RBC Center

[Jones_]

Please no NBA-talking about a league in decline. I don't think the NBA will be expanding but rather contracting in the coming decades. Smaller market teams better look out.

True the second division team will be in Cary but a bonafide MLS stadium is about three times the size of SAS park....CASL is expanding so fast maybe, just maybe a case could be made for expanding elsewhere in the event MLS came here....I believe that is the long term goal, to get an MLS team here.

[Subway Scoundrel]

You mean MLS like Major League Soccer? That would be awesome IMO as Raleigh has one of the largest youth soccer leagues in the nation in CASL. Also I believe a soccer stadium would not overwhelm our geographically smallish downtown like an NFL stadium would. I bet a lot of people here think this is second rate but I think its a great reality based option.

Yea, a MSL team will be based in Cary. I just hope they don't call it the "Cary xxxx" I know the people of Cary want Cary in the name, but I would suggest the "Triangle Titans".

MSL has a long way to go and major league soccer also has a checkered past in the US, but you can tell what they are setting up....a soccer league like the Premiership in the UK and European countries. The triangle team will be a Division 2 team.

Once the league becomes more stable, I hope it works like in the UK. Like the UK, there would be several divisions and each team builds it own following. A team can make the next division when it comes in the first 2 places of its division. if your team comes in the last 2 places, it gets relegated down to the division below it. So there is constant yearly movement from Division to Division. It creates a sense of competitiveness

Now that is a long ways away and make not work in American sports, but imagine if the Durham Bulls did so well, they would get to compete in the major league for a year or two because they were winning.

[Sabaidee]

Just to clarify on Charlotte's Uptown Arena, the citizens of Charlotte did not entirely paid for it. The majority of the financing is through the hotel/motel tax, and another $100 millions from Wachovia and Bank of America as a loan, plus the city is selling off assets to help pay towards the arena, which was the old Colisuem and old Convention Center and a few other pacels. The old Colisuem was auctioned off around $23 millions and the old Convention Center was sold for $15 millions to a jointed entity of Wachovia and Bank of America known as Arena Holding LLC, which then sold it to the developer Ghazi for the new EpiCentre. So in reality the price the citizens of Charlotte are going to pay is the debt service from the interest free loan from Wachovia and Bank of America and what old properties owned by the city. Those old properties were paid by taxpayers decardes ago.

[ncwebguy]

I think US soccer should try to mimic the European model of relegation. MLS would be the "premier" league, with MSL (Major Soccer Leagues) division 1 and 2 being lower rungs of the ladder. Since the league owns all MLS teams, there is no worries that an owner's team would lose value by dropping a league. The downside is that teams based in larger cities would lose fan support if they finished so low. i.e. who would watch a Knicks or Bulls game if they had to go to the NBDL after having a down year?

Also, major league teams expect major league (read taxpayer-funded) stadiums, and minor league teams expect less. Major sports leagues here all have some form of salary cap. This allows smaller market teams a chance to compete, but that system runs counter to the "play well or move down a rung" mentality. Soccer's US fan base is small enough that such an experiment might pay off...

It is good that we are getting a "middle league" team, but I would rather they had a regional name like Triangle NC instead of the Cary Cul De Sacs. A nickname like "Tri North" being a local equivalent of "Man U" or something, though "the sacs" has its own appeal.

If the team "outgrows" SAS soccer park, a new stadium could go up somewhere between Hammond Road and South Saunders. There is a lot of land there just inside the beltline (easy access to the highway) and not that far from downtown. It would take a little walk, or a tram, but it wouldn't be that far. Or, if it could fit, they could put this on the block due west of the new Convention Center. There already is all kinds of parking nearby, and it will be cleared out (except for under McDowell access to the CC).

The TTA stop wouldn't be that far from this area either. So the train can take NC State students, Hurricanes fans, and fair goers out to the fair/Carter-Finley/RBC complex for those events, and into downtown for "Suntrust/Meeker Field" soccer matches, concerts, festivals, alive after five, etc.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

"Suntrust/Meeker Field" soccer matches, concerts, festivals, alive after five, etc.

[wjarrettc]

Hello guys. I don't usually join up on a new forum and wade into a discussion but I picked up this thread through an RSS search and thought I'd could add some details about soccer in the Triangle.

First of all, a little background on professional soccer in the United States. There are two main professional soccer entities: Major League Soccer (MLS) and United Soccer Leagues (USL). Most people associate MLS with "pro" soccer and USL with "minor" league although this isn't an entirely true picture.

MLS is a single-entity structure in which all the players have contracts with the leagues are divided up amongst the 12 teams. USL on the other hand is setup more like a traditional american pro sport or like a European soccer league where players have contracts with individual teams. The USL is made up of many division such as First and Second Divisions, the Professional Development League (or PDL, an amateur league in which the Raleigh Elite play), and even a women's league, the W-League.

Because of the separate ownership and the single-entity status, there is no real way for teams to move between MLS and USL through promotion and relegation, which is a wonderful system used in Europe to allow teams that are outperforming their league to move up, and teams that are underperforming to move down a division. Because of TV markets and disparity in city sizes and soccer popularity, I don't see promotion/relegation working anytime in the foreseeable future in the USA.

