can have in Middle Tennessee... actually the same thing you will probably have in 10 to 20 years. Fort Lauderdale is 35 minutes from Miami International airport. But we also have our own international airport. With flights to Europe, Canada and South America. Again... we are COMPLETELY independent. We're not draining Miami. We are adding to the South Florida region. The last time I was in Miami was probably about 5 years ago. We have everything we need here.. world class Museums, concert halls, beaches, etc... etc... I'm not a big sports fan, so I really have no reason to go down South.

As for the kids thing... I have 3 kids. To me saying that 3 cities together can't be good is like saying that I can't allow all 3 of my kids to be succesfull because the competition won't be good. All 3 can be equally successful. And it will be good for each of them, and for us as parents. Nashville can take the heat from having succesful cities to the south. It just needs to work on being sucessful. Miami certainly wasn't hurt by our growth.

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Lexy, I think we have a fundamental difference in the way we view this whole big complex topic. :) An MSA is a census statistic. I realize that its somewhat more complicated than that, but there is no overarching political structure linking all of these communities, nor should there be. I work in Nashville, but were it not for that I would rarely have any need at all to drive into the big city. That's not to say that Murfreesboro as an entity has no use for Nashville. I'm all for growth that benefits Nashville and Murfreesboro, but Murfreesboro is under absolutely no obligation to help Nashville grow.

Nashville's tax revenue is not Murfreesboro's concern, nor whould it be! Also, how does Murfreesboro detract from Nashville's quality of life? Would you like Nashville to in some way take away Murfreesboro's tax revenue or quality of life? We often use the term "Nashville's MSA", which makes Nashville sound in some way possessive of these other regions when in fact it is not.

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Lexy, I think we have a fundamental difference in the way we view this whole big complex topic. :) An MSA is a census statistic. I realize that its somewhat more complicated than that, but there is no overarching political structure linking all of these communities, nor should there be. I work in Nashville, but were it not for that I would rarely have any need at all to drive into the big city. That's not to say that Murfreesboro as an entity has no use for Nashville. I'm all for growth that benefits Nashville and Murfreesboro, but Murfreesboro is under absolutely no obligation to help Nashville grow.

Nashville's tax revenue is not Murfreesboro's concern, nor whould it be! Also, how does Murfreesboro detract from Nashville's quality of life? Would you like Nashville to in some way take away Murfreesboro's tax revenue or quality of life? We often use the term "Nashville's MSA", which makes Nashville sound in some way possessive of these other regions when in fact it is not.

Again, if you want to know why I feel the way I do. Come to the meeting. I would be happy to explain in FULl detail. Otherwise, my thoughts are very hard to put on here the way I would like for them to be said. LOL!!

I will say this. Go online and research the negative effects of suburbia on American cities and you will see a lot of interesting things. A bunch of stuff that I agree with.

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But again Lexy... is it suburbia you disagree with... or just the idea of having another medium sized city in such close proximity to Nashville? If, in 20 years, murfreesboro or Franklin have a great urban core, with great neighborhoods (without sprawl) and becomes self sufficient, and is IN NO WAY Suburbia, nor Sprawl... would you still hate it? Because if so, than that means your problem isn't really with Suburbia or Sprawl. Its that you feel Nashville doesn't have what it takes to grow along side another city. It means you fear that people will pick Murfreesboro or Franklin over Nashville. And since you like Nashville better, than its a no no... Thats more of an emotional reason than it is a logical one. I'm not attacking you, nor do I want to offend you... but I'm trying to understand where it is you are coming from... and thats the impression I get... that this is a reaction to the fact that some companies seem to like Franklin and Murfreesboro better than Nashville. It seems like you feel that these areas are stealing Nashvilles thunder. If thats the case, then it makes Nashville look weak and incapable of making it in a competitive landscape. Other cities have had to grow along side succesfull counties, and have made it. In my opinion, if Nashville cannot, it will be a reflection on Nashville, and not on the surrounding counties. Again, maybe I'm reading you wrong (after all misunderstandings are quite common on forums, since its harder to express oneself typing), but thats the impression I get. Is it right? Is it wrong? Let me know!

