Palm trees - "Cabbage" palmetto trees - does your southern city have them? (ATTN: Atlanta/Columbia/Birmingham)

[Aporkalypse]

I had the most useless dream last night.

I dreamt that coconut and palm trees were growing in downtown Hot Springs by the cliffs because the cliffs were radiating off heat. In the dream I was like, "Huh. That's interesting. I need to report this."

I would have NEVER remembered that dream had this thread not triggered the memory again.

Coconut palms are interesting in that they can only really be grown in the Southern tip of Florida - Miami/Ft Lauderdale, Naples, Ft Myers, and the Keys. They don't do well in Tampa/St Pete or Orlando or further north. I am a big fan of coconut palms.

Hot Springs and Little Rock can have some types of palms, the ones people here are discussing - Windmills, Mediterranean Fan Palms, to a lesser degree palmettos will grow there. You see a lot of these in Dallas, which is only one degree different in annual temperatures from Little Rock and Hot Springs, but few in Arkansas. I think a lot of this has been Latin influence in Dallas. There are palms at Park Plaza Mall in Little Rock.

[krazeeboi]

(courtesy of the Columbia CVB)

[poonther]

Coconut palms are interesting in that they can only really be grown in the Southern tip of Florida - Miami/Ft Lauderdale, Naples, Ft Myers, and the Keys. They don't do well in Tampa/St Pete or Orlando or further north. I am a big fan of coconut palms.

While your info on Coconut palms is absolutely correct, micro-climates do allow them to grow a few places north of a Palm Beach County to Lee County (Ft. Myers) line. I've seen several big ones right on the Atlantic Coast in Martin (Stuart) St. Lucie (Ft. Pierce) Indian River (Vero Beach) and a few in Southern Brevard (Melbourne.) However the most northern collection of adult Coconut palms I've seen is at the tip of Pinellas County (St. Pete.) You can view many as you exit off I-275 at the Pinellas Bayway (the toll bridge.)

I have seen many Windmill Palms and European Fan Palms in Charlotte especially in the older neighborhoods around South Park, Elizabeth and Dilworth areas.

I never thought about Live Oaks growing out of zone. Nice shots folks, but those are so small compared to all of ours that grow all over town and in the wild...huge monsters they are. I bet I can see 20 of them just from my front yard. After several tropical storms in the area, a few years ago a big 100 plus year old Live Oak fell in the middle of the night. The entire neighborhood woke up and went outside at 2am thinking it was an earthquake or something.

It's also odd to see Live Oaks growing w/out Spanish Moss and Resurrection Ferns on the limbs and branches, they look naked.

[Tennesseestorm]

Oh, that reminds me. When we were in the Lancaster, SC area, which is just southeast of Charlotte, I saw a tree draped with alot of Spanish moss. I did not realize that it would grow that far north/inland. I suppose since it is not that far from the coast, the homeowners could have brought some back and placed in the trees for the warmer months? OR, will it actually survive that far northwest? Lancaster BTW is in extreme north central SC, at about 500 ft. in elevation. Almost due north of Columbia.

Oh, speaking of "puny" Southern Live Oaks... here is a recent photo of one of my teeny Live Oaks that I planted 7 months ago. It was a little twig when I planted it, so it has grown pretty well, despite a couple of issues when some new growth was eaten away and I have had some white looking mold issues.

It's also odd to see Live Oaks growing w/out Spanish Moss and Resurrection Ferns on the limbs and branches, they look naked.

[Tennesseestorm]

Wow... I did not realize that my Washingtonia palm had grown as much as it did this summer. Here are some updated photos of the same tree that you see below that I posted a few months ago.... (see attachments at the bottom... you can see how it has grown)

This is the one that will probably perish this winter if I do not protect. If is the least hardy of the Washingtonia- which it could be, it will not survive below 22

[Tennesseestorm]

Lastly, here is my Windmill palmetto. I think it will be OK, but it we have an unusually artic outbreak, if it drops below 12

[Tennesseestorm]

OK.... one more tree question.... who has "Longleaf Pines" growing naturally/wild in their area? We have some here, but they are not native to the area. I think they are only zoned to 7A- which is what we are borderlined on. When we went to Lancaster, on HWY. 52, just SE of Charlotte, I saw some of these growing along the side of the road. Here is one that I have planted in my front lawn... not native of course... this one came out of eastern North Carolina. It has grew ALOT this year. Even now it has new growth. This is one of my most favorite pines- other than the Loblolly pine, which we have about 8 of here now on the side lawn.