Although many folks consider USL a minor league, there are many USL first division teams that routinely beat MLS teams in the US Open Cup tournament (a soccer tournament similar to the NCAA basketball tournament that encompasses teams from multiple leagues...the Raleigh Elite is even eligible to qualify for this tournament). As a big soccer fan, I'll admit that MLS is probably better, but there is not a huge gap in the talent level when you move from MLS to USL First Division...kind of like AAA baseball to the majors.

The new team in Cary at SAS Soccer Park is in the USL First Division. Presently, the owners of this team have no intention to bring an MLS team to the Triangle area. The only way I see that happening is if another ownership group would step forward with big bucks and a guarantee that either SAS Soccer Park would be expanded or a new stadium built. There are presently at least a half a dozen cities further down the MLS expansion path than the Triangle so I wouldn't antcipate MLS here in the next 10 years at a minimum.

Speaking of stadium expansion, my understanding is that the original site plans for SAS Soccer Park actually called for two stadiums to be built. A 20,000 seat main stadium and a 7,000 second stadium. The secondary stadium is the one that exists on the site today. The land allocated for the 20,000 seat stadium is still undeveloped as of today. This could become interesting as pro soccer grows here. In Rochester, the same ownership group that owns the Cary franchise built their team from nothing to drawing an average of over 12,000 fans a game. They even got a new 15,000 seat stadium built to get them out of their present baseball park / soccer combo stadium.

I also understand that town of Cary is looking into adding a second exit from SAS Soccer Park to alleviate traffic difficulties which will be imperative if the team really takes off. Getting out of SAS on a big game night (like the DC United exhibition last year or the NCAA College Cup this year) can be a real nightmare. The land for SAS Soccer Park extends south to Cary Towne Blvd so that's a viable option for a second exit.

Finally, as far as the name goes. I happen to be on the committee that Triangle Professional Soccer has asked to judge the "Name the Team" contest entries. We should know in a couple of months what the team will be called but I can assure you that the management is strongly opinionated about using an "inclusive, regional" name for the team but Cary will somehow be incorporated into the brand image. That's all I can really say at the moment (as I don't know much more than that).

If you guys are interested in soccer in the Triangle, you might enjoy my blog over at http://trisoccerfan.blogspot.com

Regards,

Jarrett Campbell

Founder, Triangle Soccer Fanatics

Owner, TriSoccerFan Blog

[jumboman]

so it sounds like any hope of a soccer stadium downtown won't happen and NBA is out of the question since we already have the RBC and we won't get a NBA team anyway. so that leaves baseball, which means minor league baseball.

solution: kick the carolina mudcats out of five county stadium since its way far out in the middle of nowhere, build a downtown minor league stadium like greensboro's, i dont know where- probably somewhere in southwest downtown. now you have to worry about stealing the durham bulls attendance, so create a rivalry (raleigh vs. durham, new vs. old, big vs. little, whatever) between the two and build a solid fanbase in both cities and create an atmosphere little college basketball does in this area when the two play. Go raleigh!

[Raleighmark]

Unfortunately, you can

[Transplant]

Unfortunately, you can

[urbanesq]

^^baseball won't happen here, either.

I'm afraid the best chance of getting an arena downtown was with the RBC center, which was a major lost opportunity.

[monsoon]

Look at the most developed urban cores in the United States and most likely there is no arena or if there is its in a marginalized area. SF has no stadium downtown, NYC has no stadium in Manhattan (Yankees Stadium is in the Bronx), Boston's arena (Fleet Center or whatever they are calling it now) is in one of the most unhappening areas of Boston. I say arenas are not the answer to developing a downtown.

There is Madison Square Garden right in Manhattan.

However I tend to agree that arenas and stadiums in urban areas tend to destroy the area instead of building it up. They create huge areas of dead space in cities because most of the time, day after day, they are closed because they have become single use venues.

[pdxheel]

I completely disagree. A significant number of stadiums have contributed to the revitalization of the DT area ther are in (Seattle, Denver and San Diego just to name a few). While the arena/stadium may be in use only when games/concerts are going on, many restaurants, bars, and housing are often located close by.

[krazeeboi]

Baseball and football stadiums tend to be single-use venues, but basketball arenas typically host a variety of events throughout the year--sporting events, concerts, conventions, and other types of entertainment (eg, circuses, touring events).

[CanesFan98]

I could see a baseball here later on down the road. It would be a perfect fit to be honest. Not anytime in the future though I am talking after like 15 to 20 years. Right now I have no idea why this is even a topic, the RBC center is still very new, and it is a great facility. The ACC could come here if they wanted to, but we all know it is just politcal BS.

[NcSc74]

I say hold off on things such as that and concentrate on urban infill projects. By 2010 the city may be nipping at 400,000 and I really want to challenge some other cities in the country with similar populations with larger taller skylines..

