New Yorkers Are Also Fleeing To...

[PghUSA]

To answer your question Mj, I think the conservatives have some points on the marriage thing (benefits I am no so sure of), if you do a reverse engineering of marriage it has existed for thousands of years not neccessarily for the man or woman but for the children. It has often been said that the #1 thing kids need growing up is stability, thus the societal preeminence on marriage. This might seem like a churchmeeting response but if you realize how vast an impact on humanity one has when they have a child, how really the whole future will change with that generation and what we as adults do to nuture and educate them. Even in traditional marriage this has become more and more warped in the last 50 years, so in no way does traditional answer all these questions but much like democracy, it isn't the perfect answer it is just the best one man has come up with so far.

As far as the "Alabama in the middle" (Alabama is a nice place by the way ) Allegheny and Fayette (the most Alabama of our metroplex IMHO) were the only two Dem counties in 2004, and really not my much at all. The vast majority of "Pittsburgh" from Fallingwater to Steelers camp to Sony's "Pittsburgh" complex, either were a 50/50 split or within 5 pts of Bush or Kerry.

I have no doubts that the city core is highly democratic but to my knowledge it is a different animal then you find on the coasts, although they are very open minded most Pgh Dems especially ones over 30 tend to be "union Democrats" the kind that would clamour to vote for pro-life, highly religious Bob Casey Sr. by the largest landslides in national governor races at the time. To say that the GOP is only strong in the center "corn belt" of the state is to ignore that Santorum and Spector gaining their groundswells in the cities, the Harts, Murphys, etc. do indicate that there is some diversity of opinion in the metroplex.

[balistpgh]

As usual in politics, both sides can debate til they are blue in the face. I thought this was a forum about economic development and not about the merits of marriage or how heavy democractic or republican certain sections of the state voted in 2004. Those issues have been ripping us apart as a country for the past five years and I find it disheartening that it is coming up in this forum.

[PghUSA]

Balist I can empathize with you however as long as posters are respectful and focus on the ideas any city orientied issue is pretty much fair game here. I agree that to talk of this issue you can't talk long without coming around to national politics but to discuss it in the lense of Hart, Murphy and what other cities like Pittsburgh have done or not done seems necessary to understand which path might be best for this city--and what we can all do to get there.

Only way we let it tear us apart is if we forget our civility. Oh, best way to get us back onto an economic Pittsburgh bent is to start 'er up as long as it ties into Pittsburgh anyone can post any (respectful) subject matter here.

[mjcatl2]

To answer your question Mj, I think the conservatives have some points on the marriage thing (benefits I am no so sure of), if you do a reverse engineering of marriage it has existed for thousands of years not neccessarily for the man or woman but for the children. It has often been said that the #1 thing kids need growing up is stability, thus the societal preeminence on marriage. This might seem like a churchmeeting response but if you realize how vast an impact on humanity one has when they have a child, how really the whole future will change with that generation and what we as adults do to nuture and educate them. Even in traditional marriage this has become more and more warped in the last 50 years, so in no way does traditional answer all these questions but much like democracy, it isn't the perfect answer it is just the best one man has come up with so far.

If we are concerned about children, then most us straight folks would grasp what it means to get married and what it means to be a responsiblie parent, but we don't grasp it and we don't know what it means. Gays have nothing to with this issue and if they want to be together, it's not for me to say no.

As far as the "Alabama in the middle" (Alabama is a nice place by the way ) Allegheny and Fayette (the most Alabama of our metroplex IMHO) were the only two Dem counties in 2004, and really not my much at all. The vast majority of "Pittsburgh" from Fallingwater to Steelers camp to Sony's "Pittsburgh" complex, either were a 50/50 split or within 5 pts of Bush or Kerry.

I simply mentioned that I was talking about Pittsburgh and not Altoona and Wilkes Barre and then noted that Pittsburgh and Philly are not the same as the area in between - this isn't news to you I hope. Even Pittsburgh and Philly Republicans are not the same. Yeah some are, but in general (and I follow this kind of thing) the two PA cities and Northestern city (by city I mean metro areas) republicans are largely socially moderate, they are old school fiscal conservatives and more intune with liberterians than the Pat Robertson's who control the GOP now.

And you'll see how this plays out this fall with Santorum. If people knew what they were getting with him in the 90s, I think that you would have seen different results. Specter is office because the Bucks county moderate Republicans let him be in office. You'll notice that his right wing primary opponent didn't win.

Harts, Murphys, etc. do indicate that there is some diversity of opinion in the metroplex.

and look how they care of the greater interest of PA, by supporting Western PA's economic center...

because of course the North Hills burbs would have existed today all by themselves.....