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I am not against the idea of a medium sized city next to Nashville at all (if developed properly, of course that appears to NOT be the case here). It is the suburbia that it creates that I hate with a deep passion. Look at the developments in Charlotte and the Triad over there for a good example of that. To me, Franklin and Murfreesboro are bedroom communities to Nashville. When someone in an office in Los Angeles thinks about a confrence in the south, they think of (hypothetically) Nashville, not a conference center in Murfreesboro, TN. That is where I think Murfreesboro is a bit off base IMO. They will never REALLY be able to compete with the reputation, power, money, and prestigue that Nashville has on a regional and national scale. That doesn't mean they should just throw their hands up and give up. But don't try to play in the big leagues if you are still a minor leaguer in most of Americas eyes. And yes, Murfreesboro used the argument of "competing" with Nashville when talking about its conference center at council meetings. A great example that counters my points are the Twin Cities in Minnesota. A great couple of cities that co-exsist, but that will never happen here due to the mentality of having a 10,000 sq foot house on 50 acres in the middle of the city attitude that people here have. The recent developments in Nashville's core are a DIRECT result of suburbia becoming bad ideas for many people in the metro that moved to the 'burbs. I hope it continues. A strong core city is THE KEY to a healthy metro, look at Detroit as an example of a core city that has gone terribly off track and then look at how pathetic their metro is. Look at Houston and its metro as being a healthy core city with a vibrant, and increasingly URBAN suburbia. Dallas is the same.

The Nashville suburbs just have this mentality that they don't need Nashville when in reality, if it were not for Nashville...they wouldn't even be a blip on the Rand McNally atlas. I hate that mentality and the development that results from it like Berry Farms and Providence Town Center in Mt. Juliet or the "Gateway" (to what?) that is happening in Murfreesboro. Since when has Murfreesboro become a Gateway?? Sorry, I had to get that in guys and gals.

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If Murf & Franklin want to grow on their own... then we have no problem. But like Lexy said... where would they be without Nashville? The problem is simply the suburban sprawl that results when developers target areas like Brentwood (Maryland Farms), instead of downtown Nashville. This steals away the businesses and tax dollars from Davidson county that promote its growth... yet the suburbs rely on Nashville for the big city amenities it provides.

The whole point of this forum (to my knowledge) is to promote urban development... but developments such as Berry Farms & Maryland Farms & Cool Springs... are the opposite of urban development, in my opinion.

I, for one, just don't want to see Nashville end up like cities such as St. Louis... I know LA_TN could provide you with plenty of details on that, based on his other posts. But STL has everyone moved out to the suburbs in a huge sprawling mess... and leaving DT pretty much deserted (in a sense). They are doing some to fix the problem in recent years... but there is a long way to go still.

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I think Nashville is past the moving everyone out into the suburbs phase. Now, we are moving people back into the city,

Now I've been gone for a day (I know it doesn't sound long, but look how many posts are labeled today and yesterday), so bear with me as I bring up old topics.

About Cool Springs, I don't see how it will ever have a downtown, unless we pull a Hendersonville and build one right there among the office parks. CS just isn't set up that way. We might get a 50 story tower, but there won't be a true downtown. And about Franklin's neighborhoods, it already has some great neighborhoods extending down Lewisburg Pike and West Main and Fair Street, and there is a kind of neighborhood up Franklin Rd. near the factory. That area of Franklin is the most urban area you'll see in this town. However, that was built 100 years ago. They don't build like that anymore, so I'm not sure we'll see more neighborhoods in Franklin. We'll have to see where the area surrounding Berry Farms goes.

And about the relationship between suburbs and Nashville, I think the suburbs will always be an underdog, but will always be taking some business away from the city. That's just the way it works. Suburbs will not die off. It just won't happen.

I doubt any suburb, including Murfreesboro, will ever become a major city like Ft. Lauderdale. Ft. Lauderdale is an exception, mostly the fact that it has an ocean and that it is a desirable place to live. Murfreesboro really isn't like that. It won't become a very urban city, at least I don't think it will. I could be proven wrong.

And one last thing, Lexy, I think that Gateway means the Gateway to Murfreesboro, not Nashville.

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And one last thing, Lexy, I think that Gateway means the Gateway to Murfreesboro, not Nashville.

LOL!! How nice.

I figured that was what it meant, I just didn't see the point in it.

Funny thing. It was referred in the papers to by Murfreesboro city leaders as being like a development in my old town of Lexington, KY called Hamburg Pavillion. Hamburg is the biggest sprawl momma in Central Kentucky. That is not the example I would be looking toward if I were Murfreesboro.

