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SAV

Commuter rail vs. Mass Transit

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SAV    0

Quik Question.

1. Do you think commuter rail would be better than extending MARTA into the nieghboring counties?

(even though they are allergic to MARTA) :sick:

I know in Cobb, quite a fiew people are always "commuting" to a MARTA station.

Shouldn't commuter rail be for trips to and from places like Athens, Carrolton (West GA. Univ. bordering Alabama), Macon, and places like North North GA.

2. How often will the commuter trains run?

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Newnan    1

I think they should create communter rail going into suburban counties that connects to marta lines

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monsoon    0

Heavy rail is very expensive to build. If they are to expand Marta, I think it ought to be to add more access within Atlanta itself and not bring commuters into Atlanta. For example:

  • Build a 3rd and maybe a 4th Marta line inside of urban Atlanta. Use it to cross connect the existing lines and make it possible to build more density within the city. Most successful transit systems use the principle of triangles instead of converging the lines down to a single point as is done in ATL

  • Along with this build a new Union Station style of transit center that connects to one or more of the heavy rail lines.

  • Build radial style commuter rail to the far flung suburbs allowing them to be served by Park & Ride lots and have them converge into this multimodal station.

  • If they actually build the LRT based beltline, connect it to the above as much as possible.

  • The Union Station ought to support future high speed rail to the SEHSR and current Amtrak operations.

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Newnan_Eric    0

Heavy rail is very expensive to build. If they are to expand Marta, I think it ought to be to add more access within Atlanta itself and not bring commuters into Atlanta. For example:
  • Build a 3rd and maybe a 4th Marta line inside of urban Atlanta. Use it to cross connect the existing lines and make it possible to build more density within the city. Most successful transit systems use the principle of triangles instead of converging the lines down to a single point as is done in ATL

  • Along with this build a new Union Station style of transit center that connects to one or more of the heavy rail lines.

  • Build radial style commuter rail to the far flung suburbs allowing them to be served by Park & Ride lots and have them converge into this multimodal station.

  • If they actually build the LRT based beltline, connect it to the above as much as possible.

  • The Union Station ought to support future high speed rail to the SEHSR and current Amtrak operations.

Actually, the Citizens for Progressive Transit (a pro-transit activist group) has proposed a lot of your suggestions. Mainly they have taken a lot of the current transit ideas already floated by various agencies and integrated them with modifications on one map:

hires.gif

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monsoon    0

Ahh, that is great. I've never seen this site, but there are proven ways to build effective transit and they seem to be on the mark with it. ATL would be simply transformed if they actually did build this system. My guess is that it would become one of the premier cites of the 21st century USA.

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SAV    0

Ahh, that is great. I've never seen this site, but there are proven ways to build effective transit and they seem to be on the mark with it. ATL would be simply transformed if they actually did build this system. My guess is that it would become one of the premier cites of the 21st century USA.

You mean 22nd century. :whistling:

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teshadoh    0

MARTA's intown expansion isn't happening, too expensive & too disruptive. Not to mention the system design's primary purpose is to act as a commuter rail.

I think there is a pretty good chance, with other projects being implemented that the actual MARTA system itself is built out. What is being planned are numerous BRT & light rail lines that will feed into MARTA, including the terminus locations. Also commuter rail lines will assist what MARTA itself was designed to provide - easy access for automobile drivers to get to a rail station. The intown area will supplemant MARTA with 3+ transit projects.

That said, once Atlanta does reach a size that can support urban transit - perhaps we will see more MARTA lines. Paricularly once the BRT & light rail lines reach capacity in the suburbs & the edge cities develop into dense nodes, MARTA transit could be brought back.

But MARTA was designed as a futuristic transit system for what was then a relatively small booming metro area. I think MARTA was probably ahead of it's time for Atlanta. Though - MARTA is one of the primary reasons for the growth & densification of Midtown & the Lenox edge city. Also MARTA has helped sustain downtown through some rough decades & is the foundation for all the planned transit projects.

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Newnan_Eric    0

Newnan_Eric....thank you so much for that map. Where there is vision, there is hope. I love the Cumberland to Dunwoody to Doraville line.

I'm glad that y'all like the map. On their website they call it "Visualize World-Class Transit." While the complete scope of it may seem far-fetched, most of the individual pieces have been proposed by some person or agency. This is just the first time anyone has overlayed them all on one map.

