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Would you ride lightrail?

Rizzo

By Rizzo
in Grand Rapids

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Greedo Whistle-Stop

Greedo

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The challenge is balancing the use of existing lines and getting into the neighborhoods and to destinations that are important to riders. So a GR/Holland route works best if it starts in both DT's but connects Hville, Georgetown, Jenison, RiverTown, Gville, MMPark and JBZoo.

Much of that is along the existing Amtrak route, but there would need to be new urban tracks in certain areas.

Same thing goes with a Muskegon line. It's gotta hit both GVSU campuses (DT and Allendale), GHaven then run north.

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Rizzo City

Rizzo

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Well, two things. Studies and surveys have shown that a majority of Metro Detroit is in favor of a regional mass transit authority. I was at a land use conference at MSU a week ago and listened to a Republican House representative from Brighton who was trying to get support for transit as a way to curve sprawl that is occuring at the urban fringe and heavily affecting the inner suburbs and city. He didn't ellaborate at all on the state policies such as the one discussed here. (The only place you can find it is at skyscraperpage.com in city discussions entitled "The Real Dirt Behind Mass Transit in Michigan").

The other issue is the east vs west. That shouldn't even have to poke its ugly head out. This is a policy that affects the whole state, not just Metro Detroit. Under the current proposal, no other city is entitled to mass transit funding except Grand Rapids. This doesn't just include light rail or heavy rail, it includes your typical bus services as well. The Ann Arbor to Detroit rail study will be revealed this June, and if this particular legislation were to pass, that study would go to waste (again).

There hasn't even been discussion on the reasoning they are supporting the bill other than the fact "they" don't trust Detroit. What if political leaders outside of Grand Rapids were to say they don't trust Grand Rapids for light rail because they fear it is too small of a metro? I don't think that is a valid excuse. If you read into the DeRoche rhetoric, it is clear as day what he is doing, and I can't imagine any other leader in Michigan to side with him on this no matter their political orientation. This is about the future of our state, and with all due respect isn't JUST about Grand Rapids, but the wellbeing of all of our metropolitan cities.

Good point, but isn't DeRoche making this just Grand Rapids? BTW, none of this matters because the bill won't make it through, if it does it will certainly be veto'd again unless the legislation is worded differently.

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torgo Town

torgo

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Here's a web page with some good statistics about all the light rail systems in North America.

http://www.lightrail.com/LRTSystems.htm

One thing that confuses me is how much variation there is in the costs per track mile. Anywhere from $5 million to over $200 million per track mile.

I wonder if there would be any advantage to build along side an existing railroad line. The GR-Holland one seems to be a good route.

Building in an existing railroad line could be hugely beneficial when it comes to the cost of land acquisition.

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Greedo Whistle-Stop

Greedo

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What about a monorail system? All Simpsons references aside, Las Vegas has an outstanding system. It's driverless, elevated along a fixed guideway and relatively quiet. Detroit's People Mover sucks, but its not necessarily because of the technology.

Does a monorail have any appeal to GR? Or does it dork us into a corner with regards to light rail?

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Rizzo City

Rizzo

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Being elevated, it has pros and cons. More of an eyesore, but faster because you don't have to negociate with traffic. I also believe that monorails are extreamly expensive when compaired to light rail.

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Rizzo City

Rizzo

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I think in theory, if you built an elevate system you would only have to pay for land where a support pillar would be built. ? Does this work the same as the utility companies with telephone and power lines? I don't know the law on this, but if anyone has info please discuss. I think the cost between grabing a RoW for at grade rail would still be cheaper then an elevated system.

Besides, an elevated LRT is quite an eye sore.

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Michi Burg

Michi

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Good point, but isn't DeRoche making this just Grand Rapids? BTW, none of this matters because the bill won't make it through, if it does it will certainly be veto'd again unless the legislation is worded differently.

Yah DeRoche is supporting only Grand Rapids transit. I know the legislation won't get passed, so there's no need to get worked up. Even if it did, I'd be happy for Grand Rapids, but it would be a HUGE road block in every other city in Michigan. I guess the best way to look at the proposed bill is through a statewide lens and not through favortism like our politicians are making it out to be. It seems as though some don't understand the consequences of their actions. My question is why isn't anyone proposing a bill that will allow all communities equal opportunity at available federal mass transit funds? Wouldn't that make the most sense?

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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What about a monorail system? All Simpsons references aside, Las Vegas has an outstanding system. It's driverless, elevated along a fixed guideway and relatively quiet. Detroit's People Mover sucks, but its not necessarily because of the technology.

Does a monorail have any appeal to GR? Or does it dork us into a corner with regards to light rail?

