RBC Center

[Raleighsfinest]

That happens in some cities while it absolutely does not in others. It's certainly not a guarantee worth spending >$250million on today (unless you have that burning a hole in your pocket). When the RBC Center has outlived it's financial viability, THEN this thread will be important.

I disagree.

[jlblaes]

That happens in some cities while it absolutely does not in others. It's certainly not a guarantee worth spending >$250million on today (unless you have that burning a hole in your pocket). When the RBC Center has outlived it's financial viability, THEN this thread will be important.

It would have been great to have the arena built DT instead of at the fairgrounds but at the time it was being planned and constructed, this was not an option. The arena was originally supposed to be primarily for NC State and they fittingly wanted it in west Raleigh near the Football stadium. Then the Canes skate in and they piggyback off of NC State. The arena gets redesigned and becomes more multipurpose in nature.

Don't for a minute think that another arena would have gotten funded just for the Canes or whomever DT. Fetzer, Coble, and the WCTPA were freaking out at all of the money just going to redesign the arena. The Canes wouldn't have come here unless a financialy favorable arena deal was possible. I would think that we would all agree that we are better off with the RBC at the farigrounds then a smaller NC State basketball arena and no Canes.

I think it would be pretty dumb to sepnd 300 or 350 million for a DT arena at this point. That much scratch can build a lot of schools, roads, or parks. This isn't simcity.

JB

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

That happens in some cities while it absolutely does not in others. It's certainly not a guarantee worth spending >$250million on today (unless you have that burning a hole in your pocket). When the RBC Center has outlived it's financial viability, THEN this thread will be important.

All threads are important!

[pack-man]

i love sim city

[RaleighInvestor]

Putting the RBC center in the middle of a west Raleigh cow pasture was one of the worst things that the City of Raleigh has ever agreed to do. Anytime you have 20,000+ people coming to a single area, it is never a bad thing for that area's economy. In the right location, it could have really driven downtown Raleigh.

[dmccall]

What are your thoughts on Buffalo's HSBC arena. I haven't been there, but was just looking at it on Google Earth. It is "downtown", however the isolation created by two elevated highways seems to hardly lend itself to being a downtown business incubator. This location looks like the equivalent of placing a new arena in Raleigh just south of MLK Blvd (here's an example)

Link to Buffalo on Google Maps

To me it looks like they are getting no positives to their downtown with this location and none of the positives the RBC Center's location offers. This afternoon is a perfect example of suburban positives. People will spend the entire day partying in the parking lot with no worry of theft or being approached by the homeless, as they would in downtown.

[bullcity76]

I think RBC Arena will follow the fate of the Charlotte Coliseum area. I just hope it isn't developed in the same fashion (which is the current state) as that area. I'm hoping the proposed mixed-use dev across the street will be just that. Shuttle connections that loop through different sites (say with free parking in the restauraunt/bar/retail areas) would be beneficial. There are still hundreds of acres on Edwards Mill that haven't been touched.

Eventually, like most of you say, the stadium will become obsolete for competitive reasons and we'll be looking to locate it downtown. By then the RBC site could be sold to a developer for redevelopment adjacent to Carter-Finley and the thousands of workers and residents of "Fairgrounds West".

[Cary NC]

Where would NC State play basketball. In Downtown Raleigh? Was not the site picked because of its proximity to Carter Finley, trying to create a sports complex for NC State Sports. Just wondering. Maybe the Hurricanes in ten years will build their own arena downtown.

[Subway Scoundrel]

Where would NC State play basketball. In Downtown Raleigh? Was not the site picked because of its proximity to Carter Finley, trying to create a sports complex for NC State Sports. Just wondering. Maybe the Hurricanes in ten years will build their own arena downtown.

The Hurricanes have near the same investment in the RBC as NCSU. (I think it is $50M/NCSU and $40M/Gale Force). I think a new arena could be built but will be in 25-30 years. They wanted a new arena for NCSU and had the land which made sense at the time. I think we should develop smart around the arena and not make it a Brier Creek. Build dense.

We will have to watch for the next revenue producer for owners or developers are which what I have seen and read, inlcudes other development opportunuties like an owner coming in with the city and taking control of a very large bad area and do an entire remake while making money on the arena and the other developments. I think the new Nationals stadium has this. Also gambling like in Pittsburgh if the Penguins get a new arena.

Once it was boxes but will the next thing be? WHat ever it will be will be 25 years at least away in Raleigh.

