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TYSONS CORNER

Tunnel Is Affordable, Advocate Group Says

A group of Northern Virginia business leaders and residents presented detailed plans yesterday that they said prove that a Metro tunnel through Tysons Corner could be built at an affordable price, raising the pressure on Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) and federal officials who have decided the underground route isn't realistic.

"Once they see this information, it will be very difficult for them to say no," said the group's leader, Scott Monett, in presenting the plans at the Fairfax County Government Center. "Now, the ball's in their court. We've given [them]what they need."

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In a related story,

Fairfax Urges Another Look At a Tunnel Under Tysons

Supervisors' Vote Reflects Growing Discontent With an Overhead Track

PH2007010801507.jpg

The state is proceeding with plans for an elevated track, shown in a photo simulation, through Tysons. (Dulles Corridor Metrorail Project)

The Fairfax County Board of Supervisors endorsed yesterday a last-minute effort by businesses and residents to bury a proposed Metrorail extension beneath Tysons Corner -- even as Virginia officials move closer to approving a contract for an aboveground route.
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Its interesting that a tunnel would cost about the same to build as the elevated structure and millions less to maintain... seems like a tunnel is the obvious way to go to me. Plus its out of sight, and it will be more likely to encourage the same type of urban development you see around other metro stations in the District.

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Interesting. Suburban lines haven't proven to be very successful. There is a line in New York from Queens to Brooklyn that is relatively lightly used when compared to the other lines. The Circle line in London isn't on the periphery of the dense urban core either. Don't misunderstand me, I'd like to see this go through.... I just think it will be a very hard sell, especially given the trouble they're having with the line to Tysons.
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Wow, I didn't even know the purple line was essentially a suburban circle.

I think in a city with such a strong core as DC, the purple line will indeed see lower ridership than the other lines that pass through the core; but then again, DC also has relatively strong edge city submarkets (e.g., Tysons Corner) and strong suburban growth rates. I suppose such a line would work in metro areas where more people commute from suburb to suburb, rather than from suburb to central city, but it remains to be seen how this will work in the DC area.

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The purple line, AKA the bi-county transitway, will certainly see less ridership than the existing WMATA heavy rail lines into the core of DC. The purple line is, however, proposed as a light rail or BRT line, either of which will be much less expensive to construct than a heavy rail subway. The line will go underground through downtown Bethesda (there's already a tunnel there, under Wisconsin Ave, from the old B&O Georgetown Branch days) and through downtown Silver Spring (the route there isn't decided yet.) Most of the rest of the line through UMD, etc. on to New Carrolton will be at-grade with grade crossings.

Something that kind of struck me as another interesting idea was extending the Purple Line to Annapolis. From New Carrolton, it could follow US 50 all the way to Annapolis, head just north of the highway for a stop at the Annapolis Mall, and follow the old abandoned Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis Electric right-of-way into town from there (Google Maps shows it as largely intact until here.) The line could either end there or continue on street to St. Johns and the naval academy.

Are there large numbers of DC-bound commuters in and around Annapolis? I'm not sure if this extension would be given any priority at all. It would add 20 miles onto the 14 miles of purple line that are currently planned. Definitely more of an interurban sort of thing. But hey, maybe it would be useful.

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The purple line, AKA the bi-county transitway, will certainly see less ridership than the existing WMATA heavy rail lines into the core of DC. The purple line is, however, proposed as a light rail or BRT line, either of which will be much less expensive to construct than a heavy rail subway. The line will go underground through downtown Bethesda (there's already a tunnel there, under Wisconsin Ave, from the old B&O Georgetown Branch days) and through downtown Silver Spring (the route there isn't decided yet.) Most of the rest of the line through UMD, etc. on to New Carrolton will be at-grade with grade crossings.

Something that kind of struck me as another interesting idea was extending the Purple Line to Annapolis. From New Carrolton, it could follow US 50 all the way to Annapolis, head just north of the highway for a stop at the Annapolis Mall, and follow the old abandoned Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis Electric right-of-way into town from there (Google Maps shows it as largely intact until here.) The line could either end there or continue on street to St. Johns and the naval academy.

Are there large numbers of DC-bound commuters in and around Annapolis? I'm not sure if this extension would be given any priority at all. It would add 20 miles onto the 14 miles of purple line that are currently planned. Definitely more of an interurban sort of thing. But hey, maybe it would be useful.

Edited by NovaWolverine
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The Purple Line could not possibly in any practical way go to Annapolis. The Purple Line is supposed to be the suburban circle, rail parallel to the Beltway, connector to the inner suburbs of MD and VA, or any circular representation you want to give.