[PghUSA]

Never said traditional had a monopoly on perfect marriage, nor do I think the govt. has any business telling us who we should be with--different then "marriage". The point in my mind is what is necessary for society when one carries or fathers a child then raises it, historically this is where marriage was invented.

As far as the local congressional representation, I'd be the first to agree with you they're tied too closely to the fiefdoms of suburbia then helping out the city, I think they would readily admit that as well. I view it more as an institutional deficit of Hburg and it's lack of 21st (or even 20th) century approach to regional goverance. Though they have slices of urbanity in their congressional districts, Hart and Murphy are forced to placate the suburbanites (20 "mayors" standing behind you at the podium) vs. the city. If Hburg allowed for consolidation or easy annexation this neighborhood war would not exist--or if it did could be easily tamed by a metro council and metro mayor dealing with our reps in DC for all the suburbans and urbans alike.

I never meant to rubberstamp Hart's and Murphy's platforms, merely to point out that "Pittsburgh" is not as one party as some make it out to be. You are correct though there is a big wing of moderate Republicans, just as there are many moderate Dems (Casey Sr. boosters etc.) that have deep traditions in this region.

[TheGerbil]

Richard Florida left CMU over a year ago.

That's part of the reason why I personally don't like him. He always claimed to like Pittsburgh, yet he put it down, and he wound up leaving. If he really wanted to help this city then he should have stuck around. Also, I don't think he ever made the connection between people around here supposedly not listening to him, and the way he insulted the city in one of his books.

[mjcatl2]

That's part of the reason why I personally don't like him. He always claimed to like Pittsburgh, yet he put it down, and he wound up leaving. If he really wanted to help this city then he should have stuck around. Also, I don't think he ever made the connection between people around here supposedly not listening to him, and the way he insulted the city in one of his books.

His research wasn't about Pittsburgh and his work took him elsewhere. This wasn't or isn't a personal thing.

[UrbaniDesDev]

He is a great guy and I loved his excitment about Pittsburgh and places like it. Business is business and it takes you where you must go. You do what you must for your career sometimes.

[Kasper]

I can only see good things about trying to foster a bigger and more accepted gay community in Pittsburgh. Despite whether or not you believe it gays generally do have more disposable income (that's why vacation packages, cruises etc cater to them so aggressively). Plus they are usually interested in and involved in the arts, traveling and culture bringing many of those things back to their home city. I bought my house in the East End from a gay couple and they remodeled the place beautifully, I can't thank those guys enough!

As far as the gay marriage issue is concerned, I can't make myself care too much because I'm not gay. I am a lawyer however, and I can tell you that as long as marriage in our society is a legally recognized institution (not just religious) that provides additional rights and protections to married people, those rights and protections must also be afforded to gay couples, otherwise it is unconstitutional. Whether we accomplish this through marriage, civil unions or basic contracting principles is an argument for another day. Personally though, I think divorce, alcoholism and child abuse (I have 3 girlfriends who were molested by their fathers growing up) is much much much more damaging to the family unit and stability for children then gay relationships. I would rather be raised by two well adjusted, loving, successful men than by a mom/dad who are unemployed, abusive drunks and I would think most people would feel the same way - but maybe I'm wrong.

Plus Pgh has an image problem. We are seen as blue color and old school. Having a large gay community would do alot to make Pittsburgh appear progessive in the national conscienceness.

[TheGerbil]

His research wasn't about Pittsburgh and his work took him elsewhere. This wasn't or isn't a personal thing.

That isn't the impression I got from what he said. I recall him saying something like "Pittsburgh isn't letting me be myself." Not to mention he often complained that people here don't listen to his ideas.

Well yeah buddy, you kind of insulted us in your book. What did you think we would do, hug you?

[balistpgh]

That isn't the impression I got from what he said. I recall him saying something like "Pittsburgh isn't letting me be myself." Not to mention he often complained that people here don't listen to his ideas.

Well yeah buddy, you kind of insulted us in your book. What did you think we would do, hug you?

I am very interested in what he said. Do you have the specific quote?

[TheGerbil]

I am very interested in what he said. Do you have the specific quote?

It was a while ago. I can't seem to find the quote now. But I think my paraphrase is pretty close to what he said. It made me very angry and probably burned itself in my brain

[UrbaniDesDev]

Heres a mention of the New york article in the Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06060/662587.stm

[PghUSA]

Nice link Urbani, please remember though that you must add personal commentary when including any link. Please read the Article posting policies thread if you have questions.

[UrbaniDesDev]

The gay community might not be NY or Sf, of course, but I think we are on par with places like Columbus. Long known for its strong gay community. Too bad the gay clubs suck here. Hopefully not for long