Would you ride lightrail?

[Rizzo]

Nope still waiting...

[snoogit]

Anyone know what Dick DeVoss might say about mass transit systems in MI? I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything.

My uneducated guess would be that Devos would have made the same decision that Granholm did. But not for the same reason. People who are in line with Devos' way of thinking tend to think public systems such as this are wasteful government spending and don't typically approve them. Unless it benefits them politically somehow. $14m to design a urban transit system wouldn't do much politically for Devos because no one would see anything from that 14 Mill other then "ooh heres some plans" And more the likely anything done with those plans would benefit other people, like the Mayor, or a future governor.

[johnfaichney]

The most densely populated sections of Grand Rapids run from downtown through the Heritage Hill/Franklin/Southeast side area. If you start with a system through there (somehow) through to Woodland Mall and on to the airport, the success would give the system momentum to be built elsewhere.

I seem to remember hearing that this exact route was part of the GR master plan several years ago. It was intended to pass through Eastown, Gaslight, and Woodland mall before continuing to to the mall and airport. (originating somewhere near the Rapid bus station and traveling up via fulton) Although federal money may not be on hand any more for this, there are other potential sources of income. (at least to get the ball rolling in a small way, such as a single but comprehensive line) The point about momentum and planning is also spot on. Such a route would serve as an excellent laboratory, and figures about ridership and profit margins could move and shake things politically. Personally, I would be willing to spend 2 to 4 dollars each way to ride, but would most likely use it on nights when driving is not in my (or others) best interest.

I suppose where I'm going with this is that a light rail does more than link businesses and shops together during the day. Look at the development along this hypothetical line.

For starters, Heritage Hill: I can't speak for the area in a larger sense, but most of my peers (20 somethings) who are involved in local music (mostly musicians and rappers) rent in this area. A lot of small scale recording operations go on here Music Complex? If there is a party to find, and I may not know where person X lives, I simply set off down Fulton towards Heritage Hill until I find the house. I am not the only person my age who follows this procession as a weekend tradition. This is a fairly recent phenomenon, to my knowledge.

Eastown: One of the few places in Grand Rapids with a visible nightlife. Mulligans need not be mentioned. Already well developed, but crystallizing its image by becoming the "Eastown brand." Aquinas college is nearby, and most of the students there would surely appreciate and use light rail.

Gaslight Village: Being redeveloped.

Breton Village: Also being redeveloped.

Lets just hypothesize (based on this post http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...opic=11422&st=0) that whatever project X is, it involves a light rail system. And entertainment, likely involving urban music.

I think it is very likely that the issue of light rail and project X are interrelated. Taking the S curve to Market spits one out right by the Intersection, one of the few good music venues in town (the Van Andel has a less regular and less contemporary/agile attractive power). Also, the Rapid bus station is right there.

It is already a transportation center (I always seem to end up there coming or going from GR), the unbuilt head of the sole long tail of entertainment districts in Grand Rapids. Anybody looking to create an entertainment hub, especially one linked to young music talent, would surely have a vested interest in a light rail connection.

If an urban planner were to sit down at their GIS and plot out just how different densities and programs of use extend in Grand Rapids, I would imagine this site pops out as an excellent transportation hub and a good extension of a line of entertainment at the small, guerilla scale which the music industry is transitioning into.

Light rail is perfectly concomitant with the other new development in GR. As long as the money issue is taken care of somehow, I think it is inevitable.

Edit: Then again, just because something makes perfect sense doesn't mean it will happen. Quite the oppposite, usually.

[grandrollerz]

I know the bus to Allendale was pretty packed when I went to GVSU but lived downtown and it would surely be a good candidate for a rail link

-nb

-nb

I think that the GVSU bus service has had a huge influence on the ridership in general if the Rapid. I'm sure many of the people who ride it who are either living at the campuses (from outlying GR areas) or even those who live in the LMD corridor ir runs along, they all have probably never rode ridden taken public transport. The expereince has probably opened thier eyes to how easy and convenient the bus system can be.

