Would you ride lightrail?

[GaryP]

wouldnt you have to buy ROW to put the columns for the monorail track?

For the most part I think they'd go on property already controlled by the city, county and state. I

[GRGyp]

While those particular photos don't show it, parts of Kamakura have been there since about 700AD. Certainly that is much more historic than anything in the USA.

Given that the U.S. was built do to contributions to rail companies that ran on two rails, I think you'll find less friction putting down parallel track and finding ridership than with putting in an overhead monorail. By historic, the section of town proposed was built during the days of steam power locomotive transportation. Putting cultural snobbery aside, from a historic standpoint I agree with michaelskis and think a parallel track LTR would fit in better than a monorail for those neighborhoods.

Plus there is romantic a culture in the United States on parallel tracks that I don't think Japan shares. I think people would naturally prefer normal rail over mono in the US. Look at Detroit with the People Mover. There is just a stigmatism in this country that prefers the old rail over the mono.

Think of it this way. At one time Grand Rapids, which really hasn't been anything more than a backwater city in an urban sense, had 5 railroads running into it: the Grand Trunk, the Pere Marquette, the Lakeshore & Michigan Southern, the Michigan Central, and the Interurban (Grand Rapids & Indiana). Rail was the vital way into and out of the city from the 40's and earlier. This can be said for every American city, rail was the vital means of moving crosscountry during that time. That's a connection that still exists today through to the Gen X'ers whose grand parents road the rail when they wanted to travel crosscountry. Now that may change with the generation after the X'ers, who don't have relation that can relate that experience to them. For most of the population in the US, there still is a mental image of rail travel, and it's a romanticized view. Monorail really can't compete with that, and I think there is actually a prejudice against monrail because of it.

[monsoon]

Mobuchu and dubone, UrbanPlanet forumers in Charlotte, took some photos of the elevated portion of the light rail line being constructed in Charlotte as we speak. This is what an elevated light rail track looks like these days. As you can see, it is much more massive than the Shonan monorail.

BTW, the cost of this line is running about $50M/mile. You can see a lot more in this thread. It includes a lot of information on how it was financed, how long it is taking to build, and other ideas that may be relevant to GR.

[GRDadof3]

Nice system! Thanks for the links monsoon!

[DwntwnGeo]

I would love to see a system like this build in Grand Rapids. I think it would be awesome, but I don't think most people living in the area would agree with me

I think it would be best for the long haul of things. I would just hate to see a lot of money spent on something that would work for today, but in 10+ years we need to totally scrap the idea and go to something larger.

[DwntwnGeo]

Quote from Grand Rapids Buisness Journal (May 1st edition)

At this point, the two modes under consideration are bus rapid transit and bus streetcar, and the two corridors under consideration are the South corridor, which runs from downtown Grand Rapids to approximately U.S. 131 at 76th Street, and the eastern Grand Rapids/Kentwood corridor, which runs from downtown to the Gerald R. Ford International airport.

Varga said transit system staff and consultants now have to refine the study and come up with one corridor and one transportation choice.

Does this mean that Light Rail is not an option for Grand Rapids? Or would they now reconsider with the possibilities of federal/state funding?

I can understand that bus routes and street cars may have cheeper up front costs, but looking further into the future, I feel the advantages of a Light Rail system would be benefitial in the long run. As I mentioned earlier, I would hate to have one system only to toss it aside to build a larger one a few decades later. I don't see the Right of Way costs going down anytime soon. Maybe I am off base with this

[GRDadof3]

Quote from Grand Rapids Buisness Journal (May 1st edition)

At this point, the two modes under consideration are bus rapid transit and bus streetcar, and the two corridors under consideration are the South corridor, which runs from downtown Grand Rapids to approximately U.S. 131 at 76th Street, and the eastern Grand Rapids/Kentwood corridor, which runs from downtown to the Gerald R. Ford International airport.

Varga said transit system staff and consultants now have to refine the study and come up with one corridor and one transportation choice.

Does this mean that Light Rail is not an option for Grand Rapids? Or would they now reconsider with the possibilities of federal/state funding?

I can understand that bus routes and street cars may have cheeper up front costs, but looking further into the future, I feel the advantages of a Light Rail system would be benefitial in the long run. As I mentioned earlier, I would hate to have one system only to toss it aside to build a larger one a few decades later. I don't see the Right of Way costs going down anytime soon. Maybe I am off base with this

I'm not sure what they define as "Bus Streetcar" on that? The Federal Funding doesn't affect which option is chosen. Without Federal funding, nothing would be built. Either way, the RAPID's plan is for a fixed-guideway system, which requires obtaining right-of-ways, but usually along roadways (not like the Charlotte system in the linked thread). If the GR Metro area wants light rail, it's going to take a "champion" to push it through. Although there is a good deal of regional work going on, the support only goes so far right now. Why do you think we keep bringing it up here?

To see a video of a fixed guideway BRT system, there's one here.

[GaryP]

If the GR Metro area wants light rail, it's going to take a "champion" to push it through. Although there is a good deal of regional work going on, the support only goes so far right now. Why do you think we keep bringing it up here?

$5/ gallon gas this summer will help our chances as well. It's gonna hurt my pocketbook (which is slim as it is right now), but I'll consider it 100% worth it if light rail gets the exposure it deserves in GR.

[francishsu]

Well they pretty much wrote off LRT in the GT2 study, and I don't think the rising fuel costs are going to cause them to revisit this.

As for the term "bus streetcar", my guess is either a streetcar on electric rails, but the same size as a bus (not as wide or long as light rail cars). Or an electric bus/trolly on wheels powered by overhead wires.

