Greensboro Coliseum Complex thread

[d_Random]

I'm having a hard time visualizing the location and final design from this picture alone. Hopefully the N&R will have a follow up article with design pics, etc. But it certainly is an interesting addition to the coliseum complex.

BTW, today is the Coliseum's 50th anniversary.

IMHO the Coliseum is a money pit. It's never going to be able to compete with larger coliseums in N.C. no matter how much money we pour into it.

[beyonce245]

IMHO the Coliseum is a money pit. It's never going to be able to compete with larger coliseums in N.C. no matter how much money we pour into it.

I know you said in your own opinion, but at least be informed. The Greensboro Coliseum IS the largest indoor arena in NC. But beyond sheer size, the complex offers several facilities in one location which enables it to host events like the ACC Tournament and Figure Skating Championship so well. It hosts on average, about 850 events annually, and generates about $100 million in economic impact annually. And that impact is bound to only grow larger when other facilities like the Swim Center open. So while city taxpayers contribute $800,000 to it's annual operation budget, the impact to small businesses, hotels, and restaurants all across the region justifies the expense. IMHO

[Beany]

^^ agreed.

[d_Random]

I know you said in your own opinion, but at least be informed. The Greensboro Coliseum IS the largest indoor arena in NC. But beyond sheer size, the complex offers several facilities in one location which enables it to host events like the ACC Tournament and Figure Skating Championship so well. It hosts on average, about 850 events annually, and generates about $100 million in economic impact annually. And that impact is bound to only grow larger when other facilities like the Swim Center open. So while city taxpayers contribute $800,000 to it's annual operation budget, the impact to small businesses, hotels, and restaurants all across the region justifies the expense. IMHO

Bottomline: It loses money! Its cumulative operating losses since the early nineties approach $30 million dollars.

[beyonce245]

Bottomline: It loses money! Its cumulative operating losses since the early nineties approach $30 million dollars.

Can you point me to where I can find those numbers online? That figure seems high. I know the Coliseum's budget is subsidized, as I stated in my previous post. But what the city spends in direct funding or loses in direct revenue, the city and region more than make up for it in booked hotel rooms, patronage of local restaurants and shops, etc. I'm not saying that the Coliseum shouldn't do more to try and offset those costs, like selling naming rights to the main arena, for example. But what irks me about the Coliseum debate is that a lot of people only focus on the direct funding or direct revenue, and not the indirect impact to the economy. Additionally, looking at the Coliseum through a purely financial analysis discounts the cultural and community enrichment goodwill that it provides to citizens across the region, which can't be valued in dollars and cents.

If we determine the value of government programs and facilities solely by the amount of money they make or lose, the Coliseum would only be the tip of the iceberg in terms of government services that would be cut, including public transit, roads and public infrastructure, and disability services, to name just a few.

Edited November 11, 2009 by beyonce245

[d_Random]

Can you point me to where I can find those numbers online? That figure seems high.

I found the information on the Bill Knight web site.

[d_Random]

here is a video presentation by coliseum director Matt Brown.

The Matt Brown shake down continues! Greensboro swim center still needs millions!

Edited November 12, 2009 by d_Random

[Lee street bully]

I really hope the swim center mess gets cleared up. This could work wonders for the local economy if utilized properly.

[d_Random]

I really hope the swim center mess gets cleared up. This could work wonders for the local economy if utilized properly.

It will get cleared up, the tax payers will pay the difference!

[beyonce245]

It will get cleared up, the tax payers will pay the difference!

d_Random, I certainly welcome your comments, but could you at least try to add to the dialogue. I'm interested to hear about your apparent opposition to the swim center. But your little quips so far have failed to shed light on why your opposed to this project.

For those of us that prefer more constructive discussion, here's a memo from the assistant city manager about possible funding sources to close the swim center shortfall. The city council is expected to discuss it at tonight's meeting. So perhaps we'll learn more tomorrow.

[beyonce245]

d_Random, I certainly welcome your comments, but could you at least try to add to the dialogue. I'm interested to hear about your apparent opposition to the swim center. But your little quips so far have failed to shed light on why your opposed to this project.

For those of us that prefer more constructive discussion, here's a memo from the assistant city manager about possible funding sources to close the swim center shortfall. The city council is expected to discuss it at tonight's meeting. So perhaps we'll learn more tomorrow.