I know for me peronsally, I didn't discover the bus system until a slight motor vehicle infraction forced me off the road for a short period.

You can still see the rail bed of the old GR to Kalamazoo interurban line. I runs parallel with US-131 next to the southbound lane until about 100th street (Middleville exit). If you look south as you cross the overpass you can still see the railcut running south. (About even with the northbound entrance ramp onto 131).

It's easy to spot before the Middleville exit when heading southbound. It's the raised two-track off to the right of the expressway. The concrete culverts that are still in place give it away.

These are fun to follow when flying out or/ into Grand Rapids. You can see they used to reach all over west michigan.

[grandrollerz]

Like this: (Railway is crudely traced in red of course)

-Redacted (Image)-

Don't mind me, this is just a dreamer's version of a light rail system.

In terms of getting people to the lakeshore and increasing tourism, I would scratch the lines going from Downtown following 96w to Muskegon and 196W To Holland and keep the single line down LMD and incorporate it into a line that would run along the melding cities of the lakeshore from Suagatuck to Muskegon. Other than GVSU, there is no need to have rail down LMD.

If the intent is to have commuter rail, then the 96W and 196W lines would serve those suburbs well. But as a starting point, I think LMD to a lakeshore line would be sweet.

[snoogit]

In terms of getting people to the lakeshore and increasing tourism, I would scratch the lines going from Downtown following 96w to Muskegon and 196W To Holland and keep the single line down LMD and incorporate it into a line that would run along the melding cities of the lakeshore from Suagatuck to Muskegon. Other than GVSU, there is no need to have rail down LMD.

If the intent is to have commuter rail, then the 96W and 196W lines would serve those suburbs well. But as a starting point, I think LMD to a lakeshore line would be sweet.

actually I just followed the main freight routes that already exist

[Michi]

I think politicians should keep in mind that successful public transportation systems are a huge economic stimulus. Could we use an economic shot in the arm here in Michigan?

http://www.detroittransit.org/ecoengine/home.htm

[commissionerpd]

actually I just followed the main freight routes that already exist

I couldn't help but to read this forum and mention that the Brits have it right. I travel internationally monthly and I have actually made it a point to stay in london on many of my return stays because of this new slick system built over their extensive rail sytem. The basics: This is a dedicated train from LHR to London that runs every 15 minutes between LHR and London- no stops until London Paddingtion. It is spotless, lined with LCD TVs in some cars, but in others you have the "quiet car" option where no music phones etc. are to be audible so that the business traveller can function without bother.

This is the nicest system I have ever seen put together, and just wanted to make you aware of it. It all comes down to the cost in this area of actually acquiring the property and on and on, but this would be a smooth way for communters to get from GR to Holland and Muskegon in a hurry!

http://www.heathrowexpress.com/

[commissionerpd]

I couldn't help but to read this forum and mention that the Brits have it right. I travel internationally monthly and I have actually made it a point to stay in london on many of my return stays because of this new slick system built over their extensive rail sytem. The basics: This is a dedicated train from LHR to London that runs every 15 minutes between LHR and London- no stops until London Paddingtion. It is spotless, lined with LCD TVs in some cars, but in others you have the "quiet car" option where no music phones etc. are to be audible so that the business traveller can function without bother.

This is the nicest system I have ever seen put together, and just wanted to make you aware of it. It all comes down to the cost in this area of actually acquiring the property and on and on, but this would be a smooth way for communters to get from GR to Holland and Muskegon in a hurry!

http://www.heathrowexpress.com/

That makes it much easier- a bit of automation and new seamless track (to handle the velocity), some stations and it isn't all that bad to stomach financially (respectively). One thing I left off out in my haste was the cost per rider- a not very negotiable 16GBP or about 29 US each way. Could you imagine Lansing in 30 minutes or less? Holland in 15? I am guessing it would be a 3-5 year project- maybe they would be ready to pay by then?

