Mon Valley Expressway

[mjcatl2]

Shadyside=City

Mon Valley=burb

Again again - the situation is unique as the "burbs" were created out of their own industries or the sprawling mills of yesterday, not because of folks fled the city

[wanderer34]

Honestly, there should be a moratorium of all the new highways and expressways being built in PA (I-99 - Road to Nowhere, Mon-Fayette, etc.) The only highway I believe that should be an expressway is Roosevelt Blvd in Phila from Broad St to the NE city limits.

As far as the interstate and highway system, it's fine. We don't need any more highways as they'realready sufficient enough to carry the needed traffic. The PA Turnpike doesn't need to be widened to three or four lanes, it's fine with two. And rather than funding the highways to be built, why don't you exten the T subway system to McKeesport, Penn Hills and Monroeville (I believe the bulk of PGH commuters come from the eastern suburbs) and a commuter rail covering SW PA and Wheeling and Morgantown WV. That's what PGH needs!!!

[PghUSA]

Wanderer,

I couldn't agree more with you on the increased funding the T deserves, but we DO need expanded interstate systems and upgrading and lane expansions of our current ones if we are to compete in the global economy this century. Look at our bridges for example. I do think that politicos tend to favor roads at the expense of transit though and that needs to stop.

As far as the Mon Valley expressway I would propose we just expand 51 for the time being to connect the current expressway with the city, and use the funds to beef up 376 and 279.

I do agree that the mon valley towns are unique and don't unduly contribute to sprawl though some will take place. We do live in a democracy so the city needs to realize that to fight sprawl don't put up barriers but put incentives on the table and a need for someone to stay in the city, consolidation would help tons in this.

[wanderer34]

You're right about expanding the width of some expressways, but I don't believe that I-99 and the Mon-Fayette should be major priorities only because they really lead to nowhere and are a waste of taxpayer dollars. If only the federal gov't were moresupportive of railroads the same way they are about the airlines and the automobile, we'd already have two efficient mass transit cities in both our major cities!!!

[PghUSA]

I hear you there, I'm sure you know the answer to your question (why the Feds have been more supportive of auto/roads/gas/aviation then trains and streetcars) lots of great conspiracy novels on that one.

99 was basically Shuster's gold watch (after being born and raised in Glassport he builds a metro level expressway in J-town unfreakinbelievable, all that $$ could have gone to the parkways!). The Mon-Fay shouldn't be compared to 99 but I agree with 79 just a few klicks to the west why build one in the valley, although the right thing to have done is to build 79 IN THE VALLEY in the first place, ahh those oil, concrete, rubber and auto guys wouldn't have wanted that, left them no excuse to build rendundancy into SW pa. then. Sounds like the trolley and subway folk forgot to write the check to K street a generation or two ago. And to think you could have gotten on a streetcar in Uniontown or Monessen and traveled--by streetcar ONLY--to Chicago and beyond just 60 years ago! Congress can kill afterall.

[PghUSA]

Wanderer, you seem like you are really into this masstransit thing, here is a very interesting read for you (and everyone else interested) in how at one time Pittsburgh had a transit system that was the envy of the world and could actually connect you to Cleveland, Detroit, Indy, St. Louis and Chicago!

http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/prev/arc...3/ya011503.html

[Death To Johnstown]

99 was basically Shuster's gold watch (after being born and raised in Glassport he builds a metro level expressway in J-town unfreakinbelievable,

For Altoona, PGH.

I wish he would've had one built for the Johnstown region - the area badly needs better connectors. Hell, the "new 22" is going to better serve the Altoona market from Monroeville, rather than Johnstown's. Everyone from residents to truckers to potential tourists - absolutely hate 403 (Cramer Pike) & 56 (Haws Pike)...trust me.

Rt. 219? Puh-leez...that's the (unfinished highway) "road to nowhere".