City Council voted 7-1 to use funds from the hotel/motel tax to fill the funding gap.

[beyonce245]

City Council has called a special meeting on December 1st to approve an $18,323,961 contract, which represents funds to build the entire aquatics center and the first $2 million for the ACC Hall of Champions. The agenda also mentions consideration of an "installment purchase agreement" for other improvements at the Coliseum. I don't know what that's about, but I've read speculation that it might be for renovations at War Memorial Auditorium.

Mods, you might consider merging this thread and the ACC Hall of Champions thread into one topic about the entire Greensboro Coliseum Complex. Thanks.

Edited November 22, 2009 by beyonce245

[d_Random]

d_Random, I certainly welcome your comments, but could you at least try to add to the dialogue. I'm interested to hear about your apparent opposition to the swim center. But your little quips so far have failed to shed light on why your opposed to this project.

For those of us that prefer more constructive discussion, here's a memo from the assistant city manager about possible funding sources to close the swim center shortfall. The city council is expected to discuss it at tonight's meeting. So perhaps we'll learn more tomorrow.

I am unhappy with the swim center because I thought the way that it got passed was very underhanded.

I the swim center FAILED twice previously to be passed and then it was tacked on to the Parks and Recreations

bond (which historically has been viewed favorably by the public). It was a shell game.

This swim center will NOT benefit most people of greensboro, only the well-to-do families that have kids

on swim teams.

Now we learn that the previous price tag for the center is well below the actual price to build the center.

And there are no studies provided by anyone that indicate that will recoup the price of this hole in the ground.

The whole thing seems rushed and poorly planned.

[luvdowntowngso]

With the new members of the Greensboro City Council coming on board, this may be the last progressive vote for Greensboro....The last action of the existing city council was to vote 5 to 2 in favor of the Swim Center being built. Trudy Wade and Mary Rakestraw voted against it!

[beyonce245]

With the new members of the Greensboro City Council coming on board, this may be the last progressive vote for Greensboro....The last action of the existing city council was to vote 5 to 2 in favor of the Swim Center being built. Trudy Wade and Mary Rakestraw voted against it!

Not unexpected votes from Wade and Rakestraw. The vote was actually 7-2. A good last vote for Mayor Johnson. Can't wait to see ground broken.

[cityboi]

Well it looks like new city councilman and conservative Danny Thompson wants to overturn councils vote tonight by making a motion to resend the contract and stir the pot on the financing for this swim center. Apparently this political stunt was planned and those on the council who voted in favor of the swim center was blindsighted tonight. The conservative members of council are trying to railroad this project. The next 2 years look very bleak for Greensboro and I think we are going to see an even further divided city council after what happened tonight. Ultimately this swin center will still get built because even with the new council members, those that are against it still dont have the votes. But the city now faces a bigger issue. The mindset of people like Danny Thompson is the reason Greensboro has lagged behind Charlotte and Raleigh for decades. Its the very reason why we dont have the kind of jobs that are in Charlotte and the Triangle because the lack of forward and progressive thinking leadership. It seems that some people want to strangle Greensboro's progress. With this new mayor and city council Greensboro has taken a step back. Expect to see a fight against the parking deck for the planned hotel at South Elm and Lee Streets or any kind of incentives to help downtown and city development folks. Let the fireworks begin!

Edited December 2, 2009 by cityboi

[beyonce245]

Well it looks like new city councilman and conservative Danny Thompson wants to overturn councils vote tonight by making a motion to resend the contract and stir the pot on the financing for this swim center. Apparently this political stunt was planned and those on the council who voted in favor of the swim center was blindsighted tonight. The conservative members of council are trying to railroad this project. The next 2 years look very bleak for Greensboro and I think we are going to see an even further divided city council after what happened tonight. Ultimately this swin center will still get built because even with the new council members, those that are against it still dont have the votes. But the city now faces a bigger issue. The mindset of people like Danny Thompson is the reason Greensboro has lagged behind Charlotte and Raleigh for decades. Its the very reason why we dont have the kind of jobs that are in Charlotte and the Triangle because the lack of forward and progressive thinking leadership. It seems that some people want to strangle Greensboro's progress. With this new mayor and city council Greensboro has taken a step back. Expect to see a fight against the parking deck for the planned hotel at South Elm and Lee Streets or any kind of incentives to help downtown and city development folks. Let the fireworks begin!

