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charlotte_bon_vivant

"I'm anti-gay, but I'm not a homophobe...."

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I'm not sure if we're allowed to discuss this. Mods, please close the thread if I'm out of line. The reason I strated this thread is because I am perplexed by a current trend. Basically, it's people who disagree with homosexuality yet are offended when called homphobic or intolerant. Am I wrong or is that the very definition of intolerant? I was recently accused of forcing the "intolerant" label on someone who says she is anti-gay, but not anti-gay people. Wouldn't a person who says, "I like you, except for the fact that you're black" be racist? And why is okay to be anti-gay yet offensive to also be homophobic? I don't understand...

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monsoon    0

There are still a lot of people in this country who hate Gays. However most are not willing to admit it anymore so they hide behind excuses such as the one you describe.

The bottom line is that bigotry is bigotry no matter how it is rationalized.

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dpbaker    1

Bunk. The "anti" prefix can be often too stroing, or misused. If somebody disagrees with something does that mean they are "anti"? So if I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, am I anti-gay? Does that make me "homophobic"? No. If I was afraid of gay people, maybe I'd be homophobic. Disagreeing with something doesn't automatically make you an anti- or a -phobe.

Joe likes soccer, you don't. Does that make you a Joe-o-phobe, or an Anti-Joe? No. You might prefer a different sport. I have a good friend that happens to be gay, admittedly by choice. I don't agree with that lifestyle selection. But that is his business. I am neither afraid of him, nor offended by his choice. I do not attempt to coerce him, oppress him, or otherwise get him to change that, though he knows how I stand on the issue. If I said, "I absolutely hate gays, will never have a gay friend, and they are all wrong" that would be intolerant or perhaps discriminatory. So am I having my cake and eating it too? Am I hating the sin but loving the sinner? The two are not necessarily related.

If you were to label me, would that not then make you the intolerant one? Be cautious of your generalizations and definitions. I do see your point though, and it would certainly be applicable to many, not all.

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hood    1

I'd have to agree with dpbaker. I have no problem admitting that I'm not exactly fond of the gay lifestyle, but when it comes down to it I don't care. There are gay people in my family that I treat as a normal family member and talk to them, I know there are plenty of gay people on this website. It's just that I'm not gonna have a gay person as a close freind or anything, it's not my crowd, but in the same manner that I don't want to hang out with various other groups (gothics, as an example).

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satalac    492

i disagree with being gay. but that's because i'm straight. i don't have any problems with people who are gay. i have many gay friends. if i agreed with being gay, i would be gay. so i wouldn't say that someone who disagrees with a lifestyle is anti-whatever. they just have a viewpoint that is different from others. they way i see it, if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt anybody, then by all means do it! i just wish people were more accepting of each other.

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Cotuit    0

So if I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, am I anti-gay?

There's a difference between not wanting to have or witness gay sex and condemning someone's entire "lifestyle" (which for most of us extends beyond the bedroom I'll have you know), and using that condemnation as an excuse to oppress someone.

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monsoon    0

Bunk. The "anti" prefix can be often too stroing, or misused. If somebody disagrees with something does that mean they are "anti"? So if I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, am I anti-gay? Does that make me "homophobic"? No. If I was afraid of gay people, maybe I'd be homophobic. Disagreeing with something doesn't automatically make you an anti- or a -phobe.

Joe likes soccer, you don't. Does that make you a Joe-o-phobe, or an Anti-Joe? No. You might prefer a different sport. I have a good friend that happens to be gay, admittedly by choice. I don't agree with that lifestyle selection. But that is his business. I am neither afraid of him, nor offended by his choice. I do not attempt to coerce him, oppress him, or otherwise get him to change that, though he knows how I stand on the issue. If I said, "I absolutely hate gays, will never have a gay friend, and they are all wrong" that would be intolerant or perhaps discriminatory. So am I having my cake and eating it too? Am I hating the sin but loving the sinner? The two are not necessarily related.