[pack-man]

Maybe an arena is a missed oppurtunity in DT, however, DT does need a major draw like an arena would be. Right now, the biggest draw is Performing Arts center. I think with the success of AA5 and the Moore Square concert series, Raleigh should really consider a DT concert venue that is permanent and works well with the current events. Not a Walnut Creek type venue ampitheater, but more a large street area that can handle 20000 people. I think this would be a huge draw.

[Eastwestrob]

Maybe an arena is a missed oppurtunity in DT, however, DT does need a major draw like an arena would be. Right now, the biggest draw is Performing Arts center. I think with the success of AA5 and the Moore Square concert series, Raleigh should really consider a DT concert venue that is permanent and works well with the current events. Not a Walnut Creek type venue ampitheater, but more a large street area that can handle 20000 people. I think this would be a huge draw.

We lost our venue area with the Fayetteville St. Mall...But I am glad to see it go.All the grassy area below the archdale would make for a great concert venue but I really don't consider that the "core" and I don't know if the state would allow that.

[thewhister]

I remember a discussion when the Convention Center was still under design review. The block on the west side where the service drive is being located, there was talk of using that green space as a festival venue. That would be temporary location until the Convention Center is ready to expand.

[Justin6882]

We lost our venue area with the Fayetteville St. Mall...But I am glad to see it go.All the grassy area below the archdale would make for a great concert venue but I really don't consider that the "core" and I don't know if the state would allow that.

We can still block off the street - doesn't Plensa's City Square have a stage at one end for this purpose?

[ncwebguy]

Fayetville Street will be blocked off for concerts, parades, etc. I hope the stage part of the Plensa Plaza project helps get it passed by City Council. The light canopy would be a pretty cool if it could synch up with music!

In the short term, Moore Square does well, but if the crowds get bigger than a couple of the Downtown Raleigh Alive shows, they will have to move somewhere else. I don't think there is an alive after five this year, but Downtown Alive is having a free concert every other Saturday through the summer! There would probably be too much echo off the buildings near the Archdale to General Assembly field. And it seems like the state doesn't want anyone to have a good time there.

Long term, a temporary band shell can be put on the corner that used to hold the Chevrolet dealership across from the new CC.

Fayetville Street will be blocked off for concerts, parades, etc. I hope the stage part of the Plensa Plaza project helps get it passed by City Council. The light canopy would be a pretty cool if it could synch up with music!

In the short term, Moore Square does well, but if the crowds get bigger than a couple of the Downtown Raleigh Alive shows, they will have to move somewhere else. I don't think there is an alive after five this year, but Downtown Alive is having a free concert every other Saturday through the summer! There would probably be too much echo off the buildings near the Archdale to General Assembly field. And it seems like the state doesn't want anyone to have a good time there.

Long term, a temporary band shell can be put on the corner that used to hold the Chevrolet dealership across from the new CC.

[dombalis]

Actually, per the NandO, Alive after Five will be moving to either Tucker and Johnson, between Glenwood and West. I'm really glad to hear we're gonna be having it still. I always liked their musical acts a little better than downtown live. Anyway, i'm pretty sure it's Johnson, near Bogart's and HI-5

[jfmecca]

I remember a discussion when the Convention Center was still under design review. The block on the west side where the service drive is being located, there was talk of using that green space as a festival venue. That would be temporary location until the Convention Center is ready to expand.

I've heard that talked about as recently as January, so I believe that's still part of the plan.

[JDC]

I still say yes, Raleigh, or any city for that matter, should have an arena downtown (instead of outside the urban core). I went to my first 'Canes game the other night and although there was plenty of parking, leaving the complex after the game took about 15 minutes. If the RBC Center were downtown, among the likes of restaurants, bars, etc., people might walk the streets after the game instead of scrambling to their cars with 5 minutes left in the 3rd period to beat the rush. People would be exiting whatever parking apparatus there was at varied times, and local businesses would have a reason to stay open later than they might already.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I still say yes, Raleigh, or any city for that matter, should have an arena downtown (instead of outside the urban core). I went to my first 'Canes game the other night and although there was plenty of parking, leaving the complex after the game took about 15 minutes. If the RBC Center were downtown, among the likes of restaurants, bars, etc., people might walk the streets after the game instead of scrambling to their cars with 5 minutes left in the 3rd period to beat the rush. People would be exiting whatever parking apparatus there was at varied times, and local businesses would have a reason to stay open later than they might already.

I totally agree!!!

[dmccall]

I still say yes, Raleigh, or any city for that matter, should have an arena downtown (instead of outside the urban core). I went to my first 'Canes game the other night and although there was plenty of parking, leaving the complex after the game took about 15 minutes. If the RBC Center were downtown, among the likes of restaurants, bars, etc., people might walk the streets after the game instead of scrambling to their cars with 5 minutes left in the 3rd period to beat the rush. People would be exiting whatever parking apparatus there was at varied times, and local businesses would have a reason to stay open later than they might already.

That happens in some cities while it absolutely does not in others. It's certainly not a guarantee worth spending >$250million on today (unless you have that burning a hole in your pocket). When the RBC Center has outlived it's financial viability, THEN this thread will be important.