[mjcatl2]

The PA Turnpike doesn't need to be widened to three or four lanes, it's fine with two

PA has the worst roads in the country - the worst. The TUrnpike very much does need to be widened as does every highway around Pittsburgh. In fact they are dangerous to carry the traffic that they do i two lanes with 1950s ramps.

There's nothing wrong with connecting the Turnpike to I80 either. It doesn't help PA's smaller cities to be disconnected.

Yeah I want more train travel and commercial activity, but I also want world peace. Let's be realistic and give Altoona some connection to the 20th century. yeah the 2th century.

[blueblackcat]

For Altoona, PGH.

I wish he would've had one built for the Johnstown region - the area badly needs better connectors. Hell, the "new 22" is going to better serve the Altoona market from Monroeville, rather than Johnstown's. Everyone from residents to truckers to potential tourists - absolutely hate 403 (Cramer Pike) & 56 (Haws Pike)...trust me.

Rt. 219? Puh-leez...that's the (unfinished highway) "road to nowhere".

Speaking of Altoona tourism, Horseshoe Curve, Railroader's Museum... hmmmm The Pennsylvanian is a travesty right now with trains slowing down to a crawl to get across the railroad equivalent of potholes. Isn't that ironic? So they're trying to help car-less college students and tourists coming to see the railroad by... expanding a highway. And doing absolutely nothing to fix the railroad. OTOH I just drove to Altoona on 22 this weekend (to drop off a college student who doesn't have a car for spring break) and it really is a justified project, but it's not going to be a full-out expressway either. It's pretty sensible, in fact it should have been done a long time ago before all these ridiculous mega-highway pet projects ever saw the light of day. Like the Mon-Faye, which is incidentally going to drain resources (and has been already) from every other highway project in the entire state, including 22, no matter how the rest of it gets funded.

So, Altoona is one of the few cities that has a direct passanger rail link to Pittsburgh. It is therefore in a select position to directly benefit from expansion of LRT in Pittsburgh itself. It's funny how we can rationalize putting rail and LRT on the back burner for highways every single time. If you look at the list of stations along the Pennsylvanian and consider giving each one of these old industrial towns a direct expressway link to Pittsburgh and Philly, it would literally take 100 Mon-Faye Extentions to do what just fixing the bad spots on this line could do.

[PghUSA]

Oh yeah, Altoona . . . the other J-Town , sorry but most of us "west of the laurel ridge" folks get those easily confused sometimes.

Where would we be without you DTJ!

[UrbaniDesDev]

Isn't it odd that they would have pushed so hard for the Mon-Fay. Why did we need another freeway to Morgantown? Yes, I understand that it is to serve the Mon Valley. It would have made more sense that from Uniontown head toward Cumberland Maryland connecting to I68. This would have given an alternative to DC and avoid the Turnpike. Thus the reason it probably didn't go that route.

The Mon-Fay will hardly benefit these old Mon Valley towns like Clairton or Brownsville. It will more likely benefit townships outside of these towns like Fallowfield or Jefferson where the sprawl can go on and on. I wonder if anyone has done any research as to who the current owners of the lands off the Mon Faye interchanges are. I have no doubt the Turnpike Committee, who knew long ago where the interchanges were to be, knows who the land owners are!

[Death To Johnstown]

Oh yeah, Altoona . . . the other J-Town , sorry but most of us "west of the laurel ridge" folks get those easily confused sometimes.

Where would we be without you DTJ!

Perhaps still somewhat in a daze while being a tad unsurly?

Altoona and Johnstown are definitely two differently distinct regions. Altoona has state-of-the-art highways, a superior convention center/ballpark/economy, and has been twice the size of Johnstown in population for quite some time now. I, for one, certaintly would not make the mistake of confusing Pittsburgh with, say, Cleveland....or perhaps Gary, Indiana.

I agree with blueblackcat that the "new 22" was sorely needed awhile back (at least about 35 years ago) and is definitely a justified project. While not a full-fledged expressway (except from about the Ebensburg main-town proper interchange to I-99), replacing many two & three lane roadway with 4 & 5 lane thourghfares will be an absolutely huge improvement for the entire corridor.