If you were to label me, would that not then make you the intolerant one? Be cautious of your generalizations and definitions. I do see your point though, and it would certainly be applicable to many, not all.

The question here was not the gay lifestyle, whatever that is, but instead hatred towards Gays. I have found that arguments against Gays, that include the term "gay lifestyle" are a disingenous way to get out of accepting responsibility for one's prejudice. Gays don't choose to be Gay just like you didn't choose to be straight. It's not a soccer game. I don't really care that you choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence which agrees with this, but is a classic response of people that are bigoted against Gays. I have heard it all before as it is an old argument of bigots, just like the hating the sin but loving the sinner song. Am I labeling you a bigot? No, because unlike being Gay, bigotry is a choice.

If you were really a friend of that individual you would quit passing self-rightous judgements on him.

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waccamatt    8

First of all, being gay is not something to be agreed with or not agreed with. You agree or disagree with opinions, not with who people are. You can agree or disagree with gay marriage, but not with the fact that someone is who they are. Do you agree or disagree with someone's race or ethnicity? It's the same thing.

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dpbaker    1

The question here was not the gay lifestyle, whatever that is, but instead hatred towards Gays. I have found that arguments against Gays, that include the term "gay lifestyle" are a disingenous way to get out of accepting responsibility for one's prejudice. Gays don't choose to be Gay just like you didn't choose to be straight. It's not a soccer game. I don't really care that you choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence which agrees with this, but is a classic response of people that are bigoted against Gays. I have heard it all before as it is an old argument of bigots, just like the hating the sin but loving the sinner song. Am I labeling you a bigot? No, because unlike being Gay, bigotry is a choice.

If you were really a friend of that individual you would quit passing self-rightous judgements on him.

Metro, so you call me a bigot, then you say you're not calling me a bigot. I choose to ignore nothing, please feel free to site your evidence, and I will entertain it. I work with geneticists that are not jumping to conclusions that you seem to accept as fact. Additionally, you are calling my friend a liar indirectly. He CHOSE to be gay. He wasn't always gay, and in fact has gone back and forth. Currently, he is with one of his own sex. So now you'll try to tell me he's not really gay. I, like him, do not claim that all people are gay by choice, nor do we claim that all people are born this way. Look at different cultures throughout history; some have experienced periods of heightened homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality. So, were they just born that way, then kinda born that way, then not born that way?

Here's my stance: if you're born that way, then you're born that way!! I'm not faulting anybody for that. If you choose one lifestyle over another and it doesn't directly affect my safety or well-being, then more power to you. Gays do not threaten me, never have. Never cared. I love my friend dearly, and I'm not afraid to say that. I do not think of him as my "gay" friend either. He is my friend that happens to be gay, by his own choice. Maybe he's stupid though and doesn't really realize that he was born that way, beacuse after all, we don't have any freedom of choice as human beings.

Self-righteous judgements? Who the h*** do you think you are anyway? You are the one now passing judgement my friend, perhaps even a, eh hem, bigot.

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Cotuit    0

Could you choose to be gay? Your 'friend' has chosen to be with men, he has not chosen to be attracted to them. We don't choose what turns us on.

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dpbaker    1

Could you choose to be gay? Your 'friend' has chosen to be with men, he has not chosen to be attracted to them. We don't choose what turns us on.

Choice is a very complex issue as we are exceptionally complex creatures. I don't claim to have the answers that you seek. Do you have them? How do you know we don't choose what turns us on? Experience. Why is it that I used to not like Asian women and only liked white girls? Now I can't stand the majority of white girls and adore Asian women! Why? Experience. Was I born that way? To not like, then to like? No. Experience. I think this could also be applicable in this argument as well (of course, not in all cases!).

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Why does anyone care with whom another is intimate with? How exactly does it affect you personally unless you're in bed with them? And what exactly is a "gay lifesytle"? Is it one where you eat in four star Zagat restaurants, wear stylish clothes, and have fabulous furniture? If so, my brother and his partner fall far short. They have a hideous apartment, dress like slobs and eat at Burger King regularly. They do share a bedroom, but that's not a lifestyle, that's an orientation.