[Sunlover38]

I think it would be fabulous if we had an efficient light rail system . . I personally hate driving . .but it is a neccessary evil when you live in GR and work at the lakeshore . . sort of a reverse commute.

[Greedo]

it is a neccessary evil

I used to be a big reader in Chicago (books, magazines) because of my 30 minute commute on the Brown line. But since moving back and driving to work, which forces me watch where I'm going, I rarely pick up a book, and my magazine time is limited to the gym.

Dear ITP, state and local governments, federal officials:

I want my "me" time back, to learn about cool stuff and read amazing literature, and encourage my fellow citizens to do the same. Please get serious about rapid regional transit in West Michigan. I promise you numerous votes in upcoming elections as well as an abundance of high-fives, kickups and smiling faces on adorable children.

Your fellow patriot,

Greedo van Zanderstein

Bandito of the Universe

[snoogit]

Greedo van Zanderstein

Well that proves it you must be from Grand Rapids

[LA Dave]

You can still see parts of it in Wyoming. Beverly street, between Burton and Chicago drive roughly follows its path. There are parts of the old right of way visible between Burlingame and Byron Center Road, North of Porter. it reappears again West of Byron Center road and South of porter. In Grandville you can see the old right of way south of Chicago Drive, roughly right next to 30th street. West of Grandville, it followed the old road to holland.

There is a book around on the GR to Holland interurban.

In addition, there was an interurban to Muskegon. You can see traces of the right of way on the streets that run east of Monroe, north of Lafayette in the north end -- the lots are wider. And, you used to be able to see the piers of the bridge that crossed the Grand River in North Park. I think those were torn out years ago, though. Finally, traces used to be visible from I-96 around Marne. My dad (a tremendous train buff) could always spot the right-of-way.

In addition, there was an interurban to Muskegon. You can see traces of the right of way on the streets that run east of Monroe, north of Lafayette in the north end -- the lots are wider. And, you used to be able to see the piers of the bridge that crossed the Grand River in North Park. I think those were torn out years ago, though. Finally, traces used to be visible from I-96 around Marne. My dad (a tremendous train buff) could always spot the right-of-way.

Whoops -- make that east of Monroe, north of LEONARD -- I've been gone too long.

[AlexPKeaton]

Of course the biggest clue that there used to be a train from Grand Rapids to Muskegon is the Interurban Depot Cafe in Marne.

-nb

[snoogit]

Of course the biggest clue that there used to be a train from Grand Rapids to Muskegon is the Interurban Depot Cafe in Marne.

-nb

Excellent breakfast. Try to get out there as much as possible

and actually M-11/rememberance used to be where the rail line ran.

[LA Dave]

Excellent breakfast. Try to get out there as much as possible

and actually M-11/rememberance used to be where the rail line ran.

I didn't know that -- and never had the chance to eat at the Interurban cafe. My Dad's favorite was the Choo Choo Grill on Plainfield at Leonard. Is that still there?

[grrwymg]

I didn't know that -- and never had the chance to eat at the Interurban cafe. My Dad's favorite was the Choo Choo Grill on Plainfield at Leonard. Is that still there?

It sure is. Best burgers in town. (Good breakfasts, too!)

[AlexPKeaton]

It sure is. Best burgers in town. (Good breakfasts, too!)

I haven't had their burger so I can't compare, but for my money The Station on the cornder of Wealthy and Fuller has the best burger in town.

-nb

[eagle]

Can somebody explain what the "Right of Way" is? I've noticed little signs at some interesections (44th/Walma) with an arrow pointing somewhere that says "right of way."

And yes I'd love to ride Light rail. I agree it'd be nice to turn driving time into reading, relaxing time.

[gvsusean]

It lookslike we have one more chance to get the money from the govt.