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Lexy, Cheerio and Jice,

Just wanted to say I agree that office parks are not cool. And they do promote sprawl. But again, I think they probably could get a downtown going (preferably along the historic downtown, but I've heard that cool springs was built precisely so historic franklin could stay as is... is that true?). Same goes for Murfreesboro (which already has a couple of towers, true?) Anyways, with sustained growth, they would probably become their own city. Not a suburb, but a city. I think that would really be a win win for the region. Miami's explosion in the past 10 years or so has been happening along side Ft. Laud's and West Palms growth... they have fed off of eachother, and in the end, the growth in the smaller counties/cities, has been a huge benefit for everyone concerned. I think that with all the money that is in Williamson County, and with the ground work that has already been done in Rutherford/Murfreesboro... a similiar arrangement may be possible in Middle Tennessee.

But I agree 100% that office parks and subdivisions is NOT desirable. But I still hold out hope that Franklin and Murfreesboro will soon break away from this form of city plan in favor of a more urban, contained one.

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The problem I have with Williamson and Rutherford is the sprawl. Berry Farms is closer to itself. McKay's Mill is closer to its own Publix. A new Publix has just opened at the corner of Nolensville and Concord road. Yeah for the good people of Governor's Club! A single tear falls down my cheek for every acre of farmland that is bulldozed for more low density, gated, ungated, exclusive, medium income, temporarily isolated development in these counties. That is what gets me boys and girls, and I would suspect that it's Lexy's beef, too. I'm not against the prosperity of Franklin, I think it's a cool town with a lot to offer. But it's unrestrained growth is disgusting. It's a land use mentality whose time has come. This site is here to promote urbanity, the growth of cities. I would like to see Franklin and Murfreesboro become nice cities. Contained cities. Nashville, too.

I also think it's difficult to compare the growth patterns of Florida with Tennessee. Florida's population is what, four, five times that of Tennessee?

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A single tear falls down my cheek for every acre of farmland that is bulldozed for more low density, gated, ungated, exclusive, medium income, temporarily isolated development in these counties. That is what gets me boys and girls, and I would suspect that it's Lexy's beef, too. I'm not against the prosperity of Franklin, I think it's a cool town with a lot to offer. But it's unrestrained growth is disgusting. It's a land use mentality whose time has come. This site is here to promote urbanity, the growth of cities. I would like to see Franklin and Murfreesboro become nice cities. Contained cities. Nashville, too.

I agree with that statement 100%. And thats the point. I believe Franklin and Murfreesboro can in fact become cities... and not just sprawl. But for that, they do need companies to come to town. And yes, South Florida has like a gazilion people... but I have a feeling that there will be quite a bit of population growth in middle tennessee over the next decade. The more the area grows.. the more business it attracts... the more people will come. The climate is temperate, the geography is beautifull, the people are great, the food is really great (with the exception of the chinese food... so sorry but its not that good in nashville... why is that??!?!?!).... I have a feeling there will be enough growth to go around for everyone (though perhaps on a smaller scale).

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cheeriokid, I find Murfreesboro to be a desirable place to live, but that goes to show that beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Lexy, I'm pretty sure cheeriokid is right. The Gateway Overlay District represents the new gateway to Murfreesboro. The plans have changed somewhat but its supposed to be mixed use with retail, office buildings, a new hospital, and residences. It's also going to be beautifully landscaped with gorgeous stone signs (or gates I suppose) with the name Murfreesboro across them. There were renderings in the Tennesseean several months ago. I have a lot of hope for the gateway, and I definitely think the city planners see it as more than just an office park.

Also, the conference center (which I voted against) was sold as a way to draw business to Murfreesboro, and provide a place to meet for MTSU and Nissan. One of the big things they brought up was that Tractor Supply Co. picked Williamson County over Rutherford because Rutherford doesn't have a conference center. It's not reasonable to expect Nissan and MTSU to have to drive up to Nashville to hold a conference. It makes good sense to build a conference center in Murfreesboro.

Murfreesboro is also looking at implementing city-wide design guidelines, and has a plan in place for revitalizing the historic neighborhoods near the city's core. They refer to the latter project as the Maney Ave. Overlay District.

I do want a strong Nashville, but even more I want a strong Murfreesboro. I don't think these two things have to be mutually exclusive at all. However, Murfreesboro should feel no shame in exerting itself, and shouldn't feel like it has to stay a "second tier" city forever. Just because every American doesn't know where Murfreesboro is, is no reason to stop growing.