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Cotuit    0

Why is it that I used to not like Asian women and only liked white girls? Now I can't stand the majority of white girls and adore Asian women! Why?

I don't know, sounds like you're shallow.

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krazeeboi    115

Metro, how do you define "hatred"? I think that's a pretty strong word to use. I don't think of "prejudice" and "hatred" as the same thing.

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Snowguy716    0

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen, but sadly, it is somewhat necessary to discuss these issues from time to time.

DPBaker... so what, you're a Geneticist... that makes you the all-knowing figure in the room about whether homosexuality is a choice? I'm sorry, I find your argument bull. "I'm a geneticist and I have a friend who CHOSE to be gay." You're one geneticist, and you have ONE friend.

And yes, I get really sick of people who say "I don't agree with homosexuality, but I don't hate gay people." I agree that it is possible, but I still think that given the chance, you'd be much more likely to oppress gay people, especially if the government condoned such behavior.

Our society is just moving through all the categories. Kind of a "well, we got our right to hate that group taken away, so let's focus ona different one". First it was women, then blacks, now it's gays. When we finally throw that bigotry out the window, we'll probably hate fat people. I can already see it coming. The scary thing is, is that if we hate fat people... we'll finally be bigoted against the majority.

Did you ever sit down and maybe think "Gee, maybe I am wrong. Maybe gay people really are normal people just like me. Hell, they might even be some-group-o-phobic."

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monsoon    0

Metro, how do you define "hatred"? I think that's a pretty strong word to use. I don't think of "prejudice" and "hatred" as the same thing.

I find the dictionary to be an adequate source of a definition. From Websters:

a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING

Note the anger part. Predudice & Bigotry usually are the result of someone's unreasonable expectations for their view of the world not being met. Expectations are premeditated resentments. Once married with Ignorance (which plently has been demonstrate here) their children are fear and anger. Hence the hate part.

As a Gay man I have experienced much of this hatred from some people. Thankfully societiy frowns upon this form of bigotry these days unlike say 25 years ago and it's no longer necessary to hide the fact that I am Gay out of fear of getting hurt or killed by bigots. Today, as demonstrated by the remarks in this thread, we get the same hatred and prejudice, but they are hidden behind more clever terms such as "lifesyle", "protecting the family", "protecting the sanctity of marriage", etc etc. It's still quite common, but you don't have to worry as much now about getting hit in the head with a 2x4.

Am I being intolerant as accused above. Yes, but my intolerance is against people who would do me harm either physically or through cleaverly worded phrases. The method doesn't matter its the bigotry behind it that does, and I don't really have time for it. Tolerance does not mean you have to accept people that would like to see you wiped off the face of the earth even though claims are being made. "Oh I have friends that are Gay". Yeah right, we've heard it all before.

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hood    1

I think this thread is getting a little ridiculous. First, monsoon, it is more than possible to tolerate (and not hate or even dislike) gays but not want to be their best freinds. I would never choose to have gay friend especially a "flamboyant" one, but it would be a trectch for me to have a non-romantic female freind also, or at least a close one. And I still cringe whenever I see two guys kiss or be romantic, like I said it's not that I'm bigoted towards, gays it's just that I can't help it but to think of myself in that situation and how much I wouldn't like it, where as two women together is exotic (or erotic :) ) to me.

Choice is a very complex issue as we are exceptionally complex creatures. I don't claim to have the answers that you seek. Do you have them? How do you know we don't choose what turns us on? Experience. Why is it that I used to not like Asian women and only liked white girls? Now I can't stand the majority of white girls and adore Asian women! Why? Experience. Was I born that way? To not like, then to like? No. Experience. I think this could also be applicable in this argument as well (of course, not in all cases!).

From my limited knowledge, most gay people do not choose to be gay, but they are not born that way either. I think most gay people have something in their past, usually very young childhood that spurred them to be gay, two of my cousins, who are brothers, were molested very young. One tried to kill himself and the other ended up being gay. I really don't think there is even near enough info to make an argument one way or the other on this subject.