The Purple Line SHOULD NOT AT ALL be a light rail. It is TO SIGNIFICANT OF A ROUTE to be a relatively slowing moving, smaller capacity light rail line. It would optimally go thru Tysons Corner, National Harbor, Silver Springs, Franconia-Springfield, and Largo Town Center among other inner suburb stops. The distance is to far and the route to important to be "penny pinchers" and revert to the cost saving analysis that goes with propagating for a light rail.

I'm not an idealist completely on this subject, because I know a completed Purple Line would be mighty expensive, underground, grade level, or elevated, or all of the above. Although like the Tysons Corner "underground saga" it is becoming clearer that with the latest technology it is not as expensive as it once was. Not to mention the fact that, two (2) bridges or tunnels will have to be built so that the Purple Line crosses the Potomac twice. Most of the Beltway is in Maryland, and the Purple Line will mirror just that feature about perfectly. So once a preliminary draft study of a completed Purple Line is done, it will allow Maryland and VA officials to see about what percentage each state should be paying, and then allow room for maybe DC and federal government financial support to help out as well.

Purple Line needs to be Heavy Rail. Dig in those pockets and find the dough, and get some politicians that understand the larger multigenerational vision of how the Purple Line would enhance the DC metro enormously.

I will say though that the Green Line to BWI is a bigger priority in my opinion for now, but once the Silver Line (hopefully with underground in Tysons) is underway, and the Green Line gets its money together, the Purple should be a project that MD and VA can work together, obviously. So yeah, once the Green Line is under construction, the Purple should be very next priority.

Edited by urbanaturalist
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The Purple Line could not possibly in any practical way go to Annapolis. The Purple Line is supposed to be the suburban circle, rail parallel to the Beltway, connector to the inner suburbs of MD and VA, or any circular representation you want to give.

The Purple Line SHOULD NOT AT ALL be a light rail. It is TO SIGNIFICANT OF A ROUTE to be a relatively slowing moving, smaller capacity light rail line. It would optimally go thru Tysons Corner, National Harbor, Silver Springs, Franconia-Springfield, and Largo Town Center among other inner suburb stops. The distance is to far and the route to important to be "penny pinchers" and revert to the cost saving analysis that goes with propagating for a light rail.

I'm not an idealist completely on this subject, because I know a completed Purple Line would be mighty expensive, underground, grade level, or elevated, or all of the above. Although like the Tysons Corner "underground saga" it is becoming clearer that with the latest technology it is not as expensive as it once was. Not to mention the fact that, two (2) bridges or tunnels will have to be built so that the Purple Line crosses the Potomac twice. Most of the Beltway is in Maryland, and the Purple Line will mirror just that feature about perfectly. So once a preliminary draft study of a completed Purple Line is done, it will allow Maryland and VA officials to see about what percentage each state should be paying, and then allow room for maybe DC and federal government financial support to help out as well.

Purple Line needs to be Heavy Rail. Dig in those pockets and find the dough, and get some politicians that understand the larger multigenerational vision of how the Purple Line would enhance the DC metro enormously.

I will say though that the Green Line to BWI is a bigger priority in my opinion for now, but once the Silver Line (hopefully with underground in Tysons) is underway, and the Green Line gets its money together, the Purple should be a project that MD and VA can work together, obviously. So yeah, once the Green Line is under construction, the Purple should be very next priority.

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The Purple Line SHOULD NOT AT ALL be a light rail. It is TO[sic] SIGNIFICANT OF A ROUTE to be a relatively slowing[sic] moving, smaller capacity light rail line. It would optimally go thru[sic] Tysons Corner, National Harbor, Silver Springs, Franconia-Springfield, and Largo Town Center among other inner suburb stops. The distance is to[sic] far and the route to[sic] important to be "penny pinchers" and revert to the cost saving analysis that goes with propagating for a light rail.
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It would be nice if all transit routes everywhere were always built as heavy rail. The problem is, we're not really talking about "Penny pinching" here, we're talking about "Multiple Billions of Dollars pinching". The current BRT/LRT plan for the purple line makes pretty good use of existing infrastructure. (Tunnel under Bethesda, Georgetown Branch ROW.) Change to HRT, and you have to start COMPLETELY from scratch, and do basically the whole thing in a tunnel. Yeah, great for transit fans for us. But in the real world, not possible OR necessary at all. To the folks still arguing for the Purple Line to be heavy rail: this train has left the station!

