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Charlotte and Atlanta


sanka

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I don't think Charlotte will ever be Atlanta. I get weary of the comparisons. I'm not sure where I stand on Charlotte's uptown and affordability. Middle class people can afford to live there, its just that they have to decide if they want 1,200 square feet in a condo or 2,500 in a house on a cul de sac in the burbs. $350K will get you either. It's a matter of choice.

Likewise, there is a huge determination of what is "inner city". For a city of its size, our center is rather small geographically (looking inside the loop only). But if you include Dilworth, Elizabeth, Myers Park, Cherry, Wesley Heights, etcetera, then you have far more choices. Overlayed on the Loop in Chicago or Midtown Manhattan, all fit rather well. Where do we draw the line? Also, how many economic groups should be able to afford to live uptown? If all incomes should be able to find housing of all price points uptown, should lower-income groups be guaranteed home sites in new developments in Ballantyne, Davidson and Cornelius? They are all employment centers too. The only way Davidson has remained affordable for employees of Davidson College is that the college itself maintains a program with certain housing developments in town.

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Im sure like atlanta, Charlotte has no natural features to contain its expantion, like Philly, NY etc.

I dont know much about the system in Charlotte, but my guess is that they have euclidian zoning like everyone else. It would be nice to see a form based code overlay imposed. at least so as of right the developer had choices.

I would hope with Charlotte the "inner city" would not expand like Atlantas...I keep thinking how exciting Atlantas downtown would be if the skylines of Midtown, Buckhead, Dunwoody area were consolodated. It would have to be on the order of Chicago almost in appearence!

is there any talk of connecting the satelite towns to downtown with transit?? the Dilworth, Elizabeth, Myers Park, Cherry, Wesley Heights...

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I dont know much about the system in Charlotte, but my guess is that they have euclidian zoning like everyone else. It would be nice to see a form based code overlay imposed. at least so as of right the developer had choices.

A hybrid version of this is occurring in some portions of Charlotte. We are creating TOD and PED zonings that are more form based, but they are still restricted to certain areas. The fact is, many people in Charlotte for some reason still believe that their property values would decrease if they lived close to shops, businesses etc, even though the evidence here suggests strongly otherwise. Many prefer to be surrounded by seas of single-family residences.

The word towns in describing Dilworth, Cherry etc. is throwing me off, since they are neighborhoods adjacent to the CBD and definetly within Charlotte's municipal limits. There is currently a streetcar plan in place that will connect some. Elizabeth should have a streetcar within 5 years, Wesley Heights within 8 years, and Dilworth....well, in the distant future (though the LRT will run within a quarter-mile of the neighborhood). MP and Cherry are not on any future streetcar or LRT plans....at least any that have been formally presented.

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Funny you should mention PED and TOD. I went to the DCDA meeting last night which lasted from 7:30-9:30 :shok: It was very informative and I learned a lot, but the terminology is so arcane I don't know how the DCDA Zoning Issues Board Members don't have a nervous breakdown :w00t: Most of us at the meeting were in favor of TOD and PED with buffers to protect houses in relation to the new condos and apts that are going up everywhere around here. Atlanta was a curse word last night :P but people have to realize that more growth is coming. There is tendency among some in Dilworth to be against any change. Last night someone said "if it does happen in Dilworth than we don't care'". It was said in jest..I hope. Dilworth and the other gentrified neighborhoods are not gated communities, we are inextricably linked to the city and some people just can't accept that fact.

edit: "does not"

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I can imagine a great number of Charlotte intown residents would be concerned about what has concerned many Atlanta intown residents - infill. For some, infill has become a dirty word as they view many of the developments as inferior to the existing neighborhood. Again - this is an assumption that multi-use or mixed use developments have no place in the established inner-ring neighborhoods such as Grant Park or Inman Park. Corridor oriented developments are also a concern as a number of low rise condo / apartment buildings have been built adjacent to predominately single family neighborhoods.