[mjcatl2]

Well both towns are comparable in size really. Altoona may be a bigger town, but Cambria is a more populated county than Blair... in any case they are close to each other need a good jump start.

What are the plans (if any) for 22?

[Death To Johnstown]

Well, really, they just happen to get lumped together (much the way Cambria & Somerset Counties do)- including with the Nielsens. I'm not going to go off on a rant, but it's decidedly "day & night" between the two .

22 will soon be all 4 & 5 lane access (mainly Monroeville/Parkway to I-99/Altoona/(one day)State College) thus, connecting (mainly) the Altoona & Pittsburgh markets.

Pirate call-ups directly from the Double-A Curve will one day be much quicker.

[Evergrey]

I used to live in State College... and always hated making that drive on 22... from Ebensburg to Murrysville was pure hell.

Altoona might have a better mall ... and a better highway... but Johnstown's downtown blows away Altoona's (worst downtown I've ever been to).

[Death To Johnstown]

Altoona might have a better mall ... and a better highway... but Johnstown's downtown blows away Altoona's (worst downtown I've ever been to).

I'll give you that one, but Johnstown's downtown is also slowly disappearing (Swank building demolition-condemned buildings- companies relocating elsewhere- local businesses relocating to posh Richland Township).

[TheGerbil]

Sort of an update. I emailed the Turnpike Commission with some of my concerns, and received this response:

To whom it may concern,

Thank you for taking the time to write us. After speaking with our engineering group, I can offer you the following reply to your email.

To guide the design of the Mon/Fayette Expressway, Design Advisory Teams (DATs) composed of technical members and community members have been formed. One of these DATs covers the area from the Glenwood Bridge to the Mon/Fayette Interchange with Bates St. and the parkway East. One of the focal points of discussion for the Glenwood to Bates DAT is the Bates St./Second Dave. area. The team is working to reduce the visual impact of the expressway from areas such as the technology center. The team is also working improve the pedestrian access from Oakland to the Eliza Furnace Trail, the Technology Center and the riverfront.

You may view information concerning the DATs at www.monfaydat.com.

We hope this information was helpful.

[TheGerbil]

Some additional info. I went to the link given in the email above and read about the Design Advisory Team for the Glenwood to Bates Street area (I work near there so it is the one I am most concerned about).

Some interesting excerpts from the list of issues they are considering:

Maintain or improve community connectivity across the expressway Make bridge crossings friendly to pedestrians, bicyclists and transit.

Increase developable area at the former LTV site (ALMONO); consider moving proposed east bound expressway ramp.

Create proposed street connections in Hazelwood to redevelopment plans by eliminating toll plaza on east bound ramp.

Mitigate impact to Hazelwood historic district and near individually eligible historic property by addressing appearance of expressway in vicinity of historic sites.

Work with the URA to take their plans for the technology park into consideration

It sounds like they have all the right things in mind. And it also sounds like their voices will really be heard when planning this thing. But the catch is this:

The [Turnpike] Commission .... recognizes that the expressway must serve the communities as well as motorists using the roadway and is firmly committed to incorporating community-based ideas wherever technically and financially feasible.

Note the last few words. Emphasis added by me.

[blueblackcat]

It sounds like they have all the right things in mind. And it also sounds like their voices will really be heard when planning this thing. But the catch is this:

Note the last few words. Emphasis added by me.

I also looked and couldn't find any tangible solutions to most of these problems they claim to be addressing. It looks more like they're just trying to sell the idea that this thing HAS to be built and they're such good samaritans for trying to do a few things to make it a little less of a bad thing, so long as it seems reasonable to them. It still comes down to, to me, that this thing isn't even needed in any way.