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed (i.e. Mayor Pro Tem Nancy Vaughan) and further discussion was moved to the December 15th meeting. Council member Jim Kee also rightly asked for a special briefing session on the aquatic center, so that the council can make informed decision, unlike the horse trading that was happening tonight.

And not to veer off topic, the reasons why Greensboro and the Triad haven't grown as fast as our neighbors to the East and South is much more complex than people like Danny Thompson. The Triangle has had 50 years of job growth from RTP and Charlotte, of course, has had the big banks (R.I.P. Wachovia). And growth is more than jobs, but I won't further deviate from the topic at hand.

I have a feeling that when the new council gets acquainted with the nitty gritty of municipal governing, they'll find it much much harder than they appeared to think it is tonight.

I'm also confident the aquatic center will be built. And there will certainly be other challenges ahead with this new council. So get involved and speak up.

[cityboi]

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed (i.e. Mayor Pro Tem Nancy Vaughan) and further discussion was moved to the December 15th meeting. Council member Jim Kee also rightly asked for a special briefing session on the aquatic center, so that the council can make informed decision, unlike the horse trading that was happening tonight.

And not to veer off topic, the reasons why Greensboro and the Triad haven't grown as fast as our neighbors to the East and South is much more complex than people like Danny Thompson. The Triangle has had 50 years of job growth from RTP and Charlotte, of course, has had the big banks (R.I.P. Wachovia). And growth is more than jobs, but I won't further deviate from the topic at hand.

I agree its complex because the universities played a huge part in the Triangle becoming a research mecca but its the mindset. Raleigh and Charlotte have had a more progressive mindset for decades now. Past leadership here didnt think Greensboro needed to change and was conservative at taking risks. It caught up with us with all the job losses in our traditional industries. This is what I fear with the new council. The stunt that was pulled tonight was just a preview of what to expect for at least the next two years. Im afraid it may be longer because its always difficult to unseat an incumbent.

Edited December 2, 2009 by cityboi

[beyonce245]

I agree its complex because the universities played a huge part in the Triangle becoming a research mecca but its the mindset. Raleigh and Charlotte have had a more progressive mindset for decades now. Past leadership here didnt think Greensboro needed to change and was conservative at taking risks. It caught up with us with all the job losses in our traditional industries. This is what I fear with the new council. The stunt that was pulled tonight was just a preview of what to expect for at least the next two years. Im afraid it may be longer because its always difficult to unseat an incumbent.

I'm with you. This certainly isn't my dream city council. I'm about as liberal as they come But I'm not going to harp on the past or what Greensboro did or did not do, because none of us can change it. And comparing Greensboro to Raleigh or Charlotte doesn't help either, because they are all fundamentally different places. It's ok and even good to know what other cities in the state are doing. But we should focus more about what we can do to make Greensboro a better city and the Triad a better region.

Back on topic. I don't think the swim center is in jeopardy. After all, it would be hard for the so-called fiscal conservatives who tried to table it tonight to explain how, wasting the $1.5+ million that's already been spent on the center's design, is good stewardship of the city's finances that they proclaim they embody.

[cityboi]

I'm with you. This certainly isn't my dream city council. I'm about as liberal as they come But I'm not going to harp on the past or what Greensboro did or did not do, because none of us can change it. And comparing Greensboro to Raleigh or Charlotte doesn't help either, because they are all fundamentally different places. It's ok and even good to know what other cities in the state are doing. But we should focus more about what we can do to make Greensboro a better city and the Triad a better region.

Back on topic. I don't think the swim center is in jeopardy. After all, it would be hard for the so-called fiscal conservatives who tried to table it tonight to explain how, wasting the $1.5+ million that's already been spent on the center's design, is good stewardship of the city's finances that they proclaim they embody.