Those are NIMBYist concerns of course, but resistance to change is common. Many of the intown residents of Atlanta had made great pains to 'gentrify' the neighborhoods in the 70's & 80's, & are very protective of their investment. The view of urbanizing streetcar suburbs, even in ex-industrial or commercial corridors is often opposed, as the plans for the development of the Beltline corridor has shown. Too often we assume intown residents share our common vision of urbanization and pedestrian & transit orientation but intown residents most often share the same concerns as outer suburban residents. They want a place to park their car, they don't want outsiders/traffic in their neighborhood & they want to protect their exclusivity.

Form based zoning has become common in many City of Atlanta business districts as well as corridors. But the concept will most certainly meet opposition in traditional single family neighborhoods in the city & certainly outside the city.

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I am sure this has been discussed before...but I'm new so I thought I would throw it out there. As a native to Atlanta I am really ready to get out. The sprawl is awful, traffic is awful, the Braves will never be like they were in 1991 :P , but basically its just the cities growth pattern that has really turned me off to the city. It really had an oppertunity to be great and has really blown it. Not to say that it wont be great in the future, but I have a feeling I will be long dead by that time. I kind of feel like Charlotte may be a good city to work and live and watch grow raise kids etc, but I have a few reservations.

To those of you living in Charlotte...

Do you feel the city will become another Atlanta in 30 years? I read through a few threads that there is an anti urban contingency in Charlotte making smart growth difficult.

I read a few snipits of a light rail system proposed...is it located where the density is in Charlotte?

Is there a lot of history in Charlotte? Turn of the century neighborhoods and towncenters and such... Those tend to be more walkable...for that matter are there walkable communities in Charlotte?? (ie Atlanta's Decatur, Buckhead etc)

Atlanta makes me want to :sick: sometimes...I still get excited about the cities new developments (that are getting better) but the few walkable communities in the city or burbs are starting to get expensive.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

oh yeah...i cant believe Charlotte proper has a larger population than Atlanta proper...

Charlotte has it's bright spots, as does Atlanta, but sadly, it is going down the sprawling sunbelt pattern. Charlotte has very nice neighborhoods inside the city limits, which shocks northerners where the inner city is a ghetto. The Dilworth, Myers Park, Elizabeth, etc. areas are among the most upscale anywhere, without the highrise of Buckhead (no offense to Buckhead). Myers Park could be Druid Hills if you didn't know better. It is encouraging that Charlotte bloomed later than Atlanta and could have time to improve its development before it goes too far and it won't be nearly as hard as it will be for Atlanta. Cities and people in the USA are awakening to the fact that cities cannot go on forever bulldozing forests, soil, and farms to build strip malls, look alike cul de sac neighborhoods, big box chain retailers and restaurants and service stations all connected by traffic and ozone choked multi lane highways. A growing city must expand, but it can expand better than they do today. Not every tree or farm has to be destroyed and in fact, the entire forest can be preserved as shown by some new developments.

As for Charlotte having a larger population, you would too if you could annex most of the county your in, as Charlotte has done. It's growth is mostly through annexation. I've seen figures that show Charlotte's growth wouldn't be nearly as great as it is if it had static boundaries and that Atlanta's growth actually exceeds Charlotte without annexation. Atlanta has a problem with it's suburbs because the city was once incompetent. It was not a good place to live at all in the not so distant past. It has changed dramatically, but I guess old memories die hard. Let's hope Charlotte can take the opportunity at hand and make it better.

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It is our "car culture" that has the south sprawling out of control. Question is who has the initiative to ride a bus or train to work or to play. Atlanta is the king of highways in the south. So can you blame people for wanting to live further out when there is a 12 lane highway 2 miles from your house. If that highway was a connected bus and train line how different would the growth be? People would still want the added "security" of living in the suburbs. I agree that making the suburbs more urban because there is a lot of space in both of these cities and people like that obviously.