I would like to see the Purple Line built as a rapid transit line (in the early-1900s US sense). This concept is quite compatible with light rail. That would mean that at no point on its route does it need to stop for traffic lights or mix with traffic. But unlike heavy rail transit, grade crossings are fine. Access to platforms is not restricted with physical barriers (gates). Fares are collected on a "proof of payment" system (where transit cops periodically check everybody's tickets.)

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would be nice if all transit routes everywhere were always built as heavy rail. The problem is, we're not really talking about "Penny pinching" here, we're talking about "Multiple Billions of Dollars pinching". The current BRT/LRT plan for the purple line makes pretty good use of existing infrastructure. (Tunnel under Bethesda, Georgetown Branch ROW.) Change to HRT, and you have to start COMPLETELY from scratch, and do basically the whole thing in a tunnel. Yeah, great for transit fans for us. But in the real world, not possible OR necessary at all. To the folks still arguing for the Purple Line to be heavy rail: this train has left the station!

I would like to see the Purple Line built as a rapid transit line (in the early-1900s US sense). This concept is quite compatible with light rail. That would mean that at no point on its route does it need to stop for traffic lights or mix with traffic. But unlike heavy rail transit, grade crossings are fine. Access to platforms is not restricted with physical barriers (gates). Fares are collected on a "proof of payment" system (where transit cops periodically check everybody's tickets.)

I agree. I think light rail and BRT are the future for the region and with the new metro director having developed LA's BRT, I expect him to make that a part of his goal for the area. It really can do a great job and fill in the gaps and it's practical. Still, a lot of stigmas exist, though.
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would be nice if all transit routes everywhere were always built as heavy rail. The problem is, we're not really talking about "Penny pinching" here, we're talking about "Multiple Billions of Dollars pinching". The current BRT/LRT plan for the purple line makes pretty good use of existing infrastructure. (Tunnel under Bethesda, Georgetown Branch ROW.) Change to HRT, and you have to start COMPLETELY from scratch, and do basically the whole thing in a tunnel. Yeah, great for transit fans for us. But in the real world, not possible OR necessary at all. To the folks still arguing for the Purple Line to be heavy rail: this train has left the station!

I would like to see the Purple Line built as a rapid transit line (in the early-1900s US sense). This concept is quite compatible with light rail. That would mean that at no point on its route does it need to stop for traffic lights or mix with traffic. But unlike heavy rail transit, grade crossings are fine. Access to platforms is not restricted with physical barriers (gates). Fares are collected on a "proof of payment" system (where transit cops periodically check everybody's tickets.)

So this is for Orulz and NOVAWolverine. If "that train has already left the station", which is of course, the idea of making the Purple Line completely heavy rail, then that is crying shame. Essentially, no matter if its billions of dollars or not, its still "penny pinching", we all know the stuff cost money, but what are the long term effects of putting together a heavy now versus a heavy rail 30 years from now??????? MORE EXPENSIVE!!.......So the point, I think, is to put in motion projects that have a multigenerational and regional effect that is positive, and I'm sorry to say that light rail is not the right answer for the Purple Line. Once again, I don't dislike light rail, but the Purple Line is not the right route for light rail, its to large of a route.

Right now, Baltimore/Washington metro area has around 8.5 million residents or something around that. Where are the NEXT 2 MILLION PEOPLE GOING to LIVE and WORK Orulz and NOVAWolverine??? They can either ALL move further out into Prince William, Stafford, Loudon counties in VA or the outer suburbs in Maryland or even West Virginia and Pennsylvania. The point I'm making is that a lot of that residential growth and even business and retail growth can be facilitated in the inner suburbs, especially if you have a Purple Line that is heavy rail (fast 60 + mph, high occupancy capacity). Those stops along the Purple can facilitate alot of purposes, transportation and otherwise if its built as a heavy rail.

Orulz and NOVAWolverine, hypothetically speaking, would you like live near say Largo Town Center (possible Purple Line metro stop) and get up in the morning and take a light rail train all the way to Tysons Corner where your job would be??? Maybe you would, but I'm saying that an investment in heavy rail makes that trip a lot faster and more efficient.

Edited by NovaWolverine
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So this is for Orulz and NOVAWolverine. If "that train has already left the station", which is of course, the idea of making the Purple Line completely heavy rail, then that is crying shame. Essentially, no matter if its billions of dollars or not, its still "penny pinching", we all know the stuff cost money, but what are the long term effects of putting together a heavy now versus a heavy rail 30 years from now??????? MORE EXPENSIVE!!.......So the point, I think, is to put in motion projects that have a multigenerational and regional effect that is positive, and I'm sorry to say that light rail is not the right answer for the Purple Line. Once again, I don't dislike light rail, but the Purple Line is not the right route for light rail, its to large of a route.
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