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Project X comparison to other developments?

francishsu

By francishsu,
in Grand Rapids

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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So what other similar developments across America are in the same league of a multi-billion dollar project that's expected to create or has created on the order of 10,000 jobs, taking up on the balpark of 30 acres of land?

Here's one:

Goldman Sachs new headquarters in Lower Manhattan

Projected cost: $2 billion

Jobs to be created: 4000 by 2019

43-story office tower

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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Johns Hopkins Medicine $1.2 billion expansion, including two new 12 story towers, in Baltimore. To be built out in the next 7 - 10 years.

medmap.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...6lr%3D%26sa%3DG

(way down the page)

Here's another article on it:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:f1adC...us&ct=clnk&cd=7

(far right column)

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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I am sure this has been put out there somewhere on UP or in another media outlet, but what is the total projected cost and number of jobs created through the total development of the new Medical Hill (or whatever is is being called)?

The Spectrum 3 tower addition - 700,000 sf, $200 million, 2000 jobs

Lemmen Holton Cancer Pavilion - $200 million, don't know sf (maybe 300,000?) or jobs created

Helen Devos Children's Hospital - 400,000 sf, $190 million, don't know jobs created

Van Andel Institute Phase II - 280,000 sf, $150 million, 400 new researchers + support staff

So about 1.68 million square feet and $740 million investment, not including the MSU Med School.

This is all info that was on their press releases.

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tringr Whistle-Stop

tringr

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For one billion $$$ you can:

Turn coal into clean burning hydrogen fuel

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/2196682.html

Build a high-tech commercial and residential hub in Amman, Jordan,

http://www.natashatynes.com/mental_mayhem/...s_one_bill.html

Build a 200 unit condo in NYC for a little bit more; taking up a whole city block.

http://www.looksmartinsurance.com/p/articl...52/ai_n15781272

With twice as much money and land, East Hartford Conn. is doing a mixed use project.

http://skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-204190.html

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn. The centerpiece would be a new stadium for the New Jersey Nets (soon to be the Brooklyn Nets). It was the only thing I could find that had "10,000 permanent jobs" and "billion" in the cost.

Atlantic Yards/Brooklyn Nets Arena sounds like a great comparison. According to Wikipedia:

Brooklyn Nets Arena is a proposed US$3.5 billion sports arena, business and residential complex to be built partly on a platform over the Metropolitan Transportation Authority-owned Atlantic Yards at Atlantic Avenue in the New York City borough of Brooklyn. The site is intended to serve as a new home for the New Jersey Nets, currently based at Continental Airlines Arena in East Rutherford, New Jersey. The MTA site is 8.3 acres (34,000 m
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Occam Unincorporated Area

Occam

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Atlantic Yards/Brooklyn Nets Arena sounds like a great comparison. According to Wikipedia:

Another interesting comparison. $2 billion, 6000-8000 new jobs. Although it sounds like they have up to 20 times the acreage to play around with?

I don't know exactly how the cost of construction in NY compares to the cost of construction in Grand Rapids, but I'd guess that 2 billion in GR is equal to 4 billion in NY.

Anyone have better info on this??

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tringr Whistle-Stop

tringr

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I don't know exactly how the cost of construction in NY compares to the cost of construction in Grand Rapids, but I'd guess that 2 billion in GR is equal to 4 billion in NY.

Anyone have better info on this??

using a "salary" calculator comparing GR to Brookly and then Manhattan" 100 grand in GR means you need to earn 124k in Brooklyn and 236k in Manhattan to have a similar standard of living.

maybe not the best way of calculating, but can't be too far off.

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GaryP Burg

GaryP

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I don't know exactly how the cost of construction in NY compares to the cost of construction in Grand Rapids, but I'd guess that 2 billion in GR is equal to 4 billion in NY.

Anyone have better info on this??

Manhattan has its own building code and very few people know the rules there, so design is super expensive. Also all the projects are union controlled (read: mob) and full of corruption. I don't have any direct comparison numbers, but I bet you

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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If it sounds too good to be true......

A friend of mine that used to live in Syracuse just sent me this. There are some interesting similarities here...hmmmm

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/da...es/060221us.asp

Wow, that project (Destiny USA) makes Project X look like a street corner strip mall in terms of the numbers being thrown out. 800 acres, $20 billion, promise of generating over 200k jobs.

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Rizzo City

Rizzo

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How in gods name is this ok with some folks over there? That development is so so grossly over board. So much money, so poorly planned, and oh so disgusting. how in the hell would they expect that many hotel rooms, 80,000 infact to be filled or atleast come to that amount? Is there a market for this type of development to warrant so much land use?

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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How in gods name is this ok with some folks over there? That development is so so grossly over board. So much money, so poorly planned, and oh so disgusting. how in the hell would they expect that many hotel rooms, 80,000 infact to be filled or atleast come to that amount? Is there a market for this type of development to warrant so much land use?