[Jones_]

Putting the RBC center in the middle of a west Raleigh cow pasture was one of the worst things that the City of Raleigh has ever agreed to do. Anytime you have 20,000+ people coming to a single area, it is never a bad thing for that area's economy. In the right location, it could have really driven downtown Raleigh.

"Right Location" being the key.....20,000 people going to a single location completely kills the livability of the immediate area.

[pdxheel]

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of examples where an arena or stadium have improved the livability of an area, even dense urban areas.

[sax184]

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of examples where an arena or stadium have improved the livability of an area, even dense urban areas.

Putting an arena in downtown Raleigh without investments in higher-capacity transit make it essentially a non-starter. Putting the RBC out in a field was indeed one of the dumbest decisions made in Raleigh for many years.

[pdxheel]

Putting an arena in downtown Raleigh without investments in higher-capacity transit make it essentially a non-starter.

Agreed

[pack-man]

cheapest option at the time. not thought through logically at all. $ made the decision, city was afraid to step up. everyone was scared they would lose the hurricanes. one big disaster. if the canes win the cup, in 5 years you will start hearing the talk about moving to a bigger arena in the middle of DT where the action will be.

[Jones_]

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of examples where an arena or stadium have improved the livability of an area, even dense urban areas.

Then tell what your idea of livability is then. I suppose Shokoe Bottom will be better with the Braves stadium moved in (Richmond)? The RBC center between South Wilmington and South Saunders...fine...between say Boylan Heights and Fayetteville Street...well....I personally would not want to have to live 30 floors up just to hear myself think. A brownstone (or victorian cottage) on the edge of strip of historic storefronts is my perfect lifestyle. All this talk of Atlanta skylines takes things a few steps farther than what any city needs to be. I don't know that I see a middle ground between grand Atlanta skylines and true livability but would love to hear ideas on concepts. Raleigh could be a candidate.

[RaleighLover]

A downtown stadium would be built before an arena. As far as pro teams go the only legit shot of getting another one we have seems to be baseball.

[Jerseyman4]

The ESA (now the RBC) should of been in downtown Raleigh and i remember growing up hearing the talks of trying to bring it in downtown Raleigh. I believe one of the prime reasons for its location now is because if they insisted building in downtown and not someplace else, they would of lost the canes for the other cities trying to win over the Hartford Whalers (columbus, OH was the other prime canadate). Now that is in the western extents of Raleigh in the middle of three freeways and the NC State Fairgrounds, outsiders really view Raleigh as the sticks. Traffic going in and out of the ESA in the years ive went to cane games were not too terribly bad. It was worse in Greensboro in my opinion when the big games were played since you only had Coliseum Blvd, Patterson St and High Point Road/Lee St to leave the stadium.

[jfmecca]

What are your thoughts on Buffalo's HSBC arena. I haven't been there, but was just looking at it on Google Earth. It is "downtown", however the isolation created by two elevated highways seems to hardly lend itself to being a downtown business incubator. This location looks like the equivalent of placing a new arena in Raleigh just south of MLK Blvd (here's an example)

Link to Buffalo on Google Maps

To me it looks like they are getting no positives to their downtown with this location and none of the positives the RBC Center's location offers. This afternoon is a perfect example of suburban positives. People will spend the entire day partying in the parking lot with no worry of theft or being approached by the homeless, as they would in downtown.

HSBC is probably a bad example. When it was built, the area around it was pegged for redevelopment that really never materilaized. The Cobblestone District was supposed to be much like the City Market area here. Never happened. Also, Adelphia had planned a large mutli-use complex on the lot directly north of HSBC, but that disappeared with the Rigas scandal. Add to all that the fact that Buffalo's downtown is fairly empty.

Still, there are a few things that HSBC has going for it. There is plenty of parking nearby, and if you park between the arena and the downtown core, you can easily walk to a few spots downtown for dinner before or after the game. Theres also a light rail - free of charge downtown - that runs past the arena and up Main Street, making what's still open there fairly accessible.

The highway really isn't much of a hinderance. It's pretty much a giant overpass at that point downtown.

[monsoon]

"Right Location" being the key.....20,000 people going to a single location completely kills the livability of the immediate area.

Indeed. Sports arenas create huge dead areas in cities because they sit closed and unused during most hours of the days and during most days of the year. One only has to look down the highway at Charlotte to see the new NBA arena is void of any street activity unless there is an event there. Ironically a number of businesses have complained about a loss of business instead of a gain, because all of the free downtown parking disappeared when the Bobcats arena opened. And interestingly enough, many events are choosing to go elsewhere due to the expense of going into that arena and the fact that it is much smaller (seating wise) than its predecessor. Now that the Charlotte Coliseum has been closed the largest indoor venue for events in NC is now in Greensboro.