A couple of things that strike me are:

- The Armour Yard Station, they have a whole page of their website dedicated to this. It would make for a much more seamless connection between MARTA, the Beltline, AMTRAK, and proposed Commuter Rail lines - they ALL cross at that one point. There currently isn't much there as far as development goes, so build the station(s) and re-develop around it - a la Lindbergh Center.

- They modified some of the routes and endpoints of the proposed commuter lines. In CfPT's plan they capture more towns that have viable old-fashioned downtowns. (Like Newnan and LaGrange in my neck of the woods.)

I think if this map got more circulation, more people might buy in to the concept of viable transit options for the metro area. Of course, I also feel that transit oriented development needs to go hand-in-hand. People need to be able to walk to and from these points.

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teshadoh    0

The Cumberland - Perimeter - Doraville line actually stems from an actual planned line that has been campaigned by the Cumberland & Perimeter business districts. Not sure what the funding status is for it, but it is a potential line.

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catlike    0

Even doing just the easiest projects (commuter rail and streetcars) would be a massive improvement. That map has some fantastic ideas. Here's hoping they come to fruition! :thumbsup:

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monsoon    0

But MARTA was designed as a futuristic transit system for what was then a relatively small booming metro area. I think MARTA was probably ahead of it's time for Atlanta. Though - MARTA is one of the primary reasons for the growth & densification of Midtown & the Lenox edge city. Also MARTA has helped sustain downtown through some rough decades & is the foundation for all the planned transit projects.

I realize they had the benefit of more federal funding, but the DC Metro was conceived and pretty much built around the same time as MARTA, but they continued to build out the system as I described. The Metro has transformed 1970s DC into a very desirable city which, at one point, suffered from the very same problems that plague modern day Atlanta. It's amazing the similarities between the two cities. If you look at a map of the modern day Metro and Marc system it resembles the map above by a great deal.

I don't understand why politicians don't bother to look at the success stories of transit.

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Lady Celeste    58

I don't understand why politicians don't bother to look at the success stories of transit.

Because they are too busy having wet dreams about 23-25 lane expressways. :lol:

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Newnan    1

.

That said, once Atlanta does reach a size that can support urban transit - perhaps we will see more MARTA lines. Paricularly once the BRT & light rail lines reach capacity in the suburbs & the edge cities develop into dense nodes, MARTA transit could be brought back.

What size is that?

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Andrea    0

Even doing just the easiest projects (commuter rail and streetcars) would be a massive improvement.

Yep. And it really wouldn't take that much more for the Atlanta metro area to achieve most of the things shown on that map. MARTA already has most of those lines in place, and many of the extensions could easily be placed in the median of I-75 or I-575. The Beltline and the Peachtree Streetcar (perhaps with additions) should be coming to fruition shortly. The commuter lines look like they basically run along existing tracks.

What's lacking, in my opinion, is simply the *will* to do it.

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teshadoh    0

I realize they had the benefit of more federal funding, but the DC Metro was conceived and pretty much built around the same time as MARTA, but they continued to build out the system as I described. The Metro has transformed 1970s DC into a very desirable city which, at one point, suffered from the very same problems that plague modern day Atlanta. It's amazing the similarities between the two cities. If you look at a map of the modern day Metro and Marc system it resembles the map above by a great deal.

I don't understand why politicians don't bother to look at the success stories of transit.

And Washington, not only the city but the sprawling metro in general was & still is phenomenly more dense than Atlanta. If I did have it my way - I would of course extend MARTA lines into suburban areas. But MARTA's best market is attracting lower dense car oriented areas that require a parking deck. MARTA is essentially a commuter rail system except for Midtown. Now - as for expanding MARTA in the city, that won't happen because Downtown & Midtown will still remain the only high dense urban areas for decades to come. The inner-ring neighborhoods that surround the city core aren't going anywhere. High dense corridors will develop, but those don't require as massive of an infrastructure as heavy rail - BRT, light rail or streetcars would work.

Newnan - I don't know what size I think Atlanta could overwhelmingly support a subway system, but it should at least require a larger core of at least 10k people per square mile in the city. Now, there are only select pockets with that density in Midtown, east of downtown & south & west of downtown. Otherwise Atlanta's density isn't that much greater than most middle sized cities such as Louisville or Tampa. No one would build a subway in those cities, so why Atlanta? It's a large metro, but it has a very small urban core.