It's pretty crazy.. a job growth of 200k+ that they're throwing out would almost triple the city's population. And their median income is much lower than GR. As far as the people there.. I'd think alot of them would view the the developers as white knights. How many people are going to protest $20 billion invested in their city.

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GRGyp Whistle-Stop

GRGyp

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It's pretty crazy.. a job growth of 200k+ that they're throwing out would almost triple the city's population. And their median income is much lower than GR. As far as the people there.. I'd think alot of them would view the the developers as white knights. How many people are going to protest $20 billion invested in their city.

I didn't see the timeline for all these jobs to enter the area, but if it was a steep curved time line I would be questioning the effects of that much growth and the effect it would have on property values.

Too much growth, too soon and it can become a "Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it" type of situation.

If they are promising that much growth in a 5 to 10 year projection, I would have some serious fears of property values skyrocketing and driving the city to ruin. Think about it, a much lower median income than GR with 200,000+ employees (plus families) moving into the area for new jobs. 3x growth in city popualtion would drive property values through the roof. You could end up with a situation where the median income families would be unable to afford housing in or near the city they work in.

Even if someone could promise that, and be correct in their projects when they did it, I'm not so sure I would want it.

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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I didn't see the timeline for all these jobs to enter the area, but if it was a steep curved time line I would be questioning the effects of that much growth and the effect it would have on property values.

Too much growth, too soon and it can become a "Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it" type of situation.

[...]

I agree with your analysis and I'm sure there are a number of people who are also very skeptical, as they should be. But I bet that quite a few people only see the dollars and the promise of a brighter future and more jobs for their city.

I also read that they're going to get a 30 year property tax exemption for the expansion of the Carousel Mall, the first part of the project. What a tax break!

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AlexPKeaton Burg

AlexPKeaton

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I agree about raising land values too much. I read an interesting opinion piece in the New York Times recently criticizing the mortgage interest exemption, and one of the criticisms is that it increases land values. Higher land values aren't really that great for most people, because when you sell your house you typically have to buy a new house. So although you get a lot of money when you sell, you can't really cash in. Ridiculously high land values really just hurt new home buyers and only help realtors get bigger commissions. Unless you're actually buying land as an investment hoping to flip it, increasing land values are probably overrated.

But, the other thing I'd worry about is that if this development is so huge and flops, it could tarnish our city's reputation for years to come. Think cold fusion. People will hear our name and stay away. I don't think that will happen, but it's a concern anway.

-nb

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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I agree about raising land values too much. I read an interesting opinion piece in the New York Times recently criticizing the mortgage interest exemption, and one of the criticisms is that it increases land values. Higher land values aren't really that great for most people, because when you sell your house you typically have to buy a new house. So although you get a lot of money when you sell, you can't really cash in. Ridiculously high land values really just hurt new home buyers and only help realtors get bigger commissions. Unless you're actually buying land as an investment hoping to flip it, increasing land values are probably overrated.

But, the other thing I'd worry about is that if this development is so huge and flops, it could tarnish our city's reputation for years to come. Think cold fusion. People will hear our name and stay away. I don't think that will happen, but it's a concern anway.

-nb

I agree AlexPKeaton. The DestinyUSA flopping mess will probably haunt Syracuse for a decade or more. But I don't think the Riverfront project is the same developer or development.

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francishsu Hamlet

francishsu

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Xanadu Meadowlands (stolen from another thread)

http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf030804.htm

$1.3 billion mixed use (primarily entertainment )

104 acre site

projected 20000 permanent jobs

Roppongi Hills in Tokyo

http://www.roppongihills.com/en/facilities/

$4 billion mixed use

27 acre site

opened in 2003, couldn't find information on job creatoin

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joeDowntown City

joeDowntown

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I hope that it is not like Roppongi Hills. I have been there and it is very fortress like. It kind of shuts out the rest of the Tokyo instead of being a part of the city... I hope that whatever they build blends in well with the rest of downtown (ok, but taller ;).

Joe

Roppongi Hills in Tokyo

http://www.roppongihills.com/en/facilities/

$4 billion mixed use

27 acre site

opened in 2003, couldn't find information on job creatoin

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tringr Whistle-Stop

tringr

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I hope that it is not like Roppongi Hills. I have been there and it is very fortress like. It kind of shuts out the rest of the Tokyo instead of being a part of the city... I hope that whatever they build blends in well with the rest of downtown (ok, but taller ;).

Joe

Just like the City center shutout the rest of downtown. No street presence. Just a concrete fortress. Perfect for the po-po's.

We'll have a clue if they start ripping up streets and redesigning how the roads run. That will either end up in an awe-inspiring setting or be like the project you mentioned above.

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