Add to the fact that the public approved the bonds for the swim center and the remaining portion of it will be paid with a hotel/motel tax. blocking the swim center is going against the will of the people. The council members opposed to it really are trying to stop this, but I think they are trying to send a message to existing council members and score political points with their constituents and say look im fighting for you. Its all politics. Its unfortunate that we have council member playing politics. Also delaying this is costing city taxpayers so it really is hypocritical of these so called physical conservative council members. They know its a done deal so why drag this out? The council is more politically divided than ever. That was confirmed when Danny Thompson said to the media "We Won". What a way to start out on a clean slate. jeez. Danny didnt even have the guts to explain why he wanted to overturn the previous council's vote. Trudy Wade had to speak for him. After he made the motion he looked like a scared little boy. City Council is suppose to be non-partisan board and it seems that all started changed when former Guilford County commissioners were elected to city-council. Thats when all the bitter fighting started.

Edited December 2, 2009 by cityboi

[d_Random]

Add to the fact that the public approved the bonds for the swim center and the remaining portion of it will be paid with a hotel/motel tax. blocking the swim center is going against the will of the people. The council members opposed to it really are trying to stop this, but I think they are trying to send a message to existing council members and score political points with their constituents and say look im fighting for you. Its all politics. Its unfortunate that we have council member playing politics. Also delaying this is costing city taxpayers so it really is hypocritical of these so called physical conservative council members. They know its a done deal so why drag this out? The council is more politically divided than ever. That was confirmed when Danny Thompson said to the media "We Won". What a way to start out on a clean slate. jeez. City Council is suppose to be non-partisan board and it seems that all started changed when former Guilford County commissioners were elected to city-council. Thats when all the bitter fighting started.

Cityboi-

Actually I think the citizens were duped into voting for this swim center. If you recall a bond for a swim center FAILED TWICE before being tacked onto the Parks and Recreation bond (which has historically passed). And now we learn that the previous cost projections were way off.

What do you think the chances that a swim center bond would have passed (not tacked to Parks and Recreation bond) with a $20 million price tag in a down economy? ZERO chance!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 2, 2009 by d_Random

[Beany]

I am for the swim center just as I have always been for the coliseum however the methods which were used to get this swim center were not clear and honest. Attaching it to the parks and rec bond was sketchy but then when you find out the true cost to be 6 million higher than the voted bond people have a right to be angry. This was a slick political maneuver to get it built. 'Let's slide it in a P&R bond at $10 million to give it the best chance to pass then we'll pick up the rest of the tab outside voter approval. From my seat that is how it went down.

On a personal level I am excited about it. These are the types of venues which help to make a city prosperous, attractive to companies and people, and hence possible job growth. I know conservatives will argue that low taxes is what is attractive to companies, but if that were exclusively the case you wouldn't have companies relocating and expanding in places like Charlotte, Raleigh, and Atlanta. Instead you would see them opening up shop in towns like Pleasant Garden which epitomize conservative principles.

Again I am for it but those against it have a very good case for argument.

[d_Random]

I am for the swim center just as I have always been for the coliseum however the methods which were used to get this swim center were not clear and honest. Attaching it to the parks and rec bond was sketchy but then when you find out the true cost to be 6 million higher than the voted bond people have a right to be angry. This was a slick political maneuver to get it built. 'Let's slide it in a P&R bond at $10 million to give it the best chance to pass then we'll pick up the rest of the tab outside voter approval. From my seat that is how it went down.

I agree with you Beany. They did not do this in an honest way. And the way the old council voted on this pool as a parting shot to screw the tax payers was beneath contempt.

Edited December 2, 2009 by d_Random

[cityboi]

I dont want to turn this into a liberal vs conservative thread but some good points were brought up. If you look at most of the large and prosperous cities, most are liberal and use more liberal methods in growing the local economy. They are progressive communities. Many of the more conservative towns are typically small, resistant to change. Some have dried up and jobs have moved away. This is why I have a problem with the conservative mentality on city council. My bet is that if city council were 100% conservative, the Swim Center would have died a long time. It wouldn't have even made it to the ballot. Maybe there was an issue with how the swim center was pushed through. But all in all I think most of the community supports this project. We are in tough times and anything that brings economic growth to our community is welcome.

Edited December 2, 2009 by cityboi

[Beany]

In a perfect society no one should be taxed for something non-essential for which they do not believe in--e.g. swim centers and coliseums. Ideally citizens who support these endeavors would petition among themselves to pay for it and those who don't won't be burdened against their will for a non-essential item. However, nothing in our society is ideal so we all get to be angry and bitter at times.