Though you will get others on this forum that will disagree, the $300M spent to build the Bobcats Arena, against the voters wishs I might add, has not added anything to the livability of downtown Charlote and has created many negatives. First in the lost opportunity of that $300M to build something else the public would enjoy more, and second in the lost opportunity to use the land for something more condusive to city living than a big empty monumental building. It was a pretty stupid move if you ask me because the same claims were made a decade and a half earlier with the building of the Panthers BofA stadium in downtown. They had to level acres and acres of downtown land for that, and even though there were promises the stadium would revive that part of downtown and create a big entertainment district, none of it ever happened. Its a big dead area in downtown Charlotte.

Raleigh would be much better served to avoid falling into the trap of "gotta have a sports arena in downtown" as it won't do anything to revive the city.

[Transplant]

Raleigh would be much better served to avoid falling into the trap of "gotta have a sports arena in downtown" as it won't do anything to revive the city.

You are saying Raleigh (and every city) is correct in building sports complexs by major highways. Would you also say that mass transit to such a site is a waste? After all, the transit station would only be used minimally.

How much does a downtown type arena built with restaurants and shops around it contribute to the tax rolls?

[monsoon]

You are saying Raleigh (and every city) is correct in building sports complexs by major highways. Would you also say that mass transit to such a site is a waste? After all, the transit station would only be used minimally.

How much does a downtown type arena built with restaurants and shops around it contribute to the tax rolls?

Keep in mind that only a heavy rail system can effectively serve the huge burst of crowds that come out of an arena. With the kind of transit that we are building and planning for here in NC, there isn't the capacity of a transit line to serve an arena where 20,000 people are going to exit at the same time. If people have to wait more than 15 minutes to get on a train they just are not going to do it. They will drive instead. The cars on the light rail line in Charlotte have a maximum capacity of around 240 people and cars have a response time of 7 minutes maximum. The math is pretty simple to see that it isn't going to handle many people at a major event.

So yes I would say that a transit stop specifically built for an arena is pretty much a waste. Huge sporting arenas need to be near major highways and away from city cores.

In the case of the Charlotte Bobcats Arena, the tax proceeds are $0 as the city owns it.

[dmccall]

That's actually a great point. The BOA Stadium sits in the corner of downtown and has had very little entertainment growth around it. For that matter, the Memorial Stadium never got any good retail or entertainment development around it, either. Now, I will say that the BOA stadium gets used only about 10 times a year, so a basketball arena and it's 150-175 events per year is more likely to generate demand for restaurants and bars. However your point about these places being massive throng-or-none traffic generators is a good one.

Think about this. Did anyone think it would be a good idea to eat at Damon's last night (before Game 7 against Buffalo)? We weren't going to the game and figured it would be slammed with game traffic, so we planned to go to Hi5 to watch the game. Then my wife suprised me with tix, and we didn't go to Damon's because it was going to be slammed. If an arena were built this Summer between Capital Blvd and Glenwood South, would you gamble on eating at places like 518 before the game? I probably never would, just like Atlanta people never bother to go to Underground. Get me there, and get me out when the game is over.

[Transplant]

In the case of the Charlotte Bobcats Arena, the tax proceeds are $0 as the city owns it.

As a direct result of the new arena, as anything been built around it? Shops, offices, etc? Maybe a bigger question would be is it worth a city to build a money-losing arena and give it to a team to use for free?

I agree that building an open air football stadium downtown is a waste, but I fell a hockey/basketball arena can work. If there are places to eat near by, people will stick around to drink and eat post game. (The restaraunts around the Durham Bulls stadium are packed pre and post game.) Regarding Damons: I went to there pre Game 2, and it was crowded, but I did get a seat. The problem with Damons is that its a bit of a walk from the arena.

You are right that there is a hole around the arena on off days, and during events, but this could be addressed by some Offices around them.

[thewhister]

Where would NC State play basketball. In Downtown Raleigh? Was not the site picked because of its proximity to Carter Finley, trying to create a sports complex for NC State Sports. Just wondering. Maybe the Hurricanes in ten years will build their own arena downtown.

Yep. Read this site and how the financing is broken down.

[krazeeboi]

As a direct result of the new arena, as anything been built around it? Shops, offices, etc? Maybe a bigger question would be is it worth a city to build a money-losing arena and give it to a team to use for free?

Courtside, the 17-story condo tower, was recently completed and it's only a stone's throw away from the arena. There is street-level retail built into the ground floor of the arena, but I'm not sure if the spots have been filled as of yet.