Supersonics looking for new city

[Rizzo]

I wonder if there has been market research about this topic? I also wonder if any big league sports ever speculated in the GR market?

[AlexPKeaton]

I hesitate to use "1.3 million" when describing the Grand Rapids metro area. It may be technically correct, but in reality we're not that big. Muskegon and Holland are totally distinct cities, and while they are part of the broader metropolitan area, they really aren't part of Grand Rapids like a typical metro area. Really I'd only count Kent County and portions of Ottawa County, namely Jenison.

-nb

[Rizzo]

For some reason I think we're selling ourselves short.

Look at traffic and commuting patterns.

[Picture Michigan]

I wonder if there has been market research about this topic? I also wonder if any big league sports ever speculated in the GR market?

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories.../10/story4.html

...and if you have some serious time on your hands...

http://www.ucalgary.ca/lib-old/business_pdfs/2006sports.pdf

(go to p. 81)

EDIT ... change of page number from 75 to 81

[Rizzo]

Interesting find PictureMichigan

4. Grand Rapids (1.77) — Michigan's second-largest city is unknown to the big leagues, but has made its mark in the minors, supporting farm teams avidly in hockey and baseball. Also impressive is Grand Rapids' income base, 80 percent larger than an NHL team would need.

The money is here, but is the ethusiasm?

[dbrok]

Speaking of the NHL, does anyone else find it baffling that Nashville has a team and Grand Rapids doesn't? Nashville's CMSA population is a tad larger than Grand Rapids' (1,470,571 versus 1,306,768) but this covers a much larger area (6,280 square miles versus 4,729 square miles). Not to mention Michigan is much more of a hockey hotbed than Tennessee.

(Furthermore, Nashville has an NFL team, an AFL team, and a Triple-A baseball team. Weird...)

I think Nashville has quite a few more tourist dollars to support big-time franchises. Plus it has national recognition because of the country music industry. Those Southern and West NHL franchies like Atlanta, Nashville and Phoenix never made sense to me. Do people in these cities really like hockey?

[MJLO]

I think it would be a huge novelty at first, having a major league team in Grand Rapids. However a few years after the novelty wore off if the team weren't very successful, I can see it being one of the lowest attendees in all of major league sports. I'd also say that 1.3mill is a huge stretch for population of the area, you'd have to include, like eight counties at that point. However Grand Rapids within an hours drive of Over 2million people when you factor in Kzoo and the State capitol.

[Rizzo]

Quit beating yourselves up. We all need an selfesteem evaluation. Population has proven to not be the sole motivator with access to this kind of entertainment.

[GR8scott]

Like I said earlier, the only sports I can see here is hockey and possible basketball but they are both highly unlikly considering

-GR is a distant 2nd city in the state

-unlike other 2nd cities, were are a close proximity to Detroit as well as Chicago,

-both have historic sports teams and large fan base areas

Think about this, IF GR got a team in any pro sport, who would be the fans, who would buy tickets, jerseys, ect. IF a hockey team were here, it would probably draw just from W MI maybe a little N Indiana, but all those diehard Wings fans are going to hate GR and there wont be any support in Traverse City or east of lansing, so it will end up being a small area to draw fans from. The same goes for bball with the pistons and there wont be any Indiana fans here. Football you have a lot of Lions, Bears, and packers fans in Mi and the Colts arent far away either. Baseball, theres no chance your going to draw fans away from the historic Tigers, sox or cubs fans.

sorry to always be pessimistic but some ppl here are dreaming, unless there talking about 30 years from now and planning on a lot of changes I just can't see it. We could however improve what we have like the arena, the rampage get their act together and the AFL takes off and gets more coverage, we land a NBDL team or a better farm leage takes off, the griffins and the UHL or what ever leauge gets better, and of course having a AAA baseball team here, also sports like major league laccross and socer are taking off, I would love to see a lacross team

[Rizzo]

A loyal base is one thing, but a solid middle class base is another.

I think were now Des Moines league, kind of feels like it.

[GR8scott]

A loyal base is one thing, but a solid middle class base is another.

I think were now Des Moines league, kind of feels like it.

? are you saying Des Moines is in the same position as us? Didnt they just build a 16k seat arena too

[Rizzo]

^Feels like it.. WE are very similar, especially in size. Hell I would even say that Des Moines is in a class above.