Similar cities like Atlanta that are doing it right - Dallas, Houston, San Diego, Phoenix & Denver.

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ironchapman    1

Newnan - I don't know what size I think Atlanta could overwhelmingly support a subway system, but it should at least require a larger core of at least 10k people per square mile in the city. Now, there are only select pockets with that density in Midtown, east of downtown & south & west of downtown. Otherwise Atlanta's density isn't that much greater than most middle sized cities such as Louisville or Tampa. No one would build a subway in those cities, so why Atlanta? It's a large metro, but it has a very small urban core.

Similar cities like Atlanta that are doing it right - Dallas, Houston, San Diego, Phoenix & Denver.

So, we are talking 1,320,000 in the city (sq. mi. x 10k per sq. mi.). I wonder when that will happen.

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Hybrid0NE    2

So, we are talking 1,320,000 in the city (sq. mi. x 10k per sq. mi.). I wonder when that will happen.

As soon as everyone that lives in neighborhoods like Ansley, Grant Park, Peachtree Hills, Edgewood and etc . decide to give up their single family lots and let Novare, Cousins & Co. rebuild their communities with lower midrise and highrise condo and apartment buildings. It would be for the greater good and success of Atlanta as an urban mecca worthy of being in the ranks of Manhattan, San Fran. etc. So teshadoh should volunteer his property as a sort of ribbon cutting event. :D

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Andrea    0

As soon as everyone that lives in neighborhoods like Ansley, Grant Park, Peachtree Hills, Edgewood and etc . decide to give up their single family lots and let Novare, Cousins & Co. rebuild their communities with lower midrise and highrise condo and apartment buildings. It would be for the greater good and success of Atlanta as an urban mecca worthy of being in the ranks of Manhattan, San Fran. etc. So teshadoh should volunteer his property as a sort of ribbon cutting event. :D

Now who gets a time-out?

:lol:

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UrbanAtl    0

All rail systems take time to grow. MARTA has had to over come some extra barriers to growth, mostly racial politics. But like all systems it will grow. There is no way that it is built out. A hundred years from now MARTA will cover the area. The NY Subway, London Tube & Paris Metro have all taken a century to build and perfect. MARTA is well under way even if it is a late bloomer.

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Andrea    0

And Washington, not only the city but the sprawling metro in general was & still is phenomenly more dense than Atlanta.

Interestingly enough the overall density in the Washington metro area and the Atlanta metro area are about the same

Chart

Inside the Beltway, however, there are many areas with substantially greater density than Atlanta ITP.

Density in DC

Density in Atlanta

I think a lot of the success of the DC metro simply has to do with the fact that it takes you more places you are likely to go.

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teshadoh    0

As soon as everyone that lives in neighborhoods like Ansley, Grant Park, Peachtree Hills, Edgewood and etc . decide to give up their single family lots and let Novare, Cousins & Co. rebuild their communities with lower midrise and highrise condo and apartment buildings. It would be for the greater good and success of Atlanta as an urban mecca worthy of being in the ranks of Manhattan, San Fran. etc. So teshadoh should volunteer his property as a sort of ribbon cutting event. :D

In fact I have had my back yard for sale! But b/c it requires a great deal of research & city beaucracy 'know how' it hasn't sold. But it's incredible what developers will offer for a tiny .1 acre lot.

Despite all the single family neighborhoods that won't be budging, there is still plenty of room on the corridors & isolated post-industrial areas to push for a higher density. MARTA will need to retrofit in order to accomodate the population though, consider how useless the King Center station is designed. Otherwise it's streetcar, lightrail, BRT & plain old bus service that will be moving intowners around, not so much the core MARTA system.

And I believe MARTA recognizes this, which is why the E & W line extension proposals include BRT.

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mahanakorn    0

Thanks for the map.

Atlanta is fortunate to already have the expensive piece of the puzzle on the table.

Early candidate for upgrade to MARTA subway is the intown portion of the Emory/Atlantic Station/5 Points line, where there is already considerable density and a number of traffic generators. Imagine stations at Aquarium, Coke HQ, Tech, 14th, AS and Brookwood, before rejoining the existing line at Armour.

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