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I WAS talking specifically to you... but everywhere else I was referring to the general forumers who are opposed to the growth in Williamson... I don't want you to take it personally. And I hope there are no hard feelings.

linclink, I'm going to hunt you down and stay w/ you while on vactaion!!! Just kidding, no feelings hurt. I'm the type that can agrue a point w/ anyone while having a beer!! I respect anyone's opinion as long as they have valid reasons...

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The climate is temperate, the geography is beautifull, the people are great, the food is really great (with the exception of the chinese food... so sorry but its not that good in nashville... why is that??!?!?!)

linclink - We have a small Chinese population here, that's why. There are only a handful of restaurants that one can order authentic Chinese dishes. And sometimes, you have to ask. Ironically, we have great offerings of authentic Vietnamese, Korean, and Japanese food with some Thai. We have a zillion habachi grills (hold the 'seasonings') and many places offering sushi; but for sushi there are only handful of truely good authentic ones. With the exception of some Vietnamese places in Murfreesboro, all are in Davidson Co. There are no authentic places to eat in Cool springs, sorry. Mexican, well there's two on every corner. Most are Tex-mex, but some are more traditional. If the menu is in Spanish, you've found the right place! Greek/Mediterranean is limited (one is in CS).

Ummm, none of these are in office parks. Sprawl burbs only wants McDonald's and TGI Fridays.

Sorry for the tangent, but I love food...

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Wow, multiple DT areas. Just for jice, STL has two DT areas, the second one is Clayton. Offices, condos, restaurants, street-life, Check it out...

http://www.ci.clayton.mo.us/

East STL says they have a DT too. Note: no picture attached, none needed (trust me).

Every city is unique. Twin Cities (St. Paul/Minneapolis). Look at Chicago, is Naperville a DT area; no, but Cool Springs could eventually resemble this. Sorry, no 50 story bldgs for Franklin, that would defeat the purpose.

But when comparing CS/Franklin/Brentwood to Naperville, there is one CLEAR distinction - planning. Naperville was once a small rural town with LOTS of farmland. Then Chicago sprawled. Naperville is home to countless large corporations/companies with a large population as well. But once off the Expressway, you enter a fabric of streets that promotes neighborhoods. They developed a plan when sprawl was emminent and followed it. Locations close to Expressway have offices. Streets were PLANNED and laid out to grid. Major thoughfares have bus service, retail, and no schools. Minor arteries contain schools, street residential, and subdivisions. Development is contiguous (no undeveloped spaces). Does CS have any of these?

I would give Murf. a shot for a DT area. Believe it or not, I think there is a remote chance that Elm Hill/Donnelson could achieve this. West End/Mid-town will happen. But not Brentwood/CS/Franklin because the mentality is just not there.

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BnaBreaker, I respect your opinion but I personally have no problem with people living in a large house 40 miles from Nasvhille. If that's the way they want to do it, I see no problem with it. I live in Murfreesboro and commute to work in Nashville. That's my choice and it works out fine for me. I don't consider it irresponsible at all.

Please understand that I am not trying to demonize or lay the blame on you or people like you. I suppose the blame for unplanned sprawl can be placed souly on the shoulders of developers and the local governments. It's not even so much about the location SO much with me (although it matters) as it is the style of the development. I'm sorry, but unplanned sprawl IS NOT okay. I'm not saying the people that live in it are bad people, or even prefer cul-de-sac sprawl....but it isn't okay. It is killing our environment faster than just about anything else these days. It isn't legal to dump toxic waste in a beautiful little creek, or start a forest fire, so why should it be legal to mow down thousands of acres of beautiful wilderness to put up a sparsely populated tree-less cloned house subdivision? I understand that most people want to live in homes, and that will take some open space. That's FINE and NECESSARY like I said, but neighborhoods full of single family homes can be built withOUT taking up a thousand acres to put up 200 homes and WITH pedestrian and bicycle friendly streets that connect well to the rest of the city grid, that have at least SOME access to mass transit, that are well connected with city infrastructure, that have sidewalks and nearby parks and trails within walking distance etc. etc...completely unchecked sprawl (not the people, but the sprawl itself) is just about as terrible a thing as we can do to the earth. That is a fact. And just because people are used to it doesn't mean it shouldn't be put into check.

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