[poonther]

Hey Storm I wasn't bashing your Live Oaks, just stating it's odd to see them w/out resurrection ferns and Spanish moss. I love folks that grow plants out of zone. I do a lot of that myself. I'm in Tally (zone 8b) but most of the plants I've planted in my yard are for zones 9a,9b and 10a.

As far as Spanish Moss goes in the Upstate of SC and the Charlotte area, I'm not sure if what you saw occurred by someone placing the moss there or if it occurred naturally. It typically grows in zone 8 and southward and usually in the area known as the coastal plain. I always thought where it grows also had something to do w/rainfall amounts (we get over 65 inches here in Tally while CLT only gets 43 inches) and high humidity year round. Yeah CLT does get mighty humid but here in Tally and in the zone from New Orleans over to Jax and up to Charleston (the heart of the Spanish Moss zone) we stay more humid on average year round. Here's a link for Spanish Moss.

Your Washingtonians look good! Great job. When mine were that small, they got some leaf damage even here in Tally. That was a cold winter and now as adults they never seem to get damage. Yours look like they have thorns on them ??? If so then they are Robusta (Mexican Fan) and are the least cold-hardy...that's what I have. The thornless more cold hardy Filifera (California Fan) are almost impossible to find in my area. I would like to grow one of those CA fans too. Here's another link to learn the difference between the two Washingtonias.

Your Windmill palms look good too. I've got several in my yard and I've read where they are slow to moderate growing. However I've found out w/heavy feeding w/palm food and extra watering, they tend to grow rather fast. In 5 years my Windmill next to the house grew from knee-size to now where the whole head and fronds are taller than my one-story roof. Here a link about Windmills.

Finally Longleaf pines grow naturally in my area. I can see two in the neighbor's backyard out my window right now. They are very tall. This place just north of Tally and straddling the GA/FL border, Tall Timbers , states they have the largest stands of naturally occurring Longleafs left. If you look closely at this site, you'll find there's even a Longleaf message board.

Keep up the good work and out of zone growing. The long-range winter forecast for your area states that you'll have average winter temps (maybe a little warmer than average) but you'll have a drier than average winter. For my area it looks to be average temps but way above average rainfall b/c of El Nino...but who knows they always seem to get the long-range stuff wrong.

[Tennesseestorm]

LOL. I know you wasn't bashing them. I was just referring them to that, because they are still seedlings. They have to start somewhere though I suppose. Me being barely in zone 7a, I do not ever expect these trees to become monsters, especially in my lifetime. I just hope they can survive our climate. I have not seen these trees anywhere around here before, so mine are probably firsts. Our coldest average low in mid January is 25

[socaguy]

Anyone interested in Palms, (and doesnt want to go all the way to Florida) needs to check out the Bamboo Farms and Coastal Gardens in Savannah Georgia. They are growing 30-40 different palm tree species outdoors year round. Kind of like a test station for hardiness on the SE coast.

Of course, Cabbage palms are commonly planted to about the 1-20 line through the SE, as mentioned before. Columbia and Augusta has lots of them. Atlanta and points further north have a few. There are some at Taco Cabana on Piedmont in Midtown. Also some nice ones (including Washintonia) at ABG and Miami Circle.

In Anderson SC, the commonest palm planted is Trachycarpus fortunei, Windmill palm. It can take more cold than Sabal palmetto (Cabbage palm). There are tonnes of Windmill palms in Anderson for some reason. More than Ive ever seen in any city. In fact, on one street through Anderson almost every yard has a Windmill palm, cant think of the name of the road though. There are a few Cabbage palms in town, at a few car washes, but that is about it.

This is an unusual Livistonia sp. growing in Savannah.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks for that info on the palms in Georgia....

I have family that lives in Anderson.... I will have to ask my auntie if she has any windmill palms.

