Highrise apartment in Charlotte. Is it feasible?

[Miesian Corners]

My own personal spending is private even though my decisions are certainly affected by laws and government. The public economy, in my view, is direct outlay by a government agency.

You sure about that one? I'll bet every store or website in which you shop knows all about your personal spending. Not the least bit private.

[atlrvr]

Just a thought.....does anyone think that if we banned EIFS in Charlotte, that it would lower land costs? The theory is that development costs can only go so high, and beyond that point there will be no demand.....so, in that case only parcels that are priced at a more modest level to compensate for higher materials cost would be developed, putting downward pressure on pricing.

It certainly doesn't help affordable housing, but it could lead to more attractive buildings, and perhaps the possibility of more mid-rises if land prices do move slightly lower.

Really, I just want EIFS banned, and I'm looking for a logical reason to support my cause.

[dubone]

I'll get behind you on an EIFS ban . I'm not sure on the other ramefications, but to me, it'll lead to lower long term maintenance costs, which leads to improved net afforability over the lifetime of a development.

[monsoon]

EFIS is banned in many counties in Eastern NC because it is really difficult to install properly. If not done properly, it lets moisture enter the walls then traps it leading to black mold and framing to rot if it is made of wood. In Mecklenburg developers fought similar restrictions, because of course, it will cost them money.

That is probably your best bet from a legal standpoint to get it banned, but don't expect much support from the "We love anything the developers do" Charlotte politicians.

[crispin]

How much cheaper is EIFS than "organic" siding?

[dubone]

The key cost savings from EIFS is apparently its low weight, so it doesn't need much structural support, they just slap it up on top of the insulation boards.

[atlrvr]

Here is a quote from a masonary supplier for the installed cost per square foot.

Stacked Brick = $14.27

EIFS = $17.38

Precast Concrete = $22.81

Lastly, Brick Veneer which is the "brick" panels. = $13.30

So not taking what dubone said into account (the need for more structural reinforcement), EIFS saved $275k in the cost of courtside (assuming 50,000 sq. ft. clad in it).......what kind of car does Furman drive?

[monsoon]

$275K buys a pretty nice ride. LOL

[dubone]

Hopefully he reinvested that profit into his other projects.

I wonder why brick isn't used more. It is a traditional building material, it is local, and assuming atlrvr's numbers are accurate, it is cheaper. The steel framing that seems to be part of the EIFS construction process has got to be more expensive these days.

[atlrvr]

Hopefully he reinvested that profit into his other projects.

I wonder why brick isn't used more. It is a traditional building material, it is local, and assuming atlrvr's numbers are accurate, it is cheaper. The steel framing that seems to be part of the EIFS construction process has got to be more expensive these days.

It aluminum framing right? I don't think it has risen as much as steel, but that's simply a guess.

Also, while brick is cheaper for flat facades, I believe when you get into detail work like cornices, balconies, eaves, etc.... that EIFS is cheaper for these applications because it is easier to manipulate and create relief in.

[monsoon]

I think the numbers listed above for installed brick are a bit low. Putting up a wall clad in brick is a lot more labor intensive than putting up an EFIS wall. Aluminium has gone up a great deal in price also.

[atlrvr]

I think I worded wrong what those quotes were for. That did not include labor, so I guess I shouldn't have said installed. Those quotes were for the entire installation system (framing etc.) for each technique.

When labor is taken into account, I'm sure that EIFS is more comparable in cost to brick and that a brick veneer is the cheapest by far (of course it didn't save UNCC any money as the brick panels are now being replaced by real masonary).

[crispin]

Those are really striking numbers.

How much did Courtside cost total? I'm wondering what the percentage increase in total cost would be if they hadn't used the ugly stuff.

[atlrvr]

It was around $35M I think, so about 1% maybe.....the way I looked at it was it would have added betwen $2,500 and $3,000 per unit for precast (though maybe more if additional support columns were needed). Would the buyers have been willing to pay the premium? Probably.....of course, maybe they did and Furman pocketed the savings...who knows.

[monsoon]

So what constitutes the outer walls of a condo in Courtside? Is it nothing more than sheetrock on aluminum framing, a membrane and EFIS? If so, I wouldn't want to be in the thing during high winds.

[dubone]

Although it might not technically be a "highrise" Emporis definition, it is pretty darn close. The new 11 story apartment building at South and Tremont appears to be a trend that is beginning. There is another around the same height going in "C" at Park Ave and South.

My guess is that if the economics work for one, it will likely work for many more along the south corridor. Not only do you have lower land prices, but you have the urban design guidelines that will help build out new urban neighborhoods without the steep land prices. We therefore have some economics for apartments.

And while not uptown, it will be a 5 minute train ride for a buck or so. Also, from Tremont and even Remount and Scaleybark, the skyline views will be great.

[dubone]

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http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33174