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Charlotte has it's bright spots, as does Atlanta, but sadly, it is going down the sprawling sunbelt pattern. Charlotte has very nice neighborhoods inside the city limits, which shocks northerners where the inner city is a ghetto. The Dilworth, Myers Park, Elizabeth, etc. areas are among the most upscale anywhere, without the highrise of Buckhead (no offense to Buckhead). Myers Park could be Druid Hills if you didn't know better. It is encouraging that Charlotte bloomed later than Atlanta and could have time to improve its development before it goes too far and it won't be nearly as hard as it will be for Atlanta. Cities and people in the USA are awakening to the fact that cities cannot go on forever bulldozing forests, soil, and farms to build strip malls, look alike cul de sac neighborhoods, big box chain retailers and restaurants and service stations all connected by traffic and ozone choked multi lane highways. A growing city must expand, but it can expand better than they do today. Not every tree or farm has to be destroyed and in fact, the entire forest can be preserved as shown by some new developments.

As for Charlotte having a larger population, you would too if you could annex most of the county your in, as Charlotte has done. It's growth is mostly through annexation. I've seen figures that show Charlotte's growth wouldn't be nearly as great as it is if it had static boundaries and that Atlanta's growth actually exceeds Charlotte without annexation. Atlanta has a problem with it's suburbs because the city was once incompetent. It was not a good place to live at all in the not so distant past. It has changed dramatically, but I guess old memories die hard. Let's hope Charlotte can take the opportunity at hand and make it better.

Up North, not all neighborhoods in the inner city are ghetto...

What is shocking is that the inner city looks like a suburb. I guess thats the attraction...

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Up North, not all neighborhoods in the inner city are ghetto...

What is shocking is that the inner city looks like a suburb. I guess thats the attraction...

You're right, not ALL of them are total ghetto, I should have worded that differently. However, I have had many northerners brag about how much nicer central Charlotte is than where they were from.

The cities that I have been to up north are among the worst ones when it comes to poor areas. I've been to Cleveland and unfortunately most of what I saw in the inner city was less than desirable to say the least. It may be much better now ( I hope it is). I think you are right about Charlotte being more suburban in nature, because I've heard that before. People from up north aren't used to big wide open spaces and lots of trees in an urban setting. In some ways it is one of the southern cities' main attractions. Northerners are just as turned on by suburbia as the rest of the nation, no doubt. I don't mean any slight to the northern cities at all, they're just different. Southern cities have had thier problems, too. They have suffered white flight, ruinous population plunges, and dying neighborhoods.

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That is one of my favorite topics - how we define 'urban' or 'suburban'. Certainly it does appear that we are more liberal in using 'urban' than those from established cities. Because Dilworth is an inner-ring suburb as are most of Atlanta's intown neighborhoods.

It doesn't bother me too much - but it does bother me knowing that we lost real urban neighborhoods due to urban renewal. Atlanta has very few pre-1900 urban communities - similar to Charlotte's Fourth Ward (I hope that is the neighborhood I'm thinking of).

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Foxcroft is a suburban cul de sac neighborhood of the type that people here often speak out against. Single use and pretty boring. That is why nobody is complaining about it as you know what you are getting there. And of course Atlanta has a bunch of these too.

The questions is, is downtown Charlotte anything beyond a glorified office park, with some expensive evening entertainment thrown in, (Basketball, football, highend restaurants, booze gardens, etc) and condos for the rich. Shut out the middle class from the city, which is what all of the development is doing right now, and you end up with the classic conditions for sprawl. As I said earlier, the CCP, the Chamber, the Business leaders and most anyone else in the city are completely ignoring development in most of the city and much of the city is dying as a result. For example there is literally $billions being spent inside the inner loop, yet just a few miles away, Eastland mall is dying a quick and painful death and when it does, its going to take a lot with it.

Its because of this that places such as Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson are thriving.

I completely agree. You just summarized exactly what Charlotte is. You're a scholar!

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