[MJLO]

Grand Rapids is in a much better position than DesMoines. Within a Two Hour Radius you can find about 20million people. Within an hour about 3million. However I think someone hit the point about Market saturation with Chicago and Detroit being so close.

[Rizzo]

Chicago, Detroit have AFL, no saturation?

What about cities with more then one team, saturated?

[GR8scott]

^Feels like it.. WE are very similar, especially in size. Hell I would even say that Des Moines is in a class above.

no I agree they are very simular cities, Des Moines IS in a better position than GR bc it isnt the 2nd city, it is the capital, it gets a lot more national attention and recognition and it wouldnt have to compete with Detroit, Chicago and even Indiana for fans, it would have the whole state of iowa as well as omaha and lincoln too if omaha doesnt gget a team first

[MJLO]

all this may be true, but Desmoines, has a metro pop of less than 400k the state of Iowa has only about 3million people in it, spread out over a good size area. I can agree about national recognition. But I don't think major league venues look for renown so much as profitability. Metro Desmoines has much less people than even Kent county. When you talk about saturation for teams like AFL or UHL they require a much smaller fan base, than Major league teams. Ask yourself, Does Des Moines posess the population base to support such a venue?

[Rizzo]

I'll sway another way until a study is consistant on saying Grand Rapids can not support a major league team. I using Google to get a consistant answer, seems like I am.

[Rizzo]

We live in a free market system. If Grand Rapids hasn't already been looked at or eye'd and investment hasn't come this way then I would speculate Grand Rapids probably won't ever get a local team.

Grand Rapids must be one of thoes rare exceptions. On paper we can support anything you throw at us, but it appears there is this market mishap. With saturation and larger cities some 160 miles away, Grand Rapids dosen't have a market to fill.

Grand Rapids will excel in other areas, just not this one.

[Picture Michigan]

Grand Rapids must be one of thoes rare exceptions. On paper we can support anything you throw at us, but it appears there is this market mishap. With saturation and larger cities some 160 miles away, Grand Rapids dosen't have a market to fill.

Grand Rapids will excel in other areas, just not this one.

EXACTLY!

That was the point I was making earlier about Dan DeVos and NHL. He has the clout, and cripes, he could probably just pull out a check book and pay for a team. He even has civic pride. But, he is very fiscally responsible. He's not going to invest in something that will be a money vacuum.

West Michigan has a work ethic that implies (generally speaking) risk can be taken when a load of dept is not carried. This is a good thing in one area, not so attractive in others.

[GR8scott]

^right on, and bottom line; if the supersonics are thinking of leaving seattle because they dont like key arena then there F-ing chance they would even CONSIDER GR, and unless there is tremendus growth of our population and expendable income and the right demos as well as growth in the prosports leagues there wont be a team here

[Rizzo]

Besides, who the heck would even take kind to a Grand Rapids team anyway? Anyone remember the Rampage game on NBC last year? I remember the commentator remarking about how little Grand Rapids was... Oh and the icing on the cake, the commentator that refered Grand Rapids as Maybury when Grand Rapids hosted the AFL Championship. If this is the kind of crap Grand Rapids would recieve from the outside at large then forget it. It breakes my heart I remember saying something to the effect of "Screw off...."

[Paris Texas]

I hate to say it, but your comparing two arenas to cities that are what, 9, and 15 times the size of GR? plus the Palace and United Center are #1 and #2 in size in the NBA!

And actually a look at TV markets:

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/news2001/...s1thursday.html

If GR became an NBA city, it wouldn't even have the smallest TV market. (Granted, it would be the second smallest)

But GR would also have the smallest arena, even if it expanded to 16K:

http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Arenas.html

I think GR would have to build a new arena, something in the 18-20K range in capacity. I can't see that happening until VAA is at least 20-30 years old. So about 10-20 years, unless those crazy population projections of doubling growth happen

You're absolutely right, but I guess what I was thinking was that if we have those 2 within such close proximity, would we be able to support one right here? I'd like to think people could go to games regularly as a leisure activity, is that true now? For me, it's an exceptional event to go to a pro sports event.

[Rizzo]

Last season I went to three Griffins games... I'm not even a fan of hockey, especially AHL, but to see thoes folks blow the hell out of eachother is nice entertainment. I like going to the Van, because its great all the time. I've been there quite a bit and have yet to be let down...

[snoogit]

Why couldn't a Grand Rapids team draw fans from Wisconsin?

[Rizzo]

Lake Michigan.