"In Lansing last week, Representative Chris Ward, a Republican from Brighton and the House majority floor leader, met with Democratic Lieutenant Governor John Cherry for the latest negotiating session over a bill that would expand local transit taxing authority. The pending House bill, HB 5560, which is essential to any statewide progress on rapid transit, is sponsored by Kent County Republican Representative Jerry Kooiman. It would give The Rapid, the transit agency that serves Grand Rapids and five adjoining communities, the authority to ask voters whether they support levying taxes for 25 years in order to help pay for a proposed new streetcar line and make the region eligible to collect $14.4 million from the Federal Transit Administration

[Michi]

Don't blame Granholm, blame DeRoche. The worst thing to happen to Michigan since...well...ever!

Deleted! Don't post news articles on this forum. Read the very clear rules on this

[DwntwnGeo]

I hope with the developements already started downtown, along with additional ones proposed in the furture, would spur some State or Federal fundings towards this. I think it would be a good thing to bring surrounding communities into the downtown area. It could even relieve some of the "parking issues" already in the downtown area. Now we just need to alter the Midwest perspection that everyone needs to drive their own vehicle everyplace

[Rizzo]

But Repuclicans under the leadership of House Speaker Craig DeRoche, of Novi, amended Mr. Kooiman's bill so that only the Grand Rapids region could enhance its taxing authority. State Republican leaders said they did not trust Detroit's capacity to operate a rapid transit system and opposed any new tax in Southeast Michigan.

In some aspects of this you have to ask what is going wrong. Size and stature isn't the only aspect of a diserving metro, but rather a metro that is ready, willing, and has a positive track record. It appears that the SE metro is infighting. Metro Grand Rapids is united and taking its future in its own hands as any should. Atleast, that appears to be the case. Why are our Republicans solid and unified with this transit issue? Does it seem that we "get it," that we realised public transit when effective, efficient, and fast can be a viable economic investment?

I can see this issue going straight to a East V. West. A diserving metro isn't just one of size and stature, but one of preparedness and unity. Get united, show that everyone cares, include the suburanites. If you can't atleast change the hearts and minds of the people who are likely to support it with their tax money, what would be the point? It would be silly to think that a metro not united could support a system, it would fail.

[Michi]

Well, two things. Studies and surveys have shown that a majority of Metro Detroit is in favor of a regional mass transit authority. I was at a land use conference at MSU a week ago and listened to a Republican House representative from Brighton who was trying to get support for transit as a way to curve sprawl that is occuring at the urban fringe and heavily affecting the inner suburbs and city. He didn't ellaborate at all on the state policies such as the one discussed here. (The only place you can find it is at skyscraperpage.com in city discussions entitled "The Real Dirt Behind Mass Transit in Michigan").

The other issue is the east vs west. That shouldn't even have to poke its ugly head out. This is a policy that affects the whole state, not just Metro Detroit. Under the current proposal, no other city is entitled to mass transit funding except Grand Rapids. This doesn't just include light rail or heavy rail, it includes your typical bus services as well. The Ann Arbor to Detroit rail study will be revealed this June, and if this particular legislation were to pass, that study would go to waste (again).

There hasn't even been discussion on the reasoning they are supporting the bill other than the fact "they" don't trust Detroit. What if political leaders outside of Grand Rapids were to say they don't trust Grand Rapids for light rail because they fear it is too small of a metro? I don't think that is a valid excuse. If you read into the DeRoche rhetoric, it is clear as day what he is doing, and I can't imagine any other leader in Michigan to side with him on this no matter their political orientation. This is about the future of our state, and with all due respect isn't JUST about Grand Rapids, but the wellbeing of all of our metropolitan cities.

[francishsu]

Here's a web page with some good statistics about all the light rail systems in North America.

http://www.lightrail.com/LRTSystems.htm

One thing that confuses me is how much variation there is in the costs per track mile. Anywhere from $5 million to over $200 million per track mile.

I wonder if there would be any advantage to build along side an existing railroad line. The GR-Holland one seems to be a good route.