I don't know, sounds like you're shallow.

I don't see how someone having a race preference makes someone shallow, everyone has a race preference, anyone who says they don't are lying.

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Bunk. The "anti" prefix can be often too stroing, or misused. If somebody disagrees with something does that mean they are "anti"?

Uh, yeah. "Anti" means "not in favor of" or "opposed to". If you disagree with something, it's a good guess that you don't support it either.

So if I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, am I anti-gay? Does that make me "homophobic"? No. If I was afraid of gay people, maybe I'd be homophobic. Disagreeing with something doesn't automatically make you an anti- or a -phobe.

Not exactly. What most people fear is not gay people themselves, but gay S-E-X. That is a phobia. Of course being gay isn't all about sex, but that is the first thought many people have in their heads.

Joe likes soccer, you don't. Does that make you a Joe-o-phobe, or an Anti-Joe? No. You might prefer a different sport. I have a good friend that happens to be gay, admittedly by choice. I don't agree with that lifestyle selection. But that is his business. I am neither afraid of him, nor offended by his choice. I do not attempt to coerce him, oppress him, or otherwise get him to change that, though he knows how I stand on the issue. If I said, "I absolutely hate gays, will never have a gay friend, and they are all wrong" that would be intolerant or perhaps discriminatory. So am I having my cake and eating it too? Am I hating the sin but loving the sinner? The two are not necessarily related.

Liking soccer over football or NASCAR is a preference, of course. But that has squat to do with being gay. Sexuality is fluid. This is true for many people. Your choice of white women then Asian women is an example of that fluidity. However, your friend's experiences do not speak for every gay person. He is a good example of a person trying to find happiness, which we all do. Some of us find that with the opposite sex and some of us with the same sex. Some of us find it with everyone! But that is his journey.

As for choice, I didn't choose to be straight. I just am. I didn't choose to be straight any more than you did. (Or did you??? :D ) People don't choose to be gay. Sometimes it takes us time find where we feel comfortable, but that doesn't make that ultimate decision a choice.

If you were to label me, would that not then make you the intolerant one? Be cautious of your generalizations and definitions. I do see your point though, and it would certainly be applicable to many, not all.

That makes me intolerant of what? Bigotry? I'll explain further why I started this thread. I believe that you are free to disagree with gay "lifestyles" if you so choose. What I don't understand is why people refuse to accept responsibility for their choice to not fully accept people for who they are. If you cannot accept people then at least have the courage of conviction to accept what that means. It is bigoted and intolerant. That isn't a label, it is the definition of the word(s). It is true. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot be both accepting of a person AND (un)accepting of who they are.

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monsoon    0

I think this thread is getting a little ridiculous. First, monsoon, it is more than possible to tolerate (and not hate or even dislike) gays but not want to be their best freinds.

I never said you had to be. I don't base friendships on sexual orientation and no one is saying that acceptance of Gays means you need to go out and be friends with them. Like all people, you are going to find Gays that you can't stand to be around, just like straight people. Just becase a person is straight, are you friends with them?

I would never choose to have gay friend especially a "flamboyant" one

If you choose to pre-judge people of not being worthy of your friendship because they are Gay, then I would say that is your loss. Keep in mind that we all don't go around town carrying pocketbooks and walking in heels which is another stereotype put forth to justify bigotry towards Gays. In any case, I have found that including people in my life is a lot better than sitting by myself on an island called judgement.

If you think this thread is ridiculous, then you don't really have to participate in it. There is no good defense againt bigotry and being called ridiculous doesn't work either.

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dubone    622

I think everyone has a choice in what they do, for most cases. That doesn't mean people aren't predisposed by nurture or nature to do something, but behavior is always a choice. I think it is valid for people to be opposed or debate the morality of certain behavior that people do. A society that revokes the right to oppose behavior on moral grounds would be anarchical and unhealthy.