[monsoon]

It could be something like this. They are often used to replace really busy bus routes.

[Greedo]

Anything with overhead wires should be out of the question. They are the most disgusting blight on an urban landscape. Fuuugly!

Toronto, San Francisco--they clutter the view and need to be repaired constantly. Think those wires are going to make it through a Michigan ice storm? Think again.

The best option is elevated LRT with a third rail, monorail or street car moving under it's own power.

[GRDadof3]

It could be something like this. They are often used to replace really busy bus routes.

I would prefer that to Bus Rapid Transit, that's for sure. Is that a picture of Portland's system?

[monsoon]

I would prefer that to Bus Rapid Transit, that's for sure. Is that a picture of Portland's system?

It is a type of vehicle used in Portland. I don't remember if that particular photo came from Portland.

Anything with overhead wires should be out of the question. They are the most disgusting blight on an urban landscape. Fuuugly!

Unless a electric transit vehicle travels completely in its own ROW and is built like a heavy rail system, you have to have overhead wires for safety reasons. There is no way that a streetlevel system like that above is going to have a 3rd rail as the danger of electrocution is just too high.

With that said, over head wires can be made to be quite attractive. Here are a few photos that I took of Charlotte's Electric Trolley. As you can see that when it is combined with an urban sidewalk and landscaping it can be quite attractive.

I didn't take these.

BTW, this is a artists rendering of what the LRT catenary will look like as it passes through the city. It's pretty good looking too.

[GRDadof3]

I personally wouldn't mind this kind of system at all. Maybe with more modern Bombardier vehicles.

I think the vintage trolley system would be great for a downtown "loop" system.

Those two rail/skyline shots are great, monsoon!

[Greedo]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything attractive about it. It takes an otherwise scenic view and gives it the hack and slash.

Elevated rail!!

[DwntwnGeo]

Greedo,

I see what you are saying with all the wires and lines overhead. On the other hand, if you have a large elevated cement/metal structure in the air wouldn't the view from street level looking up be even more blocked? In my opinion, the best solution would be to bury it all, provided money wasn't a problem

I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything attractive about it. It takes an otherwise scenic view and gives it the hack and slash.

Elevated rail!!

[GRDadof3]

Greedo,

I see what you are saying with all the wires and lines overhead. On the other hand, if you have a large elevated cement/metal structure in the air wouldn't the view from street level looking up be even more blocked? In my opinion, the best solution would be to bury it all, provided money wasn't a problem

I agree. I really don't see the difference in view blockage:

and I've got to believe that monorail (elevated rail) is much more expensive.

[GaryP]

Well they pretty much wrote off LRT in the GT2 study, and I don't think the rising fuel costs are going to cause them to revisit this.

As for the term "bus streetcar", my guess is either a streetcar on electric rails, but the same size as a bus (not as wide or long as light rail cars). Or an electric bus/trolly on wheels powered by overhead wires.

I think fuel costs are going to influence public sentiment a great deal.

[francishsu]

Elevated rail, whether it's LRT or monorail, is going to run you on the order of $100m per mile.

Any increase in public transit, whether it's BRT, electric trolley or LRT will be a good thing. But it's really an eye opener to me to read the advocates (not on this board, but on websites promoting these systems) of each type of transportation ripping on the alternatives.

[snoogit]

I think we need an LRT rally in front of city hall...

Get the city's minds in the real game, and dump BRT.

[DwntwnGeo]

I may be taking the wrong approach on this, so if I am, my apologies.

To me, it seems to build a Mass Transit system using our existing roadways (example Division Ave) would no help the city

[Greedo]

No way, a transportation structure totally trumps crazy mess of ugly wires.

Hey, while we're at it, why don't we dig up the phone and electrical wires downtown and hang them on poles. The aesthetics will be sweet!!!*

*[please note scarcasm]

[torgo]

No way, a transportation structure totally trumps crazy mess of ugly wires.

Hey, while we're at it, why don't we dig up the phone and electrical wires downtown and hang them on poles. The aesthetics will be sweet!!!*

*[please note scarcasm]

Sorry Greedo, I don't like the big concrete things either. I like the street-level trolleys/buses/whatever because it brings the focus back where it should be: the street. A big massive elevated system would create a massive barrier, like how 131 does across Bridge Street. Sure, the wires are ugly too, but an at-grade system is much more a part of the urban fabric.

[Lplan]

Elevated rail, whether it's LRT or monorail, is going to run you on the order of $100m per mile.

Any increase in public transit, whether it's BRT, electric trolley or LRT will be a good thing. But it's really an eye opener to me to read the advocates (not on this board, but on websites promoting these systems) of each type of transportation ripping on the alternatives.

I must respectfully disagree with these numbers.

There are several innovative designs of monorail, as well as PRT, that have been estimated to cost on average closer to $30M/m, and in some cases, as low as $15M/m (although that is probably bulls**t from an eager manufacturer).

I do agree that it is very interesting to see transit advocates attacking each other. It reminds me of a time when I worked with a Big Ten University's Athletic Council when they were cutting several mens' sports. Immediately the advocates for those sports started to gripe about Title IX and all those ****ing women's sports that were taking away funding, and did not seem to even realize that the larger cause of their problems was the well-funded football program, which did not receive any cuts.

My long-winded point is that transit advocates often get nowhere if they direct their ire at each other, and not at the heavy subsidies of automobile use and highways. (Of course, politically, that usually gets them nowhere, too. I feel that it's usually best to just save the anger for the punching bag and act a little more positively when dealing with the pols.)

[Greedo]

I couldn't disagree more. You end up with beautiful shots like this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

Mmmm... elevated train.