The LV monorail had better be outstanding considering the cost. For "Phase 2", they're planning on extending it 2.3 miles at a cost of $400 million.

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Greedo Whistle-Stop

Greedo

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I guess I have a hard time with that arguement. I just think of Toronto and SF with the streetcar cables strewn everywhere, it's horribly unsightly. But a couple elevated track could hinder some side streets, or it could add some visual depth--get people to look up more.

Plus the view coming into the city from an elevated track would be awesome.

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GaryP Burg

GaryP

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Yah DeRoche is supporting only Grand Rapids transit. I know the legislation won't get passed, so there's no need to get worked up. Even if it did, I'd be happy for Grand Rapids, but it would be a HUGE road block in every other city in Michigan. I guess the best way to look at the proposed bill is through a statewide lens and not through favortism like our politicians are making it out to be. It seems as though some don't understand the consequences of their actions. My question is why isn't anyone proposing a bill that will allow all communities equal opportunity at available federal mass transit funds? Wouldn't that make the most sense?

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you have some inaccuracies in your post. Kooiman wrote the bill to allow every county the ability to pass levies for 25 years instead of the current 5 year limit. This is necessary because to receive federal funding a community must show that it is capable to support a system for the long term (twenty years is the requirement). DeRoche asked Kooiman to change the bill not to support GR transit, but to block transit in metro Detroit. Kooiman changed the wording in his bill to include only Kent County and the bill passed both houses and was VETOED by Granholm. The only logical reason for Kooiman to change is bill was that A) DeRoche had the votes block it and with the compromise Kooiman could still help GR or B) Kooiman changed his bill in some kind of vote swap with DeRoche to pass another one of his bills. I've read on some other boards that all this is Grand Rapids trying to hurt Detroit or something when in fact Detroit is fighting with itself. Also if the bill were to pass there would be no HUGE road block for every other city in Michigan, as every other city in Michigan would operate in the same capacity that they are currently. After metro Detroit can get its own politicians on board they will have to pass legislation allowing them the same privilege that Kent County has, which will not be an issue.

Also, the only politician who said the word favoritism was Granholm. When the bill passed both houses there weren't any issues with it. Legislators understood that Grand Rapids should not be subject to metro Detroit

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Michi Burg

Michi

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I'm not sure which boards you've found that make it sound like it's Grand Rapids' fault, but I've been pretty clear with my statements that I don't feel that way at all. I completely agree with your assessment of Kooiman and I don't have any hard feelings against him at all.

My problem is with DeRoche who not only is ruining economic progress in the region he represents, but he's also making a push to ruin other metropolitan regions (knowing the bill he supports will be vetoed by the governor which will piss everyone off). Like I said before, Metro Detroit supports mass transit just as does Grand Rapids. The only ones who don't support it are those leaders with the loudest voices who are not only negatively impacting "Metro Detroit" but "Metro Grand Rapids". In my mind, it doesn't matter than DeRoche is representing the Detroit Region...because in this case, he's representing the whole state (which is not representative of either metro region).

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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Elevated light rails would hamper on the urban experience that is if you are the type of person that likes to look up at everything. :) Frankly, I love the idea of an elevated system in the urban area.

Behold the Shonan Monorail.

I've posted this elsewhere on UrbanPlanet, but I thought that I would post it here since it is relevant to the discussion at hand considering how well it integrates into the environment.

This is the Shonan Monorail located in my sister's hometown of Kamakura Japan. It is one of my favorites. This monorail was opened in 1971, and it has operated reliabily for decades with no accidents, deaths, or other dire predictions that are attributed to these systems. 1971 Technology. It was built for relatively low cost, and as you can see provides a reliable and quite unique traveling experience that does not require huge amounts of ROW and demolition to make it possible.

photos from http://www.monorails.org

Shonan01.jpg

Shonan11.jpg

Shonan12.jpg

More here @ Monorails.org

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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Yes, I would ride a light rail. I think that a mono rail would be ok, but I think a true light rail system would work better given the historic nature of many of the neighborhoods.

While those particular photos don't show it, parts of Kamakura have been there since about 700AD. Certainly that is much more historic than anything in the USA.

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GaryP Burg

GaryP

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Not sold :) I don't know about monorails.... I'm more of a parallel track man myself.

Rizz, I think you're crazy! Those things are frickin cool!

I don't understand why the elevated rail is as expensive as it is. ROW costs are always supposed to be the biggest cost for rail projects and this way you really don't have any.

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dtown Town

dtown

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Rizz, I think you're crazy! Those things are frickin cool!

I don't understand why the elevated rail is as expensive as it is. ROW costs are always supposed to be the biggest cost for rail projects and this way you really don't have any.

wouldnt you have to buy ROW to put the columns for the monorail track?

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