The key is that some actions are self destructive and socially destructive. Some people are predisposed to violence, pedophilia, binge eating, binge drinking, you name it. Every vice and crime could be justified if our society starts saying that as long as you feel predisposed to doing it, it is okay. Some people are naturally attracted to beautiful blondes, but does that mean that it is okay for them to pursue a sexual relationship with my wife?

Clearly there are examples where there is a moral imperative to overcome internal urges, and make a choice to do something different. So, I support the philosophical right to oppose behavior and to classify all behavior as a choice. However, I think moral opposition to homosexuality is usually misdirected.

For much of the common era, homosexual activity has existed primarily in seedy forms. General society might only be aware of it by stories of pedophilia, or anonymous and/or non-monogamous sex among adults. Those kinds of sexual activity are also morally opposed by most in their heterosexual form. I don't think it is fair to label people negatively when they are expressing their moral structure equally to homosexual and heterosexual behavior.

We are clearly in a cultural transition. Now that gays are being more universally accepted, there is a chance to be more free and open. Now, homosexual orientation can play out in a less seedy, more monogamous and healthy form. As people in general society become more aware of the healthy homosexual relationships, people will be significantly less likely to be anti-gay.

By the way, I am morally opposed to people having sex with children and with strangers, regardless of gender combinations. I think there are plenty of arguments for why healthy homosexual relationships are moral and healthy for society. Personally, I hope that as a society we can stick to those, rather than diminishing our sense of choice and morality.

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monsoon    0

Keep in mind the majority of pedophiles are straight. It amazing to me that these perverted people get brought into conversations about Gays. It has nothing to do with it.

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dpbaker    1

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen, but sadly, it is somewhat necessary to discuss these issues from time to time.

DPBaker... so what, you're a Geneticist... that makes you the all-knowing figure in the room about whether homosexuality is a choice? I'm sorry, I find your argument bull. "I'm a geneticist and I have a friend who CHOSE to be gay." You're one geneticist, and you have ONE friend.

And yes, I get really sick of people who say "I don't agree with homosexuality, but I don't hate gay people." I agree that it is possible, but I still think that given the chance, you'd be much more likely to oppress gay people, especially if the government condoned such behavior.

Our society is just moving through all the categories. Kind of a "well, we got our right to hate that group taken away, so let's focus ona different one". First it was women, then blacks, now it's gays. When we finally throw that bigotry out the window, we'll probably hate fat people. I can already see it coming. The scary thing is, is that if we hate fat people... we'll finally be bigoted against the majority.

Did you ever sit down and maybe think "Gee, maybe I am wrong. Maybe gay people really are normal people just like me. Hell, they might even be some-group-o-phobic."

Go back and read it again before you spout off. I'm NOT a geneticist, I WORK with a few geneticists that don't conceed to Metro's purported overhelming evidence, whatever that might be. Point being, is that not all geneticists are convinced of a genetic link, whereas some are. Where did it say I was all-knowing? Do you even bother to read entire posts, or are you simply so blind to the ideas and opinons not your own that you see selectively? I never said that it couldn't be genetic, or a person couldn't be born gay. I do believe some people are born that way!!! So what? I don't care, it's not a fault, their fault, not faulting them for it!! Not condemning or hating them for it!! Not oppressing them for it. I also believe it can be a choice as in that of my friend's. It is so many of you in this thread that don't seem to want to believe that. Talk about shallow and closed....sheesh!!!

Have I ever sat down and thought, "Gee maybe I'm wrong?" Wrong about what? Go back and read again my friend, not sure how I could be any more clear on the issue, or where I stand, how I view it. Have you ever sat down and thought, "Gee, maybe I could be a little more open-minded, and less quick to judge...."

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monsoon    0

Have you ever sat down and thought, "Gee, maybe I could be a little more open-minded, and less quick to judge...."

Heh, When someone says they disapprove of you, can't give a rational reason for doing so and has no intention of changing their judgement, then there really isn't any point in trying to accept their position. Being open minded does not mean that you have to be understanding of bigotry.

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