I'd rather see the Oakland/Glenwood interchange rebuilt. If they claim to be able to fit a whole turnpike in there then surely that screwed up interchange can be made to better handle traffic with a lot less effort. Right now it's so bad that trucks get stuck on the medians sometimes during the winter when they're trying to clear the turns to the ramps. And of course it's a huge bottleneck for all of Oakland.

Then, 2nd Ave should finally get rennovated and opened up all the way into Hazlewood as an urban boulevard. That completely eliminates any need for that final stretch of turnpike and would do wonderfull things to revitalize Hazelwood instead of further destroying it. Once the LTV site is redeveloped by the URA it will be the region's high tech powerhouse. We should have LRT service connecting Monroeville, Downtown (along 2nd Ave), Kennywood, Waterfront, Century 3, etc., with a main junction and a substantial multimodal facility right at the final point of the turnpike. The turnpike should be more than happy to serve that as one of its "final" destinations instead of destroying the whole opportunity to make these things happen by encroaching further into the city.

If the TA was really concerned about having a positive impact, they would be putting options like these on the table instead.

[UrbaniDesDev]

I agree with you. I'm just afraid if they do the Second Avenue line that would surely eliminate the underground route to Oakland. Isn't it ashame. Could you imagine the transit system we would have if we had all the monies spent on the Mon valley expressway? That link to PennFuture's plan for the citizen's alternative is so logical. I find a little comfort in the fact that there is someone out there that has a feasable alternative.

[blueblackcat]

I agree with you. I'm just afraid if they do the Second Avenue line that would surely eliminate the underground route to Oakland.

I think there is a critical mass factor for transit. I don't think a route eliminates the need for others, at least not economically. I think it increases the need for more routes and makes them altogether more viable. The problem is LRT isn't built on the basis of economic benefits but against the begrudging opposition from rural politicians with too much power over transportation.

[TheGerbil]

I agree, the Citizen's Plan is a hundred times better than the Mon-Fay. In fact there are any number of better alternatives. But knowing that those things are very unlikely to happen, I at least feel a little better knowing that the Turnpike Commision is at least considering the issues surrounding their stupid expressway. If it is going to be built, at least maybe it will be done with some concern for the communities it cuts through.

Of course the very best thing would be to not build it at all, but I don't see that happening

[PghUSA]

Maybe this is a ways out of the bounds of rational thought but who else among us thinks it is kind of strange that after 150 years the internal combustion engine hasn't really changed one iota. That alone isn't a big deal but realize that we split the atom, landed on the moon, created the internet and cell phones, the microwave oven, the radio then the TV then cable and sattelite, cured polio, VD and smallpox all in that time. In some ways I really do believe we are 5-10 years away from personal hovercrafts and the like. It's just me but I would hate for us to have had the same cooking, communication or entertainment technology that we had 150 years ago STILL be cutting edge.

Just a rant more then anything.

[TheGerbil]

Haha, I never thought about it like that. Interesting point.

[blueblackcat]

Maybe this is a ways out of the bounds of rational thought but who else among us thinks it is kind of strange that after 150 years the internal combustion engine hasn't really changed one iota.

I think the electric tram is as old as the electric motor. What's strange is that one has dominated the other for so long in most cities. Everyone seems to think that's just economics, but that's precicely the opposite of what economics would say has the biggest marginal benefits to develop. It's not that "people want cars," it's just irrational policy decisions to use public funds tofinance of the highway system without any matching funds for LRT. What it comes down to is that we started out as an agricultural economy and rural districts have been over-represented in government ever since.

Until that changes or LRT starts going from farmhouse to farmhouse and subdivision to strip mall, urbanity just has to wait and suffer. So what's the turnpike going to say in the future when Pittsburgh gets sick of it all and goes the way of London with prohibitive fees on cars entering Downtown? You know, if the turnpike can set up toll booths in Oakland and Hazelwood, why can't the city do the same on Fifth Ave or the Ft Pitt tunnels? What about when gas goes up to $3 or $4 a gallon? I bet they'll feel "cheated" then.