Yes, from what I have gathered, the windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei) is a very hardy palm, able to withstand temperatures as low as 5-10

[PortofBama]

There are plenty of palms in the Mobile & Baldwin county areas of Alabama . In Mobile there are a few 15 to 20 footers linning the streets of Springhill Ave near the monastery , Royal st, near the mall, and especialy reatsaraunts that are on the cause way. You realy cant go any where in Mobile without seeing them and there are several different kinds as well such the cabbage palm that is in front of the GM&O bldg downtown . I have seen palms that range from 8 - 20 feet and I have seen 3 or 4 different kind of palms as well

[DruidCity]

The City of Tuscaloosa recently planted a few large palmetto trees at Alberta Park, so it's nice to see palms finally gaining enough public acceptance to be used in government projects here.

You realy can't go any where in Mobile without seeing (palms)

That's true. Mobile is a very "palmy" city.

[poonther]

Hey T-Storm let us know how your palms and other sensitive plants survive this latest cold spell (12.7 to 12.9.) I see in your area that it will not even get above freezing today and lows around 10 to single digits.

Love to hear an update from the rest of you "out-of-zone" growers too after the big freeze. Early hard freezes like this can be worse on your tender plants than a late season hard freeze.

Good Luck!

[dgreco]

palmetto trees are probably one of my favorite trees.

[waccamatt]

This is a great thread. I've always loved Palm Trees and when I moved into my house in 2001 I wanted to create a tropical (ok well, sub-tropical) oasis in my backyard. Columbia is right on the fall line, which also corresponds to the border between zones 7b and 8a. Palms have a much harder time surviving in the NW suburbs of Columbia than in the SE suburbs. I live on the north side of downtown, but in a valley, which results in slightly colder temperatures on clear winter nights. The lowest temperature I've had since I planted my palms was 9 degrees with about 5 inches of snow on the ground when my palms were young. At that time I had 3 Chinese Windmill Palms (small to medium in size), 2 Pindo (Jelly) Palms (small), 4 Sago Palms (not really palms, but similar cold tolerance) and 4 Mexican Fan Palms (Washingtonia Robusta). I also have a number of Oleanders.

All of my Palms and all but one of my Oleanders are in my backyard, which faces SSW and receives morning sun. The front is very shaded by Sweetgum Trees so I haven't tried to raise Palms there. That coldest night killed my 3 small Mexican Fan Palms, but my medium-sized one survived and has done well with only some burning on the coldest nights. About 2 years ago I added a 15 foot Palmetto and 2 12 foot Mexican Fan Palms, which have done quite well down to 12 degrees so far. I had no doubts about the Palmetto because they are all over Columbia, but I was a little worried about the Mexicans. Now that they've survived 2 winters and 16 degrees the other morning, I feel confident that they will continue to flourish.

There is one very old Mexican Fan Palm in Columbia behind Midlands Shopping Center on Two Notch Road. It appears to be at least 30 years old by its 50 feet plus height, which means it has survived the coldest night ever recorded in Columbia - minus 1F in 1985.

In terms of the Palms/tropical plants in my yard I'll rate them by how well they do here:

1. Chinese Windmill - they have flourished and grown tremendously in 5 years even though they were very small when I bought them. There are 3 of them and the largest has grown from about 2 1/2 feet when I got it to about 7 feet now. They even bloom now!

2. Pindo (Jelly) Palm - this is a close 2nd. I have 2 of these and the larger one has grown from about 2 feet tall to 6 feet tall in 5 years. The leaf canopy has also grown a good deal. These bloom also, but the blooms aren't as cool as the Chinese Windmills.

3. Sabal Palm (Palmetto Tree) - this is a very close 3rd and is the South Carolina state tree. It does very well in Columbia and grows and prospers here. It gets white blooms in the summer, which are cool, but not as cool as the Chinese Windmill blooms.

4. Oleanders - I have 7 Oleanders in my yard and lost 1 other small one more because snow broke all of its limbs than because of the cold. The ones with darker colored blooms have substantial burning in the teens, but they come back nicely in the spring. The lighter pink and white-bloomed Oleanders didn't even have alot of burning at 9 degrees with snow.

5. Mexican Fan Palms - I have 3 currently, which should continue to make it through each winter with low to moderate burning. If you plant these, plant them in mid to late spring so they have time to establish themselves before winter and don't plant them if they are smaller than 3 feet. The smallest of the ones that has survived was about 2 1/2 feet when I bought it and is now about 7 feet. The other 2 were planted large and are very sturdy trees. Unfortunately, none of these have bloomed yet.

6. Sago Palms - not really palms, but they are sub-tropical and they have substantial browning during the winter. Try not to buy these too small and they should survive. New green leaves come out in the spring.

Here are some pictures:

This is one of the Pindo's covered in ice a couple of years ago:

The Palmetto and one of the Mexicans weighed down by ice a couple of years ago:

The smaller Pindo in the left background, with the older, smaller Mexican. You can see some of the Oleanders in the distance:

[Tennesseestorm]

Hey Poonther.... sorry for the delay in my replies... I had no idea anyone had posted here.

You are right- it was very cold here during that time between Dec, 8-9.... the low actually dropped to 9

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks waccamatt for posting the great photos and information! Living in Columbia- I would imagine that it would be a neat place to live for planting palms, being on the 7b-8a border. Its good to hear that palm survived the -1

[waccamatt]

Tennessee, it's amazing that a Washingtonia Robusta survived even one winter in Bristol. It may come back in the spring, though. I would wait to cut the fronds until you have given it several months after the last spring freeze to come back. I made that mistake with my 3 little ones. I think they would have come back if I hadn't cut the fronds broken by snow, but you live and learn. How big is your Robusta, if I may ask? Can you take a picture of its current state? I'm going to try and take some pictures of the largest palms in Columbia this weekend. I love growing them here because it is a challenge to place them where they will thrive and nurse them through cold weather.

[erdogs]

Thanks waccamatt for posting the great photos and information! Living in Columbia- I would imagine that it would be a neat place to live for planting palms, being on the 7b-8a border. Its good to hear that palm survived the -1

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks. When I post the full size ones, I have to copy/paste a link from photobucket- I download them there from my computer. It took me forever to figure it out too.

http://photobucket.com/

Nice pics. If you ever learn how to post full sized pics let me know. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer.

[Tennesseestorm]

Well, I did not plant it until last March, so it really did not get exposed to temperatures below 25

[waccamatt]

Well, I did not plant it until last March, so it really did not get exposed to temperatures below 25

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks. So dad was right.... he said it was pompas grass too, but I did not know if he was right or not. Oh yeah- it has done fine here. We have had it there for 12 years and it has done fine. I think we bought it at a local Lowes or Home Depot. Normally it stays green all winter, but when we have an unusually cold spell- like we had on the 8th- it browns a bit, but always gets new fresh growth in the spring. Dad usually cuts back the old at the end of winter, but it is very sharp, so last winter he did not do it, but it still looked good, as it "cleaned" itself of the brown foliage. I am assuming it is native to the southeast?

Yeah- the Robusta is small. I bought it at a local Home Depot. I have no idea why they would sell the least hardiest version of this tree around here. I understand that there is a hardier (filifera?) and an hybrid that is even hardier? I will go ahead and protect if needed and wait until March or April before I cut away. Its usually late March/early April when everything here starts to reflourish. Hopefully by then it will start regrowth. If not, I will just discard it. I was thinking of digging it up (also recommended to me) by some others and bring it inside during winters until it gets larger, which I was going to do, but then the freeze got it.

BTW - here is was a few months ago when it was flourishing.... it grew alot this past summer....

First photo was in late spring..... second photo was in early fall.....

Tennessee, that looks like Pampas Grass. It should winter fine in Bristol, though it may brown some. I usually cut mine back in the winter. Your Robusta is tiny; it will be hard to get it to survive the winters there without alot of work. Keep protecting it any time it will get below 15 or if it will be below freezing all day. Whatever you do, don't cut those fronds until they start coming back in the spring. Good luck.

[waccamatt]

The Pampas Grass is actually a native of Argentina, but it grows well in the southeast. It can become a troublesome spreader in an area with mild winters.

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that digging up and replanting would be stressful to a plant. I don't have a dog or a cat so my palm trees are my babies, lol. I find that my Robusta's take much longer in the spring to get new growth...usually May or so, and we are much warmer than Bristol. Keep us posted